Paul's Eschatological Model of Justification

[Drew]

This is, as to rewards. But as to eternal damnation, never.

This was written in response to this:

3. This, understandably, is a big problem for the majority of people here who believe that, despite the clear wording of this stuff in Romans 2, that "good works" play no role in final salvation.

Are you saying that this text describes a judgement at which rewards (and not eternal life) are given to believer:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Well, it certainly appears that you feel entitled to strike out the phrase "eternal life" and subsitute "rewards" as in:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

What do you have to say?

 

[smaller]

What do you have to say?

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Drew]

Your press is to bring believers into condemnation. That can't happen. Your press is also to entirely and I mean entirely ignore that the tempter operates in the flesh. So on this end, your sight is again, void of being an accurate look at "the person, the believer." It's a hallow position that doesn't hold scriptural water.

I have never denied that Satan tempts people.

I have never denied that Satan will be judged.

How is any of this relevant to the clear statement from Romans 2:6-7 that, when eternal life is given, it is given according to what we have done?

What you call a red herring is only your failure to see the obvious bigger red fact staring at you from the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Strawman - I have never come remotely close to denying that evil powers are at work in us.

How, and please be specific, does that give us justification for denying that eternal life is awarded according to what we have done?

 

[smaller]

I have never denied that Satan tempts people. I have never denied that Satan will be judged.
- evil powers are at work in us.

How, and please be specific, does that give us justification for denying that eternal life is awarded according to what we have done?

When you want to talk about adverse judgments, why then do you "remove" the obvious problem?


Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

This wrestling match transpires in the flesh, but it is not an origination of the flesh, but of the adverse powers of the devil that DO operate therein.

 

[Drew]

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This is the Law of Moses.

I have never, of course, claimed that one can be justified by doing the Law of Moses. I have simply taken Paul at his word and accepted that we are given eternal life based on "persistence in doing good". This is not the same thing as following the Law of Moses, even though the Law of Moses does prescribe some "good works".

And we can get into that.

But, let's say you are right, let's say that Romans 3:20 establishes that we cannot be given eternal life based on works.

In that case, what was Paul thinking when he wrote these particular words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

Please answer this question - tell us what was in Paul's mind when he wrote these very words.

You can talk about theology of tempters.

You can make inferences about my intent.

But I trust you realize that these will be seen as strategies to avoid a very clear, well-formulated, and oft-repeated question.

 

[Drew]

smaller, I would really like you to explain how the entire matter of the role of a tempter in any way bears on the clear causal connection Paul draws between the receipt of eternal life and how we live:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

 

[smaller]

smaller, I would really like you to explain how the entire matter of the role of a tempter in any way bears on the clear causal connection Paul draws between the receipt of eternal life and how we live:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

I would point to your own words:

"I have never denied that Satan tempts people. I have never denied that Satan will be judged.
- evil powers are at work in us."

And say then, why are you ignoring the obvious?

The flesh body is vile because of the battles that transpire therein, in the flesh, with our adversary, the tempter, which places same therein to make such battles via temptations and lusts in the flesh.

So, no, there will be no judgments of works done in the body apart from bringing the tempter into judgments.

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

 

[Drew]

So, no, there will be no judgments of works done in the body apart from bringing the tempter into judgments.

OK, so please explain how this has any bearing on Paul's claim in Romans 2:7 that eternal life will be given to those who "persist in doing good":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

 

[Drew]

Here are the strategies that I have encountered relative to dealing with this text:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

1. Drew and others believe this statement means exactly what it says.

2. Others assert that Paul is speaking hypothetically - that if it were possible to be saved by good works, we would be. These people argue that Paul must be speaking hypothetically - even though, of course he never indicates that he is speaking hypothetically (this should raise a red flag, of course) - because, so these people claim - Paul goes on in Romans 3 to deny "salvation by works". Well, Paul does do that, but, and this is a huge but, it is demonstrably the case that Paul uses the word "works" to refer to the specific prescriptions of the Law of Moses that mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. If that's true, we do not need to make the frankly astounding move of suggesting that Paul is speaking hypothetically in Romans 2:6-7. Who speaks about is only hypothetically the case? I am married to Jennifer Lopez. There. I did it myself - I said something that is hypothetically the case - in some other universe I could indeed be married to Ms. Lopez. But what rational person speaks hypothetically, unless, of course, they say that they are.

3. Some choose to take the phase "eternal life" and substitute "rewards" for it. Mkay......

4. Others say that no believers will be at this judgment and every one who is otherwise at this judgement gets wrath - none get eternal life. Well, first of all, the text never says only unbelievers are at this judgment and, on the contrary, strongly implies it is a universal judgement. Besides, what rational person would write of people getting eternal life, knowing all along there will be zero such people. That's the same kind of thing as per item (2), above.

5. And others simply refuse to answer the question when prompted to state their position on Romans 2:6-7.

Which position do you ascribe to? I suspect I have missed some options.

 

[Drew]

From the internet - someone is addressing the views of theologian NT Wright whose views I believe I share on this obviously touchy issue:

As I mentioned, Wright’s exegesis of the Apostle’s teaching on final justification by works has been fiercely criticized by those who believe that he is undermining the Reformation doctrine of justification by faith. If we are judged by works, are we not thrown back upon ourselves for our salvation? Wright responds:

Ah, you say, but that is hypothetical, and Paul is about to declare it null and void and to show a different way altogether. I respond that it is you, O exegete whoever you are saying such things, that is making the word of God null and void through your tradition. Did you never read in 2 Corinthians 5 that we must all appear before the Messiah’s judgment seat, so that we may each receive what was done in the body, good or bad? Who wrote that verse? Ed Sanders? Tom Wright? No: Paul. Or, back in Romans, what about 14:10–12, where each of us will give an account to God, at his judgment seat? How do you fit that into your system? Unless you can, you have stopped reading Paul and have instead imposed your own scheme onto him. For Paul, future justification will be in accordance with the life that has been lived. He does not say we will earn it. He does not say we will merit it. He says we will have been “seeking for it” by our patience in well-doing. And the whole of Romans 5-8—which generations of anxious exegetes have struggled to fit with a Protestant reading of chapter 3—is there to explain how it works: how it works in theory, how it works in practice. The theory involves baptism and the Spirit, neither of which feature that much in normal Protestant schemes of justification. The practice involves reckoning that if one is in the Messiah, one is dead to sin and alive to God; and then, on that basis, and in the power of the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body. If that is not happening, then according to the logic of Rom 8:5–11 it must be questioned whether one really belongs to the Messiah at all.

The future justification, then, will be in accordance with the life lived, but the glorious conclusion of chapter 8 makes it clear that this is no ground for anxiety. “If God be for us, who can be against us?” This is looking to the future, trusting that the Jesus who died, who rose, and who now intercedes for us will remain at the heart of the unbreakable bond of love with which God has loved us. And when we read this wonderful passage, as we must, in the light of the whole of the preceding argument, especially Rom 5:1–11 and 8:12–27, it is clear that it is precisely the Spirit who enables us to be the people who can celebrate in that way, the people of patience, the people of hope, the people in whose hearts love for God has been poured out. (“Justification: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow,” JETS 54.1 [March 2011]: 61-62)

In the present, we are justified on the basis of faith. In the future, we will be justified on the basis of our concrete lives. What is the connection between the two judgments? The Holy Spirit!

 

[smaller]

There is no question N.T. Wright and you, Drew, teach salvation by works.

There will be no works that will save this, or justify this:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This is the direction of Jesus to that.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

Romans 4:
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[Drew]

There is no question N.T. Wright and you, Drew, teach salvation by works.

Well, if by "salvation by works" you means that salvation is based on "persistence in doing good", I am more than happy to count myself in what others who believe, not least the person who expressed this opinion:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

So, yes, I am guilty as charged - I believe what Paul writes.

Why don't you?

 

[smaller]

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]. So, yes, I am guilty as charged - I believe what Paul writes.

Why don't you?

I believe it is entirely true as well. But no such actions will save the tempter in the flesh, period.

We can read on from your citing and find the other side of the coin, here:

Romans 2:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Did Paul do evil? Yes!

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This is the exact contention Paul brings us into to define salvation by Grace, the unmerited unmeritable favor of God in Christ, in dispensing Divine Mercy to the believer.

And the other side of the coin will fall under adverse judgments, permanent damnation.

The actions of the flesh on the evil side of the ledgers, even in this present life, reap retribution, both temporal and permanent.

 

[Drew]

I believe it is entirely true as well.

I doubt it. But it's easy to check. Do you agree with Paul that some human beings - not the tempter and the demons - will be awarded eternal life based on "persistence in doing good"? Simple yes or no will suffice. You say, above, that you believe what Paul writes, so why not simply agree that when eternal life is awarded, it is awarded according to what we have done? After all, that is clearly what Paul says here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

I prophesy you will dance like mad around the question and simply not answer it clearly. But, please, prove me wrong.

 

[Drew]

We can read on from your citing and find the other side of the coin, here:

Romans 2:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Did Paul do evil? Yes!

I put it to you that we can reasonably conclude that Paul does not mean that those who sin occasionally in more general process of being transformed into the likeness of Jesus are lost. In other words, I think it's fairly clear that Paul is referring here to people who lives are generally characterized by doing evil. You may dispute this, and I will answer you. But we are not playing by the same set of rules. Of this there can be no doubt: you doggedly dance around my oft-repeated question about Paul's clearly stated position that there are indeed people who get eternal life on a life generally characterized by doing good. You cannot accommodate this statement into your worldview and, like some others, you simply will not deal with the corner this forces you into. And that is, you refuse to publically state what is clear by your silence and by a host of other things you post: You disagree with this statement from Paul:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

I suggest you try to obscure the matter by focusing on this issue of the "inner tempter" as if that somehow gets you off the hook from dealing with a very simple, very clear assertion by Paul - that the actual quality of our lives is materially connected to whether we get eternal life. Let me repeat for the bazillionth time: I do not dispute that there are demonic "powers" that will get wrath.

But Paul still writes what he writes in Romans 2:6-7 and you have clearly refused to come clean that you certainly do not believe the following words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV].

If you did, you would have long ago affirmed their truth. But you never really do so. When pressed you say something like "I believe these words" but you then produce a string of statements / arguments that really amount to "taking back" that affirmation. For example, when I simply affirm Paul's statement as written, you tell me I am promoting a "gospel of works". I have happily conceded that I am doing so, in the very qualified sense that Paul does - by arguing that on the basis of grace and faith alone we are given a transforming Spirit that will, unless we grieve it, will most assuredly shape us into people who "persist in doing good".