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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Paul's Eschatological Model of Justification
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
Obadiah
Member
Ok, I closed the thread because I was trying to send messages explaining why posts were being removed so we can avoid this. But you guys were posting faster than I could type and send my message, which means I just have to delete more posts and I hate to do that. Now that there's been a few minutes break, I hope everyone has taken to heart the requests posted earlier in this thread to follow the a&T guidelines, and I hope everyone has actually read the guidelines this time. If not, please do so before posting further. The discussion is fine, it just needs to follow the guidelines. Please do so, as repeated violations will result in official warnings and can also result in infraction points being issued. Thank you.
Obadiah
Member
So sorry everyone! When I made the above post I fully intended to open the thread. Because of work and related issues the last couple of days I was right at about 40 hours with no sleep at all. I made the post and literally fell asleep before I could click the button to open the thread back up. Just woke up a few minutes ago and realized this. Sorry for the inconvenience.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
(Rom 2:1-2)
How does Romans 2 become Hypothetical? So many post deleted, don't make sense, but Romans 2 is not Hypothetical as the Holy Spirit did not give the Word that way.
Things don't become Hypothetical just because there is no faith to believe it.
Mike.
Obadiah
Member
Yes, I hate to do that all the time. If people would understand that the rules and guidelines actually apply to everyone that wouldn't have to happen.
Drew
Member
So you are affirming what Paul writes here:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
....that whatever else might be case that there will be a final judgement at which eternal life is given based on how we have lived (after all, that is what the text plainly asserts)?
smaller
Member
There is not one single person who has ever lived on this planet who will be saved by works.
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
When scriptures speak of repaying, both sides of the ledgers will be invoked. Not just the good side. Every action of sin, in ALL, will be brought to account. The payment for believers in these matters, on the ill side of the ledgers, is that their works of sin will suffer loss, by the judgment of fire, but they will be saved on the foundation of Grace and Mercy through the entire sufficiency of Jesus Christ, to whom we will ALL be conformed, into His Perfect Eternal Body.
If any believer, by their own works, think they have anything to contribute to that that is of themselves, they are sorely mistaken. Perfection is a One Way Street. Perfection is in God's Hands, Alone. And only He can Perform, and Transform, even Determine, what this conformity and Perfection is, and consists of. None of us know what that is. What we have in our own lives are bits and pieces from Above, and those are obscured.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I have every confidence in Christ. And none, in man.
Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
The Will of God is expressed by His Mercy. It is our lack of confidence in ourselves, that invokes His Mercy.
His Divine Mercy is meant to come on the afflicted. And there, His Mercy Falls upon them, in affliction, it will fall.
Isaiah 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Upon the tents of pride, will be promised, destruction. There is no more depth of pride, than a man who worships his own self, in his own works.
Psalm 12:3
The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
It is from the seat of the sinner, that we look, for His Mercy, knowing our deep need of same.
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
When scriptures speak of repaying, both sides of the ledgers will be invoked. Not just the good side. Every action of sin, in ALL, will be brought to account. The payment for believers in these matters, on the ill side of the ledgers, is that their works of sin will suffer loss, by the judgment of fire, but they will be saved on the foundation of Grace and Mercy through the entire sufficiency of Jesus Christ, to whom we will ALL be conformed, into His Perfect Eternal Body.
If any believer, by their own works, think they have anything to contribute to that that is of themselves, they are sorely mistaken. Perfection is a One Way Street. Perfection is in God's Hands, Alone. And only He can Perform, and Transform, even Determine, what this conformity and Perfection is, and consists of. None of us know what that is. What we have in our own lives are bits and pieces from Above, and those are obscured.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I have every confidence in Christ. And none, in man.
Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
The Will of God is expressed by His Mercy. It is our lack of confidence in ourselves, that invokes His Mercy.
His Divine Mercy is meant to come on the afflicted. And there, His Mercy Falls upon them, in affliction, it will fall.
Isaiah 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Upon the tents of pride, will be promised, destruction. There is no more depth of pride, than a man who worships his own self, in his own works.
Psalm 12:3
The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
It is from the seat of the sinner, that we look, for His Mercy, knowing our deep need of same.
Drew
Member
If that is so, you are, I believe forced into saying that what Paul writes here will be true of Zero persons:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.[Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
Why do suppose that Paul would say make this statement if it is true of zero persons? Do people typically say things that they know to be true of zero people? For example, would it make sense for Barak Obama to say "I will give my 18 year-old son a car for Christmas"? He has no 18 year-old son. So why would he conceivably say anything like this.
And what about this:
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 2So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:11-13, NASB]
Again, Paul clearly describes the awarding of immortality (the "life" in verse 11 is the life that transforms a mortal body into an immortal one) based on how we actually live - the continual action of "putting to death the deeds of the body".
Why would Paul write these words if, as I think you are forced to claim, zero persons will get eternal life through this means?
Drew
Member
I will claim that Paul never condemns the notion of justification by good works, he condemns the notion of justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses, and in particular those that mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. Here is one of the most famous texts used to argue that Paul does not believe that good deeds produce justification:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9, NASB]
Is Paul really denying we need to do good works to be saved. Not without contradicting this:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]
Fortunately, there is no contradiction. What Paul goes on to say later on in Ephesian 2 shows that he is really denying in 2:9 is that one is justified by being Jewish - by following the dictates of the Law of Moses which only Jew can do. Note the details of the explain following the keyword "therefore":
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who werenear; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household..
[Ephesians 2:11-19, NASB]
Paul's argument is clear: God does not limit membership in his family to Jews - the only ones who can do the "works" of the Law of Moses.
Paul is certainly not denying what he says here:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]
smaller
Member
None of us will be standing before God in Christ, with our filthy rag righteousness in hand, thinking we'll be able to buy a ticket into heaven. That is NOT going to happen. The entrance price was paid by The Blood of God's Perfect Lamb.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
We live our lives in this light, but we did NOT pay the price of Perfection that only He could pay.
There are TWO judgments that will arise from the dust of humanity. One judgment unto eternal life, and one unto eternal death.
IF you think that there is not some dust works from any of us that are NOT going to be found in the burnt pile of rubbish, I'd suggest otherwise. There is no scale of our works Drew, that will buy our way in. That doesn't exist.
We love, because we are the recipients of Love, from Him. This is God in Christ, reflected in us, and through us. None of us will be able to pat our own back before Him. It was upon His Back that blood was Shed, and blood paid the ultimate price of Love, which is sacrifice and longsuffering.
1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Drew
Member
If this is so, can you please explain precisely what you think Paul is telling us when he wrote the following words:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]
Surely Paul meant us to understand something when he penned these words? I believe he means what he says - that there will be a judgment where eternal life is conferred based on "what we have done".
Your position appears to not allow this. So what, exactly, is Paul telling us here?
Drew
Member
That is not what Paul says here, where he describes a single judgment at which some get eternal life and others get wrath:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
And now back to the Romans 8 text:
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 2So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:11-13, NASB]
What, in your own words, is Paul telling us here. You have posted other texts and commented on them. That's great, but I am interested in what you think Paul is trying to tell us in these particular words.
smaller
Member
I've observed this exact matter many times, not only for myself, but it is also the sight and the Light I see for other believers, just as Paul showed us himself:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Only ONE of the parties above is in The Body of Christ. And it's not the red one.
Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
We all slumber in this bed.
Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Drew
Member
You are not addressing my question. I am interested in you telling us all what you think Paul is trying to tells us in the two texts I provided. Paul wrote those words for a reason - what do you think he is trying to communicate to us in these particular texts:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 2So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:11-13, NASB]
smaller
Member
What I'm observing Drew, is that no matter what works we do, the resistance of the tempter abides in the flesh of every believer. Therefore we not only will not, but can not ever find justification to the entirety of what we presently are and consist of, in the flesh.
There is going to be ZERO damnation to any believer. There is now, NO CONDEMNATION to any believer. We are saved to the uttermost By Christ, Himself. We live our life in His Love, and will abide therein, forever. And ever. Nothing will separate us from Him. Nothing will add to Him, or take away, from Him.
It is by His Power, that we are transformed. We are always in need, presently, because we are still attached to a flesh body in which dwells temptations and lusts. Everything we do is just as it was with Paul, with "evil present" with us. Romans 7:21. It is for this exact reason that we all in fact have a VILE BODY that will be transformed, when we are OUT of it.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Do you or I really think we have the kind of POWER, to subdue "all things?" I think NOT my friend. This is His, and His Power, Alone.
And, yes, HE IS ABLE.
He is also able to DAMN to the uttermost, all His enemies.
I know what I want to be separted from. The sin that indwells my own flesh, which is in fact of the DEVIL.
When our body is transformed, we WILL pass out and away from "dishonor" "disobedience" "corruption" "weakness" "our vile body" "temptations" "lusts" and everything that comes with being planted in the FLESH. 1 Cor. 15:43-49, Gal. 4:14, Romans 6:12 and many many more showing our current state of affairs.
Presently, we have "a little light." An earnest deposit from Him, to lead us in His Ways. This is His Resurrection Seed that has been planted in us, that has saved us, past tense, that has given us, past tense, eternal life. And we shall NOT come into condemnation, period.
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
But this does not address the entirety of our present state, the present state of all of humanity. Nor does it address the wickedness that the whole world is currently wrapped up in and deposited into, in the present wicked age.
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