Paul, James and Sotereology

[Walpole]

Sin is a 'positive act'?

Doesn't matter how incapable infants are in making a decision to sin. Sin is imputed to the whole race of Adam. If you're born of Adam you're a sinner. From day one.

Quantrill

"Positive" as in an act / power of the will. Actual sin requires an act of the will.

Infants are not capable of committing actual sin because they do not possess the full facilities of their will. To believe that man sins just by the fact that he is man renders God the author of sin. With each subsequent conception, the God of Calvinism would be bringing more sin (and therefore evil) into the world.

Once again, the reason why infants and all of us die is because we suffer the effects of original sin.

Romans 5:12 ---> "It was through one man that guilt came into the world; and, since death came owing to guilt, death was handed on to all mankind by one man."


If death, as you are arguing, is due to actual sin, then our Blessed Lord would have been a sinner, as He too suffered death.

 

[Butch5]

Death comes by the highway Sin. (Rom. 5:12) It comes through Adam due to the imputation of Adams sin to his race. So, again, why do infants die if they are not sinners.

Quantrill

People die because sin came into the world, not because they receive the guilt of Adam's sin.

Firstly, sinner is a verb. In order to be a sinner one must sin. Thus one cannot be born a sinner.

Also, the Scriptures tell is that a person will not die for the sins of their fathers, but for their own sins.

 

[Quantrill]

"Positive" as in an act / power of the will. Actual sin requires an act of the will.

Infants are not capable of committing actual sin because they do not possess the full facilities of their will. To believe that man sins just by the fact that he is man renders God the author of sin. With each subsequent conception, the God of Calvinism would be bringing more sin (and therefore evil) into the world.

Once again, the reason why infants and all of us die is because we suffer the effects of original sin.

Romans 5:12 ---> "It was through one man that guilt came into the world; and, since death came owing to guilt, death was handed on to all mankind by one man."


If death, as you are arguing, is due to actual sin, then our Blessed Lord would have been a sinner, as He too suffered death.

You're ignoring God's imputation of sin upon the human race. It required only the will of Adam. Just like the 'righteousness' that you as a believer are covered in. It required the imputation and will of Christ.

Infants die because they are sinners in Adam. Just like those died between Adam and Moses. It was only because of Adam's sin. Not theirs. (Rom. 5:14)

You want to follow man's reasoning about sin and not God's. Consider (Heb. 7:4-10) Levi was long after Abraham. Yet when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec, God says Levi paid tithes also, because he was yet in the loins of Abraham. This makes the Melchisedec priesthood greater than the Levitical priesthood. Do you agree?

So, you see? These things are so because God says they are so irregardless of human emotion and feeling. These things are so because God will act on what He says is so.

The affects of original sin is that we are born sinners.

I am saying when God imputes sin or does not impute sin, then that is the way it is. God imputed sin to Adams race. Thus we are born sinners.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

People die because sin came into the world, not because they receive the guilt of Adam's sin.

Firstly, sinner is a verb. In order to be a sinner one must sin. Thus one cannot be born a sinner.

Also, the Scriptures tell is that a person will not die for the sins of their fathers, but for their own sins.

If they were not guilty of Adam's sin those between Adam and Moses would not have died. (Rom. 5:14).

Sin can be a noun or a verb. See Vines dictionary.

Ones individual sins are immaterial to the imputation of Adam's sin to the human race. Individual sins are the result of being born a sinner due to Adam's sin.

Quantrill

 

[Walpole]

You're ignoring God's imputation of sin upon the human race. It required only the will of Adam. Just like the 'righteousness' that you as a believer are covered in. It required the imputation and will of Christ.

Infants die because they are sinners in Adam. Just like those died between Adam and Moses. It was only because of Adam's sin. Not theirs. (Rom. 5:14)

You want to follow man's reasoning about sin and not God's. Consider (Heb. 7:4-10) Levi was long after Abraham. Yet when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec, God says Levi paid tithes also, because he was yet in the loins of Abraham. This makes the Melchisedec priesthood greater than the Levitical priesthood. Do you agree?

So, you see? These things are so because God says they are so irregardless of human emotion and feeling. These things are so because God will act on what He says is so.

The affects of original sin is that we are born sinners.

I am saying when God imputes sin or does not impute sin, then that is the way it is. God imputed sin to Adams race. Thus we are born sinners.

Quantrill

You are giving a master class in circular logic.

If God imputes sin, then God is the author of sin and would therefore be wicked. A God who can be wicked is a Calvinist (and Islamic) attribute of God, not a Christian one. The God of Christianity is good. He is Logos and does not act with pure will.

Furthermore, if death is the result of a person having actual sin, then you render Jesus Christ a sinner by virtue of the fact that He suffered death.

 

[Butch5]

If they were not guilty of Adam's sin those between Adam and Moses would not have died. (Rom. 5:14).

Once death entered the world all would die. Animals didn't sin, yet they still died. Surely they didn't inherit Adam's sin. The creation is under the curse at the present time. Thus all living things die.

Sin can be a noun or a verb. See Vines dictionary.

Sin, yes. But we're talking about sinner.

Ones individual sins are immaterial to the imputation of Adam's sin to the human race. Individual sins are the result of being born a sinner due to Adam's sin.

Quantrill

But you haven't given an argument for this imputation.

 

[Walpole]

If man is imputed with sin, there is nothing to repent of. Man would simply be acting in accordance with how God made him. If God made you totally depraved and imputed you with sin, it's God's fault and He should be the one repenting for making you that way.

 

[for_his_glory]

You've got to be kidding me. (James 2:14) "...can faith save him?"

Quantrill

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Seems that what is written in those verses in Ephesians it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved as we can do nothing of our self to earn it. Faith does come with it the good works of faith so it never dies within us. What does it prophet our faith if we do not continue in the good works Christ called us to walk in.

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[for_his_glory]

If the price hasn't been paid, there can be no forgiveness.

You need to study Hebrews 9:11-58 about redemption through the blood of Christ in whom kept the law fulfilling it from before the foundation of the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

The only reason they died was because of Adam's sin. Not theirs. Imputation. Even though God did not impute their own sins to them, they died because God did impute Adam's sin to them. (Rom. 5:13-14)

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Notice the word similitude in vs. 14 which means similar to Adam's sin, not we being imputed with it, but sinning like Adam did in disobedience to God's commands. No one can be held accountable for another persons sin.

Dispensationalist, like Calvinism love to make scripture fit their theologies, but we can clearly see that verse says nothing about imputed sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God imputed Adam's sin to all of his race. Thus, if you are born of Adam, you are born a sinner. I stated before that we are not responsible for the imputation, as it is a work of God. We are however guilty of our sins.

You will not find scripture supporting the above.
When Adam disobeyed, he lost the absence of concupiscense.
So all of Adam's offspring were born with concupiscense...this is also called the sin nature...or the flesh.
We are all born with this sin nature which tends toward sin and does not consider God.

We are however guilty of our sins, as you've stated.
This is correct...but we are only guilty of our own sins.
I've provided sufficient scripture for this.
Romans 5:13----does not support your idea of imputation of Adam's sin.
I went through it verse by verse...

There are three great imputations done by God in His work of salvation. 1.) The imputation of Adam's sin to the human race. (Rom. 5:12-14) (5:18) 2.) The imputation of sins of the human race to Christ. (Lev. 16:5-15) (16:20-22) (2 Cor. 5:21) ( 3.) The imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. (2 Cor. 5:21) (Rom. 5:19)

Agreed with 2 and 3. This is biblical theology.
I've never heard of 1 and you seem to be unable to provide any scripture for this idea.
Maybe you're just a big fan of Augustine.

So, to clarify. God is responsible for the imputations just mentioned. He didn't ask me or you if we wanted to be born a sinner. We are born that way because He imputed Adams sin to us. We are guilty of it. We are born sinners.

We are born with the sin nature...
We are not born sinners.

To be a sin, we must be aware that we are sinning.
A baby and/or child does not know about sin.
They sin,,,but they cannot be held accountable for it because they are not aware of sinning.
At some point in their maturity, they become aware of sin, or are taught about it, and from that time
their disobedience to God's laws will become sin for them.

Because we are born a sinner, we sin. But yes, we are responsible and guilty of those sins. Just because Adams sin is imputed to us, making us sinners, doesn't remove our guilt for our sins we commit. And, just because one may hit a streak where they don't believe they have sinned, doesn't remove their guilt of Adam's sin. We carry that to the grave.

You're getting the SIN NATURE, CONCUPISCENSE, or THE FLESH -- conflated with sinning.
No adult believes they have never sinned (that I know of).

I have said before that this is the best thing God could do. Because He counts all guilty in one man, Adam, He can redeem all in One Man Christ, the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:22) (1 Cor. 15:45)

This is true,,,but for mature persons, as I've stated above.

This is also called the doctrine of Federal Headship. The one represents the many. It is only in this way that Christ could die for all. Otherwise He could have only died for one.

Quantrill

Let me ask you this:
God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door ready to control him...
But Cain was told he must subdue sin and be its master.

Can a child subdue sin and be its master?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post! Many conflate the effects of original sin with actual sin.

Only in Calvinism is just being alive and existing itself a sinful act. It says a lot about their concept of God.

Amen!
Calvinism changes the nature of God.
The God worshipped in the reformed faith is unknown to me and is not
the God that I serve.

The God I serve is loving, merciful, and just.

The God of calvinism is none of the above.

 

[for_his_glory]

I stated before that we are not responsible for the imputation, as it is a work of God.

If I am understanding you correctly are you saying that God put Adams sin within all of us when we were created in His image?

 

[for_his_glory]

We are all born with a sin nature because of Adam's disobedience and not imputed with Adam's sin as scripture does not support this, but Romans 5:13-14 says we sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression, which means as Adam we walk in disobedience to God's commands when we sin. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


But, if we willfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for sins we commit as it will bring with it consequences brought upon our self.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[for_his_glory]

You're ignoring God's imputation of sin upon the human race. It required only the will of Adam. Just like the 'righteousness' that you as a believer are covered in. It required the imputation and will of Christ.

You are ignoring what has already been written in the scriptures as many of us have shown you as you are more grounded in what these theories Dispensationalist have taught you that come against the scriptures as you have yet to show any of us scripture that states we are imputed with Adam's sin, but yet we have shown you many that say we are responsible for our own sin when we walk in disobedience to God's commands.

We are not against you as you are our brother in Christ, but trying to show you truth through the scriptures for what is already written. You need to drop the sarcastic remarks towards others and discuss this like a mature adult with a heart of learning what Christ has already taught from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Quantrill]

You are giving a master class in circular logic.

If God imputes sin, then God is the author of sin and would therefore be wicked. A God who can be wicked is a Calvinist (and Islamic) attribute of God, not a Christian one. The God of Christianity is good. He is Logos and does not act with pure will.

Furthermore, if death is the result of a person having actual sin, then you render Jesus Christ a sinner by virtue of the fact that He suffered death.

In other words, you have no response. I asked you a question concerning (Hebrews 7:4-10) Did Levi pay tithes in Abraham? (7:9-10)

God imputes sin and God doesn't impute sin. (Rom. 5:13) It's His plan, not mine.

Your arguing with the Bible, not me. I showed you that death comes by sin. (Rom. 5:12) Very elementary. (Gen. 2:17) That is how death comes. When sin is imputed, the person will die.

When God imputed the sin of the human race to Christ, Jesus Christ became sin. (2 Cor. 5:21). Thus the world is reconciled to God as God has imputed their sins to Christ. (2 Cor. 5:19)

As I have already said, this is the best thing God can do for man.

Infants die because they are guilty of Adams sin. As soon as they are born death is working in them.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Once death entered the world all would die. Animals didn't sin, yet they still died. Surely they didn't inherit Adam's sin. The creation is under the curse at the present time. Thus all living things die.

Sin, yes. But we're talking about sinner.

But you haven't given an argument for this imputation.

We are talking about Sin and the sinner. Sin is imputed. We are sinners because of that.

Both sin and sinner are nouns.

See again posts #(74), (83).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Seems that what is written in those verses in Ephesians it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved as we can do nothing of our self to earn it. Faith does come with it the good works of faith so it never dies within us. What does it prophet our faith if we do not continue in the good works Christ called us to walk in.

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Good verses.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You need to study Hebrews 9:11-58 about redemption through the blood of Christ in whom kept the law fulfilling it from before the foundation of the world.

OK. But if the price hasn't been paid, there will be no forgiveness.

God's forgiveness is not like man's forgiveness. Man's forgiveness is forgiving a wrong without making a person pay for it. God's forgiveness is always based upon the paid price, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Notice the word similitude in vs. 14 which means similar to Adam's sin, not we being imputed with it, but sinning like Adam did in disobedience to God's commands. No one can be held accountable for another persons sin.

Dispensationalist, like Calvinism love to make scripture fit their theologies, but we can clearly see that verse says nothing about imputed sin.

Why did death reign when God did not impute their sins to them? Why did they die? Don't say because they were sinners, because God says He did not impute their sins to them.

They died because of Adams sin imputed to them by God. (Rom. 5:18).

That is not what God says. We are all guilty in Adam. (Rom. 5:12) Then He illustrates with (Rom. 5:13-14).

I am not aware that Calvin was a Dispensationalist.

Quantrill