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Paul, James and Sotereology

Quantrill

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James 2:14-26 is about faith being without works is dead faith that will never be built upon and strengthen. It's our walk of faith as we walk in the Spirit of God, not of salvation although this is the beginning part of faith as in when we first by faith believed in Christ.


SALVATION – delivered from sin, promise of our welfare brought about by faith in Christ Jesus.

Salvation means to be whole mind, body and soul as we surrender our will to God and allow his will to work in our lives by applying Gods word to every aspect of our lives. This allows us to know the mind of Christ and all the promises of God for our own well being so we can face anything that tries to come against us while here on this earth so we can triumph and be victorious through the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.​

That's fine. Believe as you wish. You asked me what I believed concerning (James 2:14-26) and I told you.

Quantrill
 

wondering

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No, it says their sins were not imputed to them as they were not under law. So forget their individual sins.

But they died. Why? Because of Adams sin. Adams sin was imputed to them.

Babies are lost at birth because they are guilty of Adam's sin.

Quantrill
You said that they died because of Adam's sin.
RIGHT!
But this is an EFFECT of Adam's sin...
it is not imputation of his sin.

We are all responsible only for our own sins.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Galatians 6:5
Luke 12:47
 

wondering

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Did you read the Scriptures I gave. Apparently not.

(Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

(Rom. 5:13) "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression....."

Do you see? From Adam to Moses all those people did not die because of their sins. They died because of Adams sin. God did not impute their sins to them as they were under no law. He did impute Adams sin to them, so they died.
Which is why babies die today. They are born with Adams sin.

Quantrill
Quantrill,
I think Romans 5:13 is not saying what you've stated above.

Romans 5:12-13
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Verse 12 Through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world. Physical death spread to all men because all men sinned.

Verse 13 Sin was always in the world, even when there was no law. The law did not exist until Moses but humanity still existed.
So where there is no law,,,sin cannot be imputed, that is, a person cannot be responsible for a sin if there was no law. However, every person still died a physical death - even those who did not disobey a commandment of God as Adam had done.

Q...it's really saying the opposite of what you posted...
please read it again.
 

for_his_glory

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Why are you arguing with me then? Where did I say Jesus forgave all our sins, past and future. What I have said is there is a difference between Jesus paying the price for sin and Jesus being our Advocate. Paying the price and forgiveness are two separate actions. Jesus can forgive because He has paid the price.

All the verses you gave are good verses. They add nothing to your 'argument'.

Quantrill
Not arguing, just answering the question you asked in your post #42. I never said you said all our sins are forgiven, past present and future. I said that many teach this and never said that you do so quit reading into things that are not said.

BTW, Jesus forgave many their sins before He was crucified, Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:5-11
 

for_his_glory

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That's fine. Believe as you wish. You asked me what I believed concerning (James 2:14-26) and I told you.

Quantrill
Where is the word salvation found in James 2:14-26?

Sorry as I see nothing about salvation in those verses nor does it even use the word salvation, but is about faith and works of faith. Not sure how you tie that to salvation.

We do not walk in salvation, but to work out our salvation as we walk by faith and obedience to God's commands, Philippians 2:12-18. Salvation means deliverance from sin and its consequences that is brought about by faith in Christ.
 

Quantrill

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You said that they died because of Adam's sin.
RIGHT!
But this is an EFFECT of Adam's sin...
it is not imputation of his sin.

We are all responsible only for our own sins.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Galatians 6:5
Luke 12:47

How ridiculous. God did not impute their sins against them. The 'effect' as you say would have been just that. But that did not happen because God did not impute it.

The only reason they died was because of Adam's sin. Not theirs. Imputation. Even though God did not impute their own sins to them, they died because God did impute Adam's sin to them. (Rom. 5:13-14)

Quantrill
 

wondering

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How ridiculous. God did not impute their sins against them. The 'effect' as you say would have been just that. But that did not happen because God did not impute it.

The only reason they died was because of Adam's sin. Not theirs. Imputation. Even though God did not impute their own sins to them, they died because God did impute Adam's sin to them. (Rom. 5:13-14)

Quantrill
New Testament verses are ridiculous?
 

Quantrill

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Not arguing, just answering the question you asked in your post #42. I never said you said all our sins are forgiven, past present and future. I said that many teach this and never said that you do so quit reading into things that are not said.

BTW, Jesus forgave many their sins before He was crucified, Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:5-11

Just as God forgave many prior to the Crucifixion, based on the future Sacrifice of Christ. Point being, the payment for sin and the forgiveness of sin are two separate operations. Forgiveness of sin is only based on the Sacrifice. The price has been paid.

If the price hasn't been paid, there can be no forgiveness.

For example: God looks down and sees you or me on the earth as a sinner. He, being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, says 'we sure like this person. We would sure like him/her to be part of our family throughout eternity. But he/she is a great sinner. Surely we can forgive his/her sins and let them in.

NO. He cannot. His nature will not allow it. As soon as you and I enter His presence judgement would strike forth from Him like a lighting bolt. Unless the price has been paid, there can be no forgiveness.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Where is the word salvation found in James 2:14-26?

Sorry as I see nothing about salvation in those verses nor does it even use the word salvation, but is about faith and works of faith. Not sure how you tie that to salvation.

We do not walk in salvation, but to work out our salvation as we walk by faith and obedience to God's commands, Philippians 2:12-18. Salvation means deliverance from sin and its consequences that is brought about by faith in Christ.

You've got to be kidding me. (James 2:14) "...can faith save him?"

Quantrill
 

wondering

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No, your statements were.

Quantrill
That's very christianly of you,,
However, I was just quoting scripture.

If you believe we are not responsible for our own sins, would you be able to support your view with scripture?
 

Quantrill

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That's very christianly of you,,
However, I was just quoting scripture.

If you believe we are not responsible for our own sins, would you be able to support your view with scripture?

I have already shown you that we are not responsible for the sin of Adam being imputed to us. I gave you Scripture. You ignore it.

Quantrill
 

wondering

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I have already shown you that we are not responsible for the sin of Adam being imputed to us. I gave you Scripture. You ignore it.

Quantrill
???
I'm sorry Q but the above makes no sense to me..

Please answer this:

Are we imputed with Adam's sin?

Yes or No.

I say No.
The verses I provided support this, and there are more
 

Quantrill

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???
I'm sorry Q but the above makes no sense to me..

Please answer this:

Are we imputed with Adam's sin?

Yes or No.

I say No.
The verses I provided support this, and there are more

Yes, God imputed Adam's sin to all of his race. Thus, if you are born of Adam, you are born a sinner. I stated before that we are not responsible for the imputation, as it is a work of God. We are however guilty of our sins.

There are three great imputations done by God in His work of salvation. 1.) The imputation of Adam's sin to the human race. (Rom. 5:12-14) (5:18) 2.) The imputation of sins of the human race to Christ. (Lev. 16:5-15) (16:20-22) (2 Cor. 5:21) ( 3.) The imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. (2 Cor. 5:21) (Rom. 5:19)

So, to clarify. God is responsible for the imputations just mentioned. He didn't ask me or you if we wanted to be born a sinner. We are born that way because He imputed Adams sin to us. We are guilty of it. We are born sinners.

Because we are born a sinner, we sin. But yes, we are responsible and guilty of those sins. Just because Adams sin is imputed to us, making us sinners, doesn't remove our guilt for our sins we commit. And, just because one may hit a streak where they don't believe they have sinned, doesn't remove their guilt of Adam's sin. We carry that to the grave.

I have said before that this is the best thing God could do. Because He counts all guilty in one man, Adam, He can redeem all in One Man Christ, the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:22) (1 Cor. 15:45)

This is also called the doctrine of Federal Headship. The one represents the many. It is only in this way that Christ could die for all. Otherwise He could have only died for one.

Quantrill
 

Walpole

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You said that they died because of Adam's sin.
RIGHT!
But this is an EFFECT of Adam's sin...
it is not imputation of his sin.

We are all responsible only for our own sins.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Galatians 6:5
Luke 12:47
Good post! Many conflate the effects of original sin with actual sin.

Only in Calvinism is just being alive and existing itself a sinful act. It says a lot about their concept of God.
 

Quantrill

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Good post! Many conflate the effects of original sin with actual sin.

Only in Calvinism is just being alive and existing itself a sinful act. It says a lot about their concept of God.

Especially infants who have died. Begs the question, if we are not born sinners, why do infants die?

I never mentioned Calvinism.

Quantrill
 

Walpole

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Especially infants who have died. Begs the question, if we are not born sinners, why do infants die?

I never mentioned Calvinism.

Quantrill

Sin is a positive act contrary to the law of God. (1 John 3:4) Infants do not have full use of their faculties and thus by definition are incapable of making a positive act contrary to the law of God. Infants are therefore incapable of committing sin and there is none as so innocent as an infant.

images.jpeg

The reason infants and all die is because we suffer the effects of original sin.

After the fall ---> Genesis 3:19 ---> "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19)
 

Quantrill

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Because death entered through Adam.

Death comes by the highway Sin. (Rom. 5:12) It comes through Adam due to the imputation of Adams sin to his race. So, again, why do infants die if they are not sinners.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Sin is a positive act contrary to the law of God. (1 John 3:4) Infants do not have full use of their faculties and thus by definition are incapable of making a positive act contrary to the law of God. Infants are therefore incapable of committing sin and there is none as so innocent as an infant.

View attachment 11899

The reason infants and all die is because we suffer the effects of original sin.

After the fall ---> Genesis 3:19 ---> "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19)

Sin is a 'positive act'?

Doesn't matter how incapable infants are in making a decision to sin. Sin is imputed to the whole race of Adam. If you're born of Adam you're a sinner. From day one.

Quantrill
 
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