Paul's Eschatological Model of Justification

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OK let's get into this. Here is the text at issue again:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

[Romans 2;6-7, NIV]

You say "the believer will be saved on the Sole Merits of faith in Christ's sufficiency to save them".
Paul writes:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"

Now: please tell us how you reconcile these two assertions about salvation.

Seriously, there is no point in going around in circles on this.

There is no adverse judgment to believers. Even judging them damned based on works is forbidden in the statement of Romans 2:

Romans 2
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Regarding the judgment of sin, we all stand, on equal ground, as sinners. There is not one sinner, better than any other sinner.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

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OK let's get into this. Here is the text at issue again:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

[Romans 2;6-7, NIV]

You say "the believer will be saved on the Sole Merits of faith in Christ's sufficiency to save them".
Paul writes:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"

Now: please tell us how you reconcile these two assertions about salvation.

There has always and only been one scriptural matter between us Drew.

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

I will not try to justify any sin or the tempter, the devil, who is involved with every sin, yes even every wicked evil thought.

You on the other hand, see only a person, singular, and you have no answers about the devil and his messengers in their roles of sin in man or in believers, and you will, like predictable clockwork, avoid discussing every time.

 

[Drew]

There has always and only been one scriptural matter between us Drew.

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

I will not try to justify any sin or the tempter, the devil, who is involved with every sin, yes even every wicked evil thought.

You on the other hand, see only a person, singular, and you have no answers about the devil and his messengers in their roles of sin in man or in believers, and you will, like predictable clockwork, avoid discussing every time.

First of all, you have never answered my clear questions about Romans 2:6-7: I have repeatedly asked you to reconcile these words:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

.....with your clearly stated position that "persistence in doing good" (good works) does not determine salvation.

The readers will know that you are not addressing so this, so I really think it is in your best interest to address this text. Once more, please explain how you reconcile the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 - that eternal life is granted according to good works - with your view.

Yes, your other thoughts and insights are important - they address much of what Paul writes. But they do not explain why he writes the very particular thing he writes in Romans 2:6-7. So please explain why you think Paul chose to utter these words to his scribe:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

I agree that I have not addressed all that you have written. A lot of it I agree with, that's why (although not all of it - I believe that Romans 7 is about an unbeliever). I will get to that stuff which I have not addressed if, repeat if, you address my clear and oft-repeated question about Romans 2:6-7.

 

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First of all, you have never answered my clear questions

Uh, no, you are in fact playing a scriptural dodge ball game, about the role of the devil and his messengers in matters of sin and judgment, insisting, resisting, beyond any credibility, to bring these parties into matters of judgments.

The readers will know that you are not addressing so this, so I really think it is in your best interest to address this text. Once more, please explain how you reconcile the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 - that eternal life is granted according to good works - with your view.

No work in believers transpires apart from Christ within them and with them. Do you want to judge believers, or Christ in them?

I agree that I have not addressed all that you have written.

Massive massive understatement. In your attempt to judge believers based on works, don't forget to lend your judgment sights to Christ in us, working, also. Here, you are equally vague and void, just as you are vague and void of judgments upon our adversaries, unseen.

Why don't you just admit that your scriptural views are almost entirely mancentric? I wouldn't propose such sights are even remotely in the realm of legitimate theology whatsoever.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Drew]

Uh, no, you are in fact playing a scriptural dodge ball game, about the role of the devil and his messengers in matters of sin and judgment, insisting, resisting, beyond any credibility, to bring these parties into matters of judgments.

I have never denied that the devil and his messengers will be judged, but that is not relevant to what is said about people who get eternal life by doing good in Romans 2:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

No work in believers transpires apart from Christ within them and with them.

I fully agree. And this is precisely why only a believer can pass the Romans 2 works judgment. But Paul still writes what he writes (refer to text of Romans 2:6-7, above.

 

[Drew]

In your attempt to judge believers based on works,...

I am not judging people on their good deeds, Paul says that God will:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

Why don't you just admit that your scriptural views are almost entirely mancentric? I wouldn't propose such sights are even remotely in the realm of legitimate theology whatsoever.

I have been clear in many threads about this. If I have not been clear in this thread, let me rectify that: It is only because of the action of the indwelling Spirit that people can perform the good works that will result in their being awarded eternal life.

 

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I have never denied that the devil and his messengers will be judged, but that is not relevant to what is said about people who get eternal life by doing good in Romans 2:

Why be incognizant of the overlap with believers and sin, that being of the devil, the tempter? That is your vacuum of void sight. 1 John 3:8

And why be equally void of God in Christ IN believers? Another void!

There is no scriptural vacuum, where any believer stands, alone.

 

[Drew]

Why be incognizant of the overlap with believers and sin, that being of the devil, the tempter? That is your vacuum of void sight. 1 John 3:8

And why be equally void of God in Christ IN believers? Another void!

There is no scriptural vacuum, where any believer stands, alone.

I have never denied the role of the tempter. I entirely agree that there evil powers at work in the world. And, obviously, I have never denied - in fact I have clearly affirmed - the power of the indwelling Spirit in believers.

Again, do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

 

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I have never denied the role of the tempter. I entirely agree that there evil powers at work in the world. And, obviously, I have never denied - in fact I have clearly affirmed - the power of the indwelling Spirit in believers.

Again, do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

This is the scriptural sight shed by God upon the believer:

Romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[Drew]

This is the scriptural sight shed by God upon the believer:

Romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Why are you not directly answering my question? Do you believe it is not apparent to other readers that you are avoiding dealing with it? As the TOS states, you are, of course, under no obligation to answer. But, to quote from the TOS:

Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position

I am, as you know, a patient fellow. So I will keep asking: Do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

And with respect to the material that you posted: of course it is God who justifies! It says so right in the very text you seem to resist addressing - it is God who renders the judgment unto eternal life.

And, like it or not, Paul says it's "according to what they have done".

 

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Why are you not directly answering my question? Do you believe it is not apparent to other readers that you are avoiding dealing with it? As the TOS states, you are, of course, under no obligation to answer. But, to quote from the TOS:

Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position

I am, as you know, a patient fellow. So I will keep asking: Do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

And with respect to the material that you posted: of course it is God who justifies! It says so right in the very text you seem to resist addressing - it is God who renders the judgment unto eternal life.

Is it God who justifies, not condemns, the elect. Therefore there is no charge to be made to believers, His elect, exactly per Romans 8:33. God can not condemn those whom He justifies.

That does not mean judgments will not fall upon the tempter or his messengers who operate in the flesh. This addresses the adverse side of judgments.

And, like it or not, Paul says it's "according to what they have done".

They, in your insistence, is only the person. That is not and can not be the case. The tempter operates in the flesh and is linked, intimately, to every sin, yes even to the sin of believers, 1 John 3:8.

And, likewise we are not dealing with ToS matters, but rather your insistence to see judgment apart from both God in Christ and the judgment of the works of devils in the flesh.

The filter you insist for your repeated citing is flawed. And has been addressed, at length. And has zero to do with not answering your question, but not answering your question according to your insistence on a false imposition.

 

[Drew]

Is it God who justifies, not condemns, the elect. Therefore there is no charge to be made to believers, His elect, exactly per Romans 8:33. God can not condemn those whom He justifies.

All true, of course, but Paul still means what he writes:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You appear to believe that my position - that Paul means what he says here and that eternal life is given according to "what we have done" - entails the possibility that a believer will not pass the Romans 2 judgement.

Let me be clear: I believe this is not possible - the Spirit will most certainly transform the believer so that he passes the "good works" judgment of Romans 2.

You have, of course, not answered my clear, simple question. I ask it again:

Do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You claim that I am asking you to answer this question based on a "false imposition" on my part. Well, forgot about me and what I may or may not believe about anything.

Just answer the question - it is straightforward: Paul make a statement - do you believe it or not?

You claim in the following that I believe the "they" in "according to what they have done" only includes human beings. I have never said such a thing, and I will agree that all beings will be subject to this judgment. So, again, do you accept Paul's statement or not?

 

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All true, of course, but Paul still means what he writes:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You appear to believe that my position - that Paul means what he says here and that eternal life is given according to "what we have done" - entails the possibility that a believer will not pass the Romans 2 judgement.

I've never stated such, and repeatedly have stated that the workings of the tempter(s) in the flesh/mind will fall under adverse judgments, and not to or onto the believer.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Let me be clear: I believe this is not possible - the Spirit will most certainly transform the believer so that he passes the "good works" judgment of Romans 2.

It can be no other way. Judgment itself has only one purpose:

John 5:
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son,

In this we will find the honor that is due unto The Son, Jesus Christ, in His Divine Ways.

You have, of course, not answered my clear, simple question. I ask it again:

Do you agree, or disagree with this rather simple, unambiguous claim by Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You claim that I am asking you to answer this question based on a "false imposition" on my part. Well, forgot about me and what I may or may not believe about anything.

Just answer the question - it is straightforward: Paul make a statement - do you believe it or not?

Yes, and TWO judgments will unfold. The adverse judgments will fall upon the tempter(s) who operate in the flesh. This is the part that you continue to resist, and insist to only see the believer, when that is provably not the case of the believers current state of existence.

I pointed specifically also to Paul, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

and defined how the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul will stand to the adverse judgment of God for what IT did in the body of Paul.

You claim in the following that I believe the "they" in "according to what they have done" only includes human beings. I have never said such a thing, and I will agree that all beings will be subject to this judgment. So, again, do you accept Paul's statement or not?

Yes, Paul unto salvation and the messenger of Satan in his flesh will also stand and be judged to eternal damnation judgment for the things, evil, that transpired in the body of Paul. Don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. Your insistence is to lay adverse judgment on Paul and that simply is not going to happen, nor is it even possible.

 

[Drew]

I've never stated such, and repeatedly have stated that the workings of the tempter(s) in the flesh/mind will fall under adverse judgments, and not to or onto the believer.

You wrote this in response to this statement of mine:

You appear to believe that my position - that Paul means what he says here and that eternal life is given according to "what we have done" - entails the possibility that a believer will not pass the Romans 2 judgement.

You are stating that, when it comes to "bad actions", God will hold the "tempter", and not the believer responsible. I happen to disagree with that, but that's not really the point. Let me try to be painfully clear:

1. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul writes, as clearly as any human being can express it, that eternal life will be granted according to what we have done. I am sorry, but this is what the text clearly says, and I suggest you and all readers know this:6God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

2. That should settle the matter - Paul clearly and, without qualification, asserts that the basis - the "according to" - for getting eternal life is what person has done. In fact, later in the same passage, Paul expresses the very same position: 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [Romans 2:13, NASB]

3. This, understandably, is a big problem for the majority of people here who believe that, despite the clear wording of this stuff in Romans 2, that "good works" play no role in final salvation.

Please do not muddy this issue with a red herring about how God will hold the "inner tempter", and not the person, responsible for bad things people do. Even if it that were true, how does that nullify Paul's statement that eternal life is awarded to people according to what they have done.?

 

[Drew]

Yes, and TWO judgments will unfold. The adverse judgments will fall upon the tempter(s) who operate in the flesh. This is the part that you continue to resist, and insist to only see the believer, when that is provably not the case of the believers current state of existence.

This is a strawman. You have ascribed to me a position that I had never stated (until the last post) - you cast me as denying that God will judge "the tempter who operates in the flesh". Well, for one, I do not, and have never denied such a thing. Now, I happen to believe that God will judge actual people who do evil. But even if we disagree on this, it entirely besides the point in relation to the matter of being given eternal life.

Neither you nor I are claiming that the tempter is given eternal life.

But, and this is the point where you continue to evade: Paul say that eternal life is awarded according to......what?

6God “will repay each personaccording to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Forget about whether God holds the tempter responsible for the bad things that people do.

Is Paul right or wrong in Romans 2:6-7.

You answered this question with a "YES", above, and then went on to say that the "adverse" judgment will fall on the tempter. Well, maybe. But you clearly said there would be TWO judgements. Well, then what about the "good" judgment - the awarding of eternal life. What does Paul identify as the basis for the granting of eternal life?

 

[Drew]

Yes, Paul unto salvation and the messenger of Satan in his flesh will also stand and be judged to eternal damnation judgment for the things, evil, that transpired in the body of Paul. Don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. Your insistence is to lay adverse judgment on Paul and that simply is not going to happen, nor is it even possible.

Here, you at least answer my question as to whether you believe what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7. So you believe Romans 2:6-7 puts Paul in the camp of those who get eternal life. Well, I believe this too. But, and this is the heart of the issue, the criterion set forth in Romans 2:6-7 for getting that salvation you concede Paul gets is, yes, "persistence in doing good seeking glory, honor and immortality"

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Again, you pose a strawman. I have never posted anything that suggests that I believe that Paul will get "adverse judgement".

 

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You wrote this in response to this statement of mine:

You are stating that, when it comes to "bad actions", God will hold the "tempter", and not the believer responsible. I happen to disagree with that, but that's not really the point. Let me try to be painfully clear:

Obviously your intent is to potentially condemn the believer. A practice that I see as forbidden. There is obviously another party to view that is not the believer, as demonstrated, with Paul.

1. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul writes, as clearly as any human being can express it, that eternal life will be granted according to what we have done. I am sorry, but this is what the text clearly says, and I suggest you and all readers know this:6God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

There is no judgment of any believer apart from Christ within them, He being entirely capable to bring all of His into salvation. God in Christ does not condemn, those whom He Saves and justifies. It is not possible.

Therefore adverse judgments turn to the only other logical party in view, the messenger of Satan in the flesh, the tempter. Now why you refuse to look that direction is a whole nuther subject, apparently. 2 Cor. 12:7, Romans 9:18-24, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

2. That should settle the matter - Paul clearly and, without qualification, asserts that the basis - the "according to" - for getting eternal life is what person has done. In fact, later in the same passage, Paul expresses the very same position: 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [Romans 2:13, NASB]

Your qualification of "person" is what is under the scriptural gun.

3. This, understandably, is a big problem for the majority of people here who believe that, despite the clear wording of this stuff in Romans 2, that "good works" play no role in final salvation.

This is, as to rewards. But as to eternal damnation, never.

We did this drill before as well:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please do not muddy this issue with a red herring about how God will hold the "inner tempter", and not the person, responsible for bad things people do. Even if it that were true, how does that nullify Paul's statement that eternal life is awarded to people according to what they have done.?

Your press is to bring believers into condemnation. That can't happen. Your press is also to entirely and I mean entirely ignore that the tempter operates in the flesh. So on this end, your sight is again, void of being an accurate look at "the person, the believer." It's a hallow position that doesn't hold scriptural water.

What you call a red herring is only your failure to see the obvious bigger red fact staring at you from the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[Drew]

Obviously your intent is to potentially condemn the believer. A practice that I see as forbidden. There is obviously another party to view that is not the believer, as demonstrated, with Paul.

All I am doing is pointing out what Paul actually writes and asking you whether you believe it. And you dance around this question, post after post, not least with this tangent about holding the tempter responsible for our bad deeds. Paul says what he says! The "according to", the ground, the basis, for the awarding of eternal life is, yes, what we have done. What makes things so difficult for you is that there is no wiggle room in the following statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Do you believe this statement, and in particular the clear causal connection that Paul identifies between the doing of good works and the awarding of eternal life.

I am quite sure you will not answer this question in a manner that is not otherwise muddied with equivocation and the taking of tangents. And I would also not be surprised if you are rescued from the corner you are in by moderators who tire of seeing an endless back and forth.

Now to your tangent about my intent: If a believer turns his back on the transforming work of the Spirit, yes, that person may wind up lost. But if we do not grieve the Spirit, Paul assures us that the Spirit - given on the basis of faith alone - will indeed transform us into the kind of person who does "saving good works".

 

[Drew]

There is no judgment of any believer apart from Christ within them, He being entirely capable to bring all of His into salvation.

Agreed.

But this is entirely consistent with the statement that Paul makes here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Explanation: "Christ in us" transforms us into "good works producing human beings" who then pass the judgment unto eternal life described above.

Is that judgment based on good works. It clearly is - that is what the words plainly say, despite all other claims about tempters, thorns in the flesh. etc.

 

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I think we've again more than sufficiently delineated our respective sights, and NO, I will not be falling headlong into potential condemnation of believers and into the complete ignorance of the judgment of the tempter in the flesh. That just ain't gonna happen. There is a direction to look to that does not slur any believer.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

No one will reverse this statement of fact by Jesus. It is written, and can not be changed.

You want to discuss adverse judgments, then let's get ALL the parties on the table of adverse judgments, not ignore them.