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Paul, James and Sotereology

Quantrill

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You will not find scripture supporting the above.
When Adam disobeyed, he lost the absence of concupiscense.
So all of Adam's offspring were born with concupiscense...this is also called the sin nature...or the flesh.
We are all born with this sin nature which tends toward sin and does not consider God.

We are however guilty of our sins, as you've stated.
This is correct...but we are only guilty of our own sins.
I've provided sufficient scripture for this.
Romans 5:13----does not support your idea of imputation of Adam's sin.
I went through it verse by verse...



Agreed with 2 and 3. This is biblical theology.
I've never heard of 1 and you seem to be unable to provide any scripture for this idea.
Maybe you're just a big fan of Augustine.



We are born with the sin nature...
We are not born sinners.

To be a sin, we must be aware that we are sinning.
A baby and/or child does not know about sin.
They sin,,,but they cannot be held accountable for it because they are not aware of sinning.
At some point in their maturity, they become aware of sin, or are taught about it, and from that time
their disobedience to God's laws will become sin for them.



You're getting the SIN NATURE, CONCUPISCENSE, or THE FLESH -- conflated with sinning.
No adult believes they have never sinned (that I know of).



This is true,,,but for mature persons, as I've stated above.


Let me ask you this:
God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door ready to control him...
But Cain was told he must subdue sin and be its master.

Can a child subdue sin and be its master?

I have given Scripture and explanation.

(Rom. 5:12-14) does support the imputation of Adams sin to the human race. (5:12) declares it. (5:13-14) illustrates and explains it.

Babies don't have to know about sin to be born guilty of Adam's sin. It doesn't matter.

Whether a child or infant can subdue sin is immaterial to Adam's sin being imputed to the human race.

If you reject this imputation of Adams sin to the human race, then why do you accept the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer? If man was not imputed with Adam's sin, then every man is on his own. He is not a sinner until he sins. Christ cannot die for all in One Man if all are not guilty in one man. He can die for one. Who will it be...you maybe?

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

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OK. But if the price hasn't been paid, there will be no forgiveness.

God's forgiveness is not like man's forgiveness. Man's forgiveness is forgiving a wrong without making a person pay for it. God's forgiveness is always based upon the paid price, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Quantrill
The price was paid before the foundation of the world with God's plan of salvation through the shed blood of Christ when the time of fulness would come for He to sacrifice Himself for everyone who would by God's grace through faith come to Him with a heart of repentance to be made clean again by God's righteousness.

It has always been a blood sacrifice God has made beginning with making coats of animal skins (blood sacrifice) to clothe Adam and Eve's shame. From the laws given to Moses it was the blood of bulls, calves and goats sacrificed once a year to make atonement for sin. Jesus came to fulfill the Temple law of blood sacrifice by His blood to make the way for everyone to be able to reconcile themselves back to God.

Genesis3:21 Hebrews 9:11-28; 10:1-27
 

for_his_glory

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God's forgiveness is not like man's forgiveness. Man's forgiveness is forgiving a wrong without making a person pay for it.
Why would man make anyone pay a price in order to forgive them? Not following you here.

Whether it's God forgiving us, or us forgiving one another it is all the same forgiveness. Like God we forgive and remember their sin no more.
 

for_his_glory

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In other words, you have no response. I asked you a question concerning (Hebrews 7:4-10) Did Levi pay tithes in Abraham? (7:9-10)

God imputes sin and God doesn't impute sin. (Rom. 5:13) It's His plan, not mine.

Your arguing with the Bible, not me. I showed you that death comes by sin. (Rom. 5:12) Very elementary. (Gen. 2:17) That is how death comes. When sin is imputed, the person will die.

When God imputed the sin of the human race to Christ, Jesus Christ became sin. (2 Cor. 5:21). Thus the world is reconciled to God as God has imputed their sins to Christ. (2 Cor. 5:19)

As I have already said, this is the best thing God can do for man.

Infants die because they are guilty of Adams sin. As soon as they are born death is working in them.

Quantrill
How can Christ be imputed with sin by God when Christ was/is sinless. You are making God out to be evil who puts sin on His only begotten Son who knew no sin. Christ did not take our sin upon himself, but nailed it to the cross as He made reconciliation back to God in His righteousness that we are clothed in.

(Parentheses add by me for clarification as they do not add to or take away from what is written)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and (Spiritual) death by sin; and so (Spiritual) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Read this again without your preconceived ideas.
 

for_his_glory

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Why did death reign when God did not impute their sins to them? Why did they die? Don't say because they were sinners, because God says He did not impute their sins to them.

They died because of Adams sin imputed to them by God. (Rom. 5:18).

That is not what God says. We are all guilty in Adam. (Rom. 5:12) Then He illustrates with (Rom. 5:13-14).

I am not aware that Calvin was a Dispensationalist.

Quantrill
Something that has not come up within the conversations is that there are two deaths. One is Spiritual death in which we have lost that Spiritual fellowship with God by our own sin and then there is physical death and after that the judgement, Hebrews 9:24-28

It's about Spiritual death as like Adam who walked in disobedience to God's command lost the fellowship with God when he sinned. What was imputed to all is Spiritual death walking in disobedience that causes us to fall short of God's glory, thus the need of God's grace given freely to us by faith that is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

I don't know if Calvin was or wasn't a Dispensationalist as God does not recognize Calvinism nor Dispensationalist or the indoctrination of any organized religions. All God is interested in is that we have a personal relationship with His Son Christ Jesus.

Imputed and similitude are not the same thing.
 
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for_his_glory

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I am saying when Adam fell God imputed his sin to all of his race. His children are all born sinners.

Quantrill
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Please show us where the word imputed is found in this verse.

All have fallen short of the glory of the Lord after the "similitude" of Adams sin which was disobedience to God's command. This is why we fall short because of the nature to sin, not because of Adams sin as no one is accountable for another persons sin.
 

Quantrill

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The price was paid before the foundation of the world with God's plan of salvation through the shed blood of Christ when the time of fulness would come for He to sacrifice Himself for everyone who would by God's grace through faith come to Him with a heart of repentance to be made clean again by God's righteousness.

It has always been a blood sacrifice God has made beginning with making coats of animal skins (blood sacrifice) to clothe Adam and Eve's shame. From the laws given to Moses it was the blood of bulls, calves and goats sacrificed once a year to make atonement for sin. Jesus came to fulfill the Temple law of blood sacrifice by His blood to make the way for everyone to be able to reconcile themselves back to God.

Genesis3:21 Hebrews 9:11-28; 10:1-27

That is my point. God's forgiveness is always based upon the price being paid. He does not forgive by just letting anything go.

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Quantrill

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Why would man make anyone pay a price in order to forgive them? Not following you here.

Whether it's God forgiving us, or us forgiving one another it is all the same forgiveness. Like God we forgive and remember their sin no more.

That's my point. Man doesn't. If someone does me wrong and I seek to right that wrong against him in whatever way I can, and accomplish it, then I cannot say I forgive you now. Because I didn't forgive him. I made sure he paid for it.

I disagree. When God forgives it is based upon all having been payed for in Christ. You may exercise your forgiveness, but you can't not remember. You can forgive but not forget. That is a trait only God can accomplish.

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Quantrill

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How can Christ be imputed with sin by God when Christ was/is sinless. You are making God out to be evil who puts sin on His only begotten Son who knew no sin. Christ did not take our sin upon himself, but nailed it to the cross as He made reconciliation back to God in His righteousness that we are clothed in.

(Parentheses add by me for clarification as they do not add to or take away from what is written)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and (Spiritual) death by sin; and so (Spiritual) death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Read this again without your preconceived ideas.

I disagree with your accusation that I am making God out to be evil.

(2 Cor. 5:21) says God "hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;" You ask me how? He imputed sin to Christ. Just because it is horrible that this takes place, it isn't evil. It is what God must do if you and I are to be saved. I am surprised at your statement that Christ did not take our sin upon Himself.

This was what Christ shrank back from. (Matt. 26:39) "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:" Why did he use the word 'cup'? Because cup speaks to communion. (1 Cor. 10:16) Communion speaks to common union. Christ dreaded the communion he would have on the Cross. Communion with what? Sin, and the evil behind it. No one knows the horror that Christ went through. But it wasn't just the physical pain. It was He who knew no sin being made sin for us.

This is why Christ spoke of the cross being identified with Moses serpent on the pole. (Num. 21:9) (John 3:14) The very thing that was killing the people, the serpent, was on the pole. The same is true with the Cross. This is the cup that Christ recoiled from.

You speak of my 'preconceived' ideas and yet add your words into the Scripture. It is not just 'spiritual' death. It is death.

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Quantrill

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Something that has not come up within the conversations is that there are two deaths. One is Spiritual death in which we have lost that Spiritual fellowship with God by our own sin and then there is physical death and after that the judgement, Hebrews 9:24-28

It's about Spiritual death as like Adam who walked in disobedience to God's command lost the fellowship with God when he sinned. What was imputed to all is Spiritual death walking in disobedience that causes us to fall short of God's glory, thus the need of God's grace given freely to us by faith that is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

I don't know if Calvin was or wasn't a Dispensationalist as God does not recognize Calvinism nor Dispensationalist or the indoctrination of any organized religions. All God is interested in is that we have a personal relationship with His Son Christ Jesus.

Imputed and similitude are not the same thing.

(Rom. 5:12-14) is not talking about 'spiritual death'.

And, your attempt to make it spiritual death is counter productive. If you're saying man is born spiritually dead, then he is equally physically going to die. Adam may not have died physically at the moment he sinned, but death was now working in him and he was going to die.

Does (Deut. 24:16) mean you must pay for your own sins?

You're the one making some argument about comparison of 'imputation' with 'similitude'. I haven't.

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Quantrill

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Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Please show us where the word imputed is found in this verse.

All have fallen short of the glory of the Lord after the "similitude" of Adams sin which was disobedience to God's command. This is why we fall short because of the nature to sin, not because of Adams sin as no one is accountable for another persons sin.

You don't need the word there to have imputation described. Just as with the Trinity. Imputation is the subject however as (5:13) says and uses the word.

Your interpretation, if that is what it is, of (Rom. 5:14) is very misleading. (5:14) is saying they had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression. What was the similitude of Adam's transgression? By commandment. Adam was under a law. Those after Adam were not under law. They did not sin as Adam sinned.

And, as (5:13) clearly states, "but sin is not imputed when there is no law" God did not impute their sins to them.

(Rom. 5:14) "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression...."

They died anyway. Why did they die? Not for their sins, as God did not impute their sins to them. They died because of Adams sin, which was imputed to them.

Quantrill
 

wondering

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They died anyway. Why did they die? Not for their sins, as God did not impute their sins to them. They died because of Adams sin, which was imputed to them.
God did not impute THEIR OWN sins to them....
But He imputed Adam's sin to them?

Could you just post some verse that states that God imputed Adam's sin to the whole human race?

This is an important concept.

If you're right, then Augustine was right and all of Christian theologians for 400 years after Jesus were wrong...
and babies better get baptized right away in case they should die....which is what Augustine taught.

Are you saying you agree with Augustine?

If you do, I can disagree, but accept your "theory".
If you do not agree with Augustine,,,then you have to come up with some source of your belief.
We can't just make up our own theories.
 

Randy

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I think James had some difficulty letting go a righteousness by law.

Acts 21 seems to suggest this.
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
He got Paul caught up in this.
Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law
Seemed to appease Paul's stance with grace with this.
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

But we know Gods chosen.
Acts 23:11
The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, "Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome

Its clear to me Paul saw all the law as law, (as I also do), and Paul considered the law in judgments he made such as, "“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."
 

JLB

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Adam was under a law. Those after Adam were not under law. They did not sin as Adam sinned.

Those after Adam were under the law of sin and death, as much so as the law of gravity.

The law of sin and death is an eternal law, that effected Lucifer before the earth was created.

Adam was under the law of sin and death, like everyone else who came after him.

Paul using two different law’s to create his legal argument because though this letter is addressed to the Church at Rome, he is focusing on the Jewish Christians among them so as to help them gain understanding; to help them understand the different between the law of faith, the law of Moses, and the law of sin and death.


Paul understood that Jews who had converted, were better equipped
to be trained as teachers, to help teach the Gentiles within the community. He was also faced with the challenge of keeping the Jewish converts from teaching the Gentiles they must keep the law of Moses and become circumcised. Which was another challenge he was facing.


My point: we need to understand that “the law” refers to the law of Moses and “law” refers to law in general.

By his use of Moses in the passage it is clear.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

  • thus death spread to all men, because all sinned


For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,


Since there was a law, not the law of Moses, but the law of sin and death, the very point he is making, then sin was indeed imputed.





JLB
 

Quantrill

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God did not impute THEIR OWN sins to them....
But He imputed Adam's sin to them?

Could you just post some verse that states that God imputed Adam's sin to the whole human race?

This is an important concept.

If you're right, then Augustine was right and all of Christian theologians for 400 years after Jesus were wrong...
and babies better get baptized right away in case they should die....which is what Augustine taught.

Are you saying you agree with Augustine?

If you do, I can disagree, but accept your "theory".
If you do not agree with Augustine,,,then you have to come up with some source of your belief.
We can't just make up our own theories.

I already have posted verses.

By the way, no one seems to want to address my question concerning (Heb. 7:4-10), and how that too is imputation. So, did Levi pay tithes to Melchisedec or not? Where is the word 'imputation' in there?

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Those after Adam were under the law of sin and death, as much so as the law of gravity.

The law of sin and death is an eternal law, that effected Lucifer before the earth was created.

Adam was under the law of sin and death, like everyone else who came after him.

Paul using two different law’s to create his legal argument because though this letter is addressed to the Church at Rome, he is focusing on the Jewish Christians among them so as to help them gain understanding; to help them understand the different between the law of faith, the law of Moses, and the law of sin and death.


Paul understood that Jews who had converted, were better equipped
to be trained as teachers, to help teach the Gentiles within the community. He was also faced with the challenge of keeping the Jewish converts from teaching the Gentiles they must keep the law of Moses and become circumcised. Which was another challenge he was facing.


My point: we need to understand that “the law” refers to the law of Moses and “law” refers to law in general.

By his use of Moses in the passage it is clear.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

  • thus death spread to all men, because all sinned


For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,


Since there was a law, not the law of Moses, but the law of sin and death, the very point he is making, then sin was indeed imputed.





JLB

You said a lot in order to contradict the Scripture. (Rom.5:13) "sin is not imputed when there is no law". You're playing a dangerous game with the Scripture. From Adam to Moses there was no law.

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

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That's my point. Man doesn't. If someone does me wrong and I seek to right that wrong against him in whatever way I can, and accomplish it, then I cannot say I forgive you now. Because I didn't forgive him. I made sure he paid for it.

I disagree. When God forgives it is based upon all having been payed for in Christ. You may exercise your forgiveness, but you can't not remember. You can forgive but not forget. That is a trait only God can accomplish.

Quantrill
Did not God forgive us without us having to pay for His forgiveness, no, as Christ paid the price for our sin that we can be reconciled back to God who forgives us and remembers our sins no more after we have repented of them. We are to forgive others their trespasses against us whether there is any reconciliation on their part or not. We do not make them pay a price for us to forgive them. I never heard of such a thing.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
 

JLB

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sin is not imputed when there is no law".

Is not a contradiction, when you realize the point.

The point he is making is, there is a law by which men are/were under before Moses came along, and it’s called the law of sin and death;
the soul that sins must die.

Which is why sin was indeed imputed to all men, because the law of sin and death,which has always been in effect before the law of Moses was added as well as after the law of Moses was abolished, thus making both Jew and Gentile subject to the same law and needing a Savior in the same way.

Here are some questions for us to answer to see where we disagree.

Did death spread to all men? Yes
Did all sin? Yes
Did death reign from Adam to Moses? Yes

Therefore sin was indeed imputed because there was indeed a law;
the law of sin and death.

Why? Because the law of sin and death made every man guilty of sin, and therefore subject to the punishment of death.


When Paul says, sin is not imputed when there is no law… He is using a legal construct to make his point that sin was indeed imputed to all men because all sinned, and therefore there was a law in place.

The law of sin and death.



Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14





JLB
 
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