perfected forever

[francisdesales]

And to the question of Maturity: brilliant ! Yes, meeting Conditions does NOT mean earning by works

good point. remember this and use it often in these conversations...

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

Maybe we can view sanctification to contain more than previously expected. Whenever someone repents in public (what is very rare these days) I would call that a breakthrough in sanctification, or also since today born-again, again, a radical change and the expression of it. We can not only totally fall away (anti-osas), we also can partially go astray or fall asleep at the wheel and take a wrong turn along the way. Would we be saved if we would physically die in such a state?. Without knowing the exact case it's still a "not likely" if a major delusion is involved at that time. When the "door is shut" it's too late to repent of that.

Basically final sanctification is perfection. Born-again, again is an expression that is trying to decribe a state when "the Holy Spirit is active again without ANY hindrance caused by a dearly held delusion" That hindered us just previously to accept and live the full gospel. When something like a stronghold kept dearly to our heart for years is cast out ! - Then Faith has no enemy or double mindedness anymore that day. Today when you hear His voice.....

First time I paid attention to differentiation was when I was on a 100% pre-trib message board. What i thought to be at least partially based on truth at that time. Until one fine day a brother brought the biblically correct teaching to that forum. Just before he got banned (without finding any fault on his side - yet the owner had another jesus telling him in person that pre-trib was the "correct view" so he couldn't stand it to hear a conflicting message. He of course said it's for the protection of the members) So while the biblically true one was still with us he made a comment that included a confession that he was a pre-tribber for something close to 10 or 15 years, and then was born again when he also accepted the truth about the rapture question at the same time.

myself I would agree and call my own past while being pre-trib a major stronghold that blinded me, not totally, but partially to the extend that found me expressing vain ideas based on that exact partial blindness. When any doctrinal base is wrong - everthing you build on that sounds like revelation to yourself and other like minded - while brothers without that handicap know and see that your story is vain and unlogical nonsense. But we ourselves don't know that, and respond with "that's your opinion". Such is the nature of deception. It's like calling pre-trib "our blessed hope" without finding any fault with that. Not aware that this is totally missing it. What is false doctrine, what are strongholds? Nothing but very smart lies regarded as The truth, so there is a conflict whether realized or not, it's still there. And the reason given: it's a legal ground of attack for the enemy. Yes he's allowed to attack us on his own playground, which covers lies and the belief in them.

James 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Being made perfect before God has nothing to do with the actions of men, It was accomplished by Jesus christ giving Himself for His People..

Heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Contrary to the False teaching of the Anti Christ ministers, who teach that Christ death did nothing but provide opportunity for everyone to get saved, depending on them..the scripture teach that Jesus Christ actually accomplished and effects salvation for His chosen people..

here are some effects :

#1 Sanctification heb 10:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The writer of hebrews in demonstrating the superiority of the offering [ death] of Christ over and above that of the levitical offerings wrote that the offering of Christ sanctified those whom He was offered for..

The word sanctified in this verse is in the perfect tense, meaning done once and for all in the past and not to be repeated..

Hence all the chosen of God, even those not yet born, were sanctified once and for all by the offering of Christ on their behalf..

The same sanctified ones are here in acts acts 20:32

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Again sanctified is in the perfect tense..

All them who are sanctified by the death or offering of Christ, have an inheritance..

This is confirmed not only by His death for them, but also His resurrection for them, for He rose as the shepherd of the sheep heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And so through and by His death and resurrection the sheep are begotten again unto a lively hope to an inheritance reserved unto them 1 pet 1:


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is one of the effects of the death or sacrifice of Christ for His people / sheep..

 

[francisdesales]

Being made perfect before God has nothing to do with the actions of men, It was accomplished by Jesus christ giving Himself for His People..

Heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Read it again.

Those that are sanctified are perfected by the "One offering". Doesn't say that the One offering perfected people before they were born.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Being made perfect before God has nothing to do with the actions of men, It was accomplished by Jesus christ giving Himself for His People..

Heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Read it again.

Those that are sanctified are perfected by the "One offering". Doesn't say that the One offering perfected people before they were born.

Christ died for many before they were born..and His death [ offering] perfected them before God before they were born..I did not have to be born in order for christ death to accomplish its effect before God..

And for those of the elect who were born before christ death for them, no problem, because God considered Him slain for them from the foundation..rev 13:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [offered] from the foundation of the world.

BTW Gods elect are sanctified before they leave the womb, and be born sinners, this is illustrated by jeremiah:

jer 1:

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[francisdesales]

Christ died for many before they were born..and His death [ offering] perfected them before God before they were born..I did not have to be born in order for christ death to accomplish its effect before God..

Again, you are mis-interpretating Heb 10:14. Yes, Christ died for all, before we were even born. But that sanctification is not applied to us all at once. Heb 10:14 is talking about the ONE sacrifice of Christ that no longer necessitates for a need of constantly re-sacrificing, NOT that Christ's ONE sacrifice makes all believers instantly perfect, even in the future before they were born.

If so, you have lots of explaining to do on how God could inspire other Scripture writers to disagree with you. Profusely and over and over again...

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:22-24

Paul writing to Christians (who are not perfect) to renew oneself, put off corruption, put on the new man... WHY would Paul say this if we are already perfect???

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word Eph 5:25-26

According to this, the entire Church is not yet sanctified. That He might sanctify - hasn't been done yet...

Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thes 5:22-23

Why bother to pray that God sanctify us WHOLLY, if we have ALREADY been perfected before we were even born???

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2: 5-6

Here, we have John showing that you are again wrong, this time, that we have no say in our sanctification whatsoever, we are perfect before we were born... WHOSOEVER KEEPS HIS WORD - shall be made holy and be perfected.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Another example of John stating that our actions affect our perfection. IF WE LOVE ANOTHER...HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US. Not that we are ALREADY perfected, but we will BE perfected...

And my final citation of this post (although there are numerous others that show we are yet perfected and are still being sanctified by the Sanctifier, the Spirit of God)...

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-15

Paul HIMSELF is not perfected, has not yet attained to perfection.

But you have... ?

God is not a God of confusion. Clearly, we have yet to attain perfection - the perfection that derives from Christ's ONE sacrifice applied to us when God desires to enable us to grow as a result of our responses to His Love.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Again, you are mis-interpretating Heb 10:14.

No you are, its pretty simple Heb 10:

14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Them that are sanctfied by His offering heb 10:

10By the which will we [the seed of abraham] are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[francisdesales]

Again, you are mis-interpretating Heb 10:14.

No you are, its pretty simple Heb 10:

14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Them that are sanctfied by His offering heb 10:

10By the which will we [the seed of abraham] are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

A key element in Scriptural interpretation is making sure that your interpretation does not contradict directly with other Scriptures properly read.

The Scriptures I listed in my last post positively prove your interpretation wrong - or that the Bible explicitly contradicts itself. Suit yourself.

I can provide you alternative interpretation, if you are open to seeking the truth of God and allowing Sacred Scriptures to be reconciled with itself...

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

A key element in Scriptural interpretation is making sure that your interpretation does not contradict directly with other Scriptures properly read.

I know I am good..Those Jesus christ died for are perfected forever..heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[chestertonrules]

fran:

A key element in Scriptural interpretation is making sure that your interpretation does not contradict directly with other Scriptures properly read.

I know I am good..Those Jesus christ died for are perfected forever..heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Jesus died for all men. However, if we reject his grace we will not be sanctified or saved.

Sanctification requires our permission and cooperation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

chester:

Jesus died for all men

For all the seed of abraham He died and by His death, they are before God, perfected forever..heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them [the seed of abraham] that are sanctified.

 

[chestertonrules]

chester:

Jesus died for all men

For all the seed of abraham He died and by His death, they are before God, perfected forever..heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them [the seed of abraham] that are sanctified.

Jesus died for all men. We can only be sanctified forever if we persevere.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace57]

chester:

Jesus died for all men

Jesus died for all the seed of abraham, and those He died for are before God, perfected forever Heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Thats perfect past tense..

 

[francisdesales]

fran:

A key element in Scriptural interpretation is making sure that your interpretation does not contradict directly with other Scriptures properly read.

I know I am good..Those Jesus christ died for are perfected forever..heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yea, I heard this childish strategy before... Just repeat it over and over again and ignore even the Bible that says the opposite. Plug your ears and don't even read the other guy's work - heck, he might be right, for heaven's sake...

My kid at 4 years old used the same tactics as you do and he didn't impress me with his line of arguments either...

I'll let my citations of Sacred Scripture show everyone else how little you actually believe they are God's Word.

 

[Geo]

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12

This talks about the reality of what it means to saints personally.

It's the "practical implementation" and how an apostle views it without any dogma of men

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus died for all the seed of abraham, and those He died for are before God, perfected forever Heb 10:

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Thats perfect past tense..

All men = EVERYONE. He died for the seed of Abraham and those who are not the seed of Abraham. Where does the Bible say Jesus did not die for sinners?

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended... Phil 3:11-13

Paul said he wasn't perfected. Present tense... Guess you are wrong still. Present tense.

 

[francisdesales]

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12

This talks about the reality of what it means to saints personally.

It's the "practical implementation" and how an apostle views it without any dogma of men

I don't know about "dogmas of men", since Paul didn't teach dogmas of men. He was simply stating that he was GROWING IN HOLINESS and had not yet achieved perfection.

This ain't brain surgery here. NONE of us is perfectly in Christ in this life. When we sin, we show that for everyone to see (except those who, as John says, are deceiving themselves)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

NONE of us are perfect because we still sin. Those who think otherwise do not have the truth in them.

 

[glorydaz]

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12

This talks about the reality of what it means to saints personally.

It's the "practical implementation" and how an apostle views it without any dogma of men

I don't know about "dogmas of men", since Paul didn't teach dogmas of men. He was simply stating that he was GROWING IN HOLINESS and had not yet achieved perfection.

This ain't brain surgery here. NONE of us is perfectly in Christ in this life. When we sin, we show that for everyone to see (except those who, as John says, are deceiving themselves)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

NONE of us are perfect because we still sin. Those who think otherwise do not have the truth in them.

All true....we have Christ's imputed righteousness because we are washed in His blood.
We will all sin until we're given new glorified bodies...but sins are not laid at our door.
The price was paid on the cross. He became sin...all sin...every man's sin. We appropriate that forgiveness by faith when we're covered with the blood of the Lamb.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[chestertonrules]

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You will be judged for your actions. God is offering his grace to you. Use it to please him and follow his will.

Don't say you haven't been warned:


Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[glorydaz]

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You will be judged for your actions. God is offering his grace to you. Use it to please him and follow his will.

Don't say you haven't been warned:


Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Are you speaking to me?