Pharisees believe in God, but killed Jesus, why they didn't accept God's incarnation?

[th1b.taylor]

I wasn't taking issue. I was trying to figure out why you mentioned the high priest's in relation to Luke 23:34. Please explain.

When I clarified that verse, I am the one person that separated it completely from the Jewish People and stated He was asking the Father not to lay that charge, His murder, at the soldiers feet. You might do well to reread.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I imagine that he knew Jesus, son of David, was the Messiah, after all they had access to the genealogies, but he didn't know what that meant. Since no one could fully accept Jesus was God before the resurrection, it follows that he believed a mere human messiah leading a Jewish revolt against Rome was futile. Thus it would be better to crucify Jesus than invite the kind of apocalypse Judaism experienced in 70AD.

A slightly different perspective than I "had" and I need to step up to the throne, fall down on my face and ask. I am leaning, very strongly, toward agreement. Thank you!

 

[reba]

The birth of Christ , His death ,resurrection . was all Gods timing.,, man for or against God was not going to change God;s timing.. Christ was foretold of way way back in the beginning"

 

[th1b.taylor]

The pharisee's were meant to show us that the hearts of sincerely religious people can be the coldest hardest wickedest hearts there are on the planet.

And from that, we might observe the even larger questions, the sights and rebukes of Jesus upon them and ask ourselves in the process,

WHY?

The Word of God in Christ answers the larger questions, OPENLY. Yet in the halls of Judaism and Christianity to this day we'll still never hear the truth of this matter, ever, from blinded religious leaders nor will it be accepted in the pews.

God's Words can not come forth in truth and in honesty, from their hearts or their mouths by Divine Design. It can not be done. They could not "hear" or "perceive" or "see" then and it is not one bit different today.

Matthew 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

IF we don't want to be pharisee's, hypocrites. If we don't want to hear what Jesus had to say to these men, ourselves, then we are no different than they were.

Religious people simply can not hear the facts of these matters. It is impossible for them to hear. They will not hear. They will refuse to hear. They can not see. They will refuse to see.

And even here, when these Words of Jesus are brought forth, these Words of God in Christ will be resisted, they will not be heard or seen, guaranteed by God Himself.

There is not a religious person alive who's own flesh will not rise to resist Gods Factual Word Disclosures above. The flesh will not and can not hear or see. It is contrary to the Spirit and will resist God's Disclosures every single last time and will do so repeatedly, over and over again and again, til it DIES.

I do not expect any other outcome. It will be as God has said.

This is the meal of God in Christ that must be force fed, by those in the Spirit, to our own flesh:

-are full of extortion and excess
-are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
-within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The facts of God are as clear as a ringing bell. Evil comes from within. We are all made up inside, beyond any and all doubt, of good and evil.

The evil will never hear. Never see. Never submit to this fact. It can not be done because it's EVIL.

God calls us to Himself, even commanding us to His Threshold, with a WHOLE HEART.

And in that heart, is good and evil.

There is no hiding the obvious, except by the evil, in man.

When Jesus disclosed to His Disciples, that He would be betrayed by 'one' of them, every man of them said "is it ME?" "Is is ME?" Every one of those men did not hear.

The evil in the heart of all men will DENY Jesus every time, down to the last man, and will refuse to see the evil in our own hearts and will say, "is it ME?" "is is ME?"

Yeah, it's you. It's me. It's all.

What's really odd is that the most common sense matter that can be perceived by everyone, believer or unbeliever, goes continually unattended.

Only a liar says in his heart, that "I do not have evil thoughts" therein.

No liar will be allowed past Heaven's Gate.

The very things we work so HARD to try to avoid having, yet have regardless, is extremely deceptive.

Paul laid down his own life as an Apostle, a SPEAKER of GOD'S TRUTH, on the bed of brutal personal honesty.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Any person who can not hear this and admit it to themselves and others, has no place in Christ. They are in fact openly proven liars, by denial of the most obvious thing on earth that everyone knows, but can not say.

We can all put on our phony religious Pharisee cloth now and pretend it isn't so.

Do you know that the meaning of HYPOCRITE is ACTOR?

Do you know that actors are actually professional liars, professional pretenders, by trade?

Do you wonder why the world of flesh ADORES actors and sets them on the highest rung of society? And puts them on the BIG SCREEN and behind the podiums of all governments.

The flesh world worships PROFESSIONAL LIARS.

The flesh world chases after this standard. Gives them money, adores their lies and pretending. Heaps their attentions upon them. GIVES THESE LIARS AND PRETENDERS THEIR ALL.

Look at the world around you, and see AND hear, the message that GOD IS GIVING and has set before our own eyes to see.

Is it me? Don't make me laugh.

Very astute observation. You have nailed my foot to the floor!

 

[Sinthesis]

A slightly different perspective than I "had" and I need to step up to the throne, fall down on my face and ask. I am leaning, very strongly, toward agreement. Thank you!

As fallible humans we often come to wrong conclusions for all the right reasons. It's easy to dismiss others as evil, when they may actually be misguided yet intend well. I believe loving others as yourself means granting the benefit of the doubt; in effect being willing to play devil's advocate rather than simply labeling others as evil. Thus I ponder how and why someone who thinks they are acting correctly could be so misguided, and can I be vulnerable to the same deception. Then again some people are just psychopaths.

 

[MarkT]

The pharisee's were meant to show us that the hearts of sincerely religious people can be the coldest hardest wickedest hearts there are on the planet.

And from that, we might observe the even larger questions, the sights and rebukes of Jesus upon them and ask ourselves in the process,

WHY?

The Word of God in Christ answers the larger questions, OPENLY. Yet in the halls of Judaism and Christianity to this day we'll still never hear the truth of this matter, ever, from blinded religious leaders nor will it be accepted in the pews.

God's Words can not come forth in truth and in honesty, from their hearts or their mouths by Divine Design. It can not be done. They could not "hear" or "perceive" or "see" then and it is not one bit different today.

Matthew 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

IF we don't want to be pharisee's, hypocrites. If we don't want to hear what Jesus had to say to these men, ourselves, then we are no different than they were.

Religious people simply can not hear the facts of these matters. It is impossible for them to hear. They will not hear. They will refuse to hear. They can not see. They will refuse to see.

And even here, when these Words of Jesus are brought forth, these Words of God in Christ will be resisted, they will not be heard or seen, guaranteed by God Himself.

There is not a religious person alive who's own flesh will not rise to resist Gods Factual Word Disclosures above. The flesh will not and can not hear or see. It is contrary to the Spirit and will resist God's Disclosures every single last time and will do so repeatedly, over and over again and again, til it DIES.

I do not expect any other outcome. It will be as God has said.

This is the meal of God in Christ that must be force fed, by those in the Spirit, to our own flesh:

-are full of extortion and excess
-are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
-within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The facts of God are as clear as a ringing bell. Evil comes from within. We are all made up inside, beyond any and all doubt, of good and evil.

The evil will never hear. Never see. Never submit to this fact. It can not be done because it's EVIL.

God calls us to Himself, even commanding us to His Threshold, with a WHOLE HEART.

And in that heart, is good and evil.

There is no hiding the obvious, except by the evil, in man.

When Jesus disclosed to His Disciples, that He would be betrayed by 'one' of them, every man of them said "is it ME?" "Is is ME?" Every one of those men did not hear.

The evil in the heart of all men will DENY Jesus every time, down to the last man, and will refuse to see the evil in our own hearts and will say, "is it ME?" "is is ME?"

Yeah, it's you. It's me. It's all.

What's really odd is that the most common sense matter that can be perceived by everyone, believer or unbeliever, goes continually unattended.

Only a liar says in his heart, that "I do not have evil thoughts" therein.

No liar will be allowed past Heaven's Gate.

The very things we work so HARD to try to avoid having, yet have regardless, is extremely deceptive.

Paul laid down his own life as an Apostle, a SPEAKER of GOD'S TRUTH, on the bed of brutal personal honesty.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Any person who can not hear this and admit it to themselves and others, has no place in Christ. They are in fact openly proven liars, by denial of the most obvious thing on earth that everyone knows, but can not say.

We can all put on our phony religious Pharisee cloth now and pretend it isn't so.

Do you know that the meaning of HYPOCRITE is ACTOR?

Do you know that actors are actually professional liars, professional pretenders, by trade?

Do you wonder why the world of flesh ADORES actors and sets them on the highest rung of society? And puts them on the BIG SCREEN and behind the podiums of all governments.

The flesh world worships PROFESSIONAL LIARS.

The flesh world chases after this standard. Gives them money, adores their lies and pretending. Heaps their attentions upon them. GIVES THESE LIARS AND PRETENDERS THEIR ALL.

Look at the world around you, and see AND hear, the message that GOD IS GIVING and has set before our own eyes to see.

Is it me? Don't make me laugh.

This is what you get when your entire theology rests on one line in the Bible. And it's not even a teaching Jesus gave us. It's Paul's complaint. It always seems to be Paul. Free Grace has the same problem with Paul.

Paul says he has a thorn, a messenger of Satan in his flesh which keeps him from being too elated by the abundance of revelations he receives. There's no spiritual teaching in this. It is just his way of saying the beatings he received at the hands of the Jews have left him physically weak. Romans 12:5-10

And when we speak of the flesh and the desire of the flesh, keep it in mind that there are about 60 chemical elements that make up the flesh. So when we are speaking of the flesh, we are speaking of all the biochemical reactions that take place in the flesh. The flesh literally has a desire for sin. We know there are pleasure centres in the brain which are flooded with dopamine when they are activated by drugs, alcohol, sex, and money. So Paul writes he doesn't see anything good in his flesh; the desire of the flesh is always pleasure. It makes him do what he doesn't want to do (as a law in his members) while his mind serves the gospel. Romans 7:13-25

As for being good, Jesus said we are evil. Mt. 7:11That doesn't mean Satan is living in us.

As for the Pharisees, God made them for their purpose. He gave them a heart and a mind to serve Satan. He made them fertile ground for the devil's lies. Why didn't they believe Jesus? Because they were not meant to believe him. They were meant for destruction.

 

[smaller]

This is what you get when your entire theology rests on one line in the Bible.

Sin/evil in relationship to mankind is not a one liner observation from the scriptures and this also relates to the "issues/problems" of the pharisees. Then and now.

And it's not even a teaching Jesus gave us. It's Paul's complaint. It always seems to be Paul. Free Grace has the same problem with Paul.

There is no difference between what Jesus shows us and what Paul shows us.

Paul says he has a thorn, a messenger of Satan in his flesh which keeps him from being too elated by the abundance of revelations he receives. There's no spiritual teaching in this. It is just his way of saying the beatings he received at the hands of the Jews have left him physically weak. Romans 12:5-10

And that would be an example of personal insertion rather than the obvious statement.

And when we speak of the flesh and the desire of the flesh, keep it in mind that there are about 60 chemical elements that make up the flesh. So when we are speaking of the flesh, we are speaking of all the biochemical reactions that take place in the flesh.

I've heard just about every angle there is to see sin not being demonic and instead blamed on anything else. Lusts, temptations and deceptions of/in the flesh are not caused by people being skin bags holding chemicals nor is sin mere chemical reactions anymore than thoughts being random elements of chemical reactions coupled with minor jolts of electrical stimulations.

And the devil is not a chemical in a skin bag either but a 'real' anti-Christ spiritual adversary that operates "in" mankind via the avenues presented in the scriptures, just as scriptures propose. Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8, Eph. 2:2, Eph. 6:11, etc etc.

Anyone who doesn't factor the devil and his messengers into theology is missing half the account.

The flesh literally has a desire for sin. We know there are pleasure centres in the brain which are flooded with dopamine when they are activated by drugs, alcohol, sex, and money. So Paul writes he doesn't see anything good in his flesh; the desire of the flesh is always pleasure. It makes him do what he doesn't want to do (as a law in his members) while his mind serves the gospel. Romans 7:13-25

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. That much is a fact. Gal. 5:17.

I examine why that is the case, per scriptures, which do show us why. Nowhere in the scriptures are we entertained with a scientific chemical analysis of sin/evil. It doesn't exist.

As for being good, Jesus said we are evil. Mt. 7:11That doesn't mean Satan is living in us.

Sin is undoubtedly demonic per the scriptures. Being blinded by the god of this world resulting in unbelief is a universal element of mankind and Satan, Satan being "over" the person as a ruler or blinder IS what sin is entirely about. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

Sin is connected directly to the devil in 1 John 3:8 and there are no exceptions to this connection.

As for the Pharisees, God made them for their purpose. He gave them a heart and a mind to serve Satan. He made them fertile ground for the devil's lies. Why didn't they believe Jesus? Because they were not meant to believe him. They were meant for destruction.

Depends on how any viewer sees it. There are some big big theological holes in any sights where people see only man and miss the obvious other parties to the matters. We certainly know that the issues of the pharisees were also linked to the devil from John 8:44.

Unfortunately that form of blindness, of missing this particular very large fact, is still somewhat universal to this day. People tend to see only the person and always seem to miss the wicked spiritual elements of the scriptures that are not people only based matters.

And in doing such they are not going to get the real picture. It may not even be possible for such to get the real picture because the adversary is also real, and resists being discovered.

 

[MarkT]

There is no difference between what Jesus shows us and what Paul shows us.

Is Paul the Son of God that you say there is no difference? Of course there is a difference. Paul was commissioned to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus there is no Paul. So everything depends on Jesus.

So before you think you understand Paul, you should check if your understanding has any support in Jesus' teachings.

And that would be an example of personal insertion rather than the obvious statement.

It's an example of seeing what Paul is saying in the light of Christ, because there is no support for your teaching in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is speaking figuratively. The Jews who beat him were Satan. The injury to his side (the messenger of Satan) was probably a broken rib.

I've heard just about every angle there is to see sin not being demonic and instead blamed on anything else. Lusts, temptations and deceptions of/in the flesh are not caused by people being skin bags holding chemicals nor is sin mere chemical reactions anymore than thoughts being random elements of chemical reactions coupled with minor jolts of electrical stimulations.

And the devil is not a chemical in a skin bag either but a 'real' anti-Christ spiritual adversary that operates "in" mankind via the avenues presented in the scriptures, just as scriptures propose. Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8, Eph. 2:2, Eph. 6:11, etc etc.

Anyone who doesn't factor the devil and his messengers into theology is missing half the account.

Did you read, 'if your hand causes you to sin, if your eye causes you to sin'? Mt. 5:29-30 Doesn't Jesus speak of both body and soul? Mt. 10:28 What do you think Paul is talking about when he calls his body a body of sin and death? Romans 7:21-25

Then James said, "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. James 1:13-15

So sin comes from desire. Don't mistake Satan who is the liar and sin which comes from our own desire.

So when I said, 'the flesh', I am including the skin. I'm not saying the devil is a chemical in a skin bag. The flesh is the body. It's the outside. The soul is inside. There's an outside which can be seen, and an inside that can not be seen. So what we see and hear on the outside is the world, and Satan is the ruler of it. So we see false teachers, greed, immorality and so on, and this disturbs us.

Satan is the liar. His sons, false teachers.

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. That much is a fact. Gal. 5:17.

Yep.

I examine why that is the case, per scriptures, which do show us why. Nowhere in the scriptures are we entertained with a scientific chemical analysis of sin/evil. It doesn't exist.

You have to understand, God is not ignorant. Jesus gave us teachings about the flesh ie. that which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The spirit is willing. The flesh is weak. Mt. 26:41

So if we receive some knowledge from the scientific community, and we test it, if it works, we can not just dismiss it. This knowledge indeed helps us understand the teachings we received from our Lord. It actually increases our faith in him.

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[smaller]

Is Paul the Son of God that you say there is no difference? Of course there is a difference. Paul was commissioned to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus there is no Paul. So everything depends on Jesus.

Never said otherwise. But to say there is a positional/teaching difference is problematic sight.

So before you think you understand Paul, you should check if your understanding has any support in Jesus' teachings.

I don't see any differences. I was referring to your observation here, as it appears you might suppose that Paul's "complaint" was different than what Jesus taught:

"And it's not even a teaching Jesus gave us. It's Paul's complaint. It always seems to be Paul. Free Grace has the same problem with Paul."

It's an example of seeing what Paul is saying in the light of Christ, because there is no support for your teaching in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm not making any special pleading so there is no "your teaching." I read and try to comprehend. Fairly simple for the most part.

Paul is speaking figuratively. The Jews who beat him were Satan. The injury to his side (the messenger of Satan) was probably a broken rib.

Uh, yeah, that's where your sight pretty much runs off the theological rails.

Satan and his messengers are a separate entity class all to themselves. People are not devils, devils are devils. This would be the "common" understanding of believers.

Did you read, 'if your hand causes you to sin, if your eye causes you to sin'? Mt. 5:29-30 Doesn't Jesus speak of both body and soul? Mt. 10:28 What do you think Paul is talking about when he calls his body a body of sin and death? Romans 7:21-25

There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus and the Apostles teach that man and devils are "overlapped" in the flesh. That means there are two distinct parties to view in theology.

It's only a pity when one of the parties is overlooked at the expense of the other.

IF your claim is true, that JEWS are SATAN, then we have some fairly large theological obstacles to hurdle. I'd be happy to delineate what problems this brings to the theological table. There are many.

So sin comes from desire. Don't mistake Satan who is the liar and sin which comes from our own desire.

There is no de-linking of the devil from sin unless we re-write the scriptures, eliminating for example, 1 John 3:8 or Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

Satan and his messengers are a very large element of the discourses of scripture.

So when I said, 'the flesh', I am including the skin. I'm not saying the devil is a chemical in a skin bag. The flesh is the body. It's the outside. The soul is inside. There's an outside which can be seen, and an inside that can not be seen. So what we see and hear on the outside is the world, and Satan is the ruler of it. So we see false teachers, greed, immorality and so on, and this disturbs us.

Satan is the liar. His sons, false teachers.

Let's draw a simple line here right now. Mankind are not devils. This is where I draw the theological line. Man is not the same as devil.

OR, in your view is MAN devil?

For my sight, the pharisees were blinded in mind by the devil or by the children of devils, but they, themselves as "man" were NOT devils. Therefore I see TWO separate and distinct parties to this particular drama, not just one.

If what Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is accurate, which I believe it is deadly accurate, then I have no reason to see that Mark 4:15 did NOT happen with the Pharisees or any other numbers of this identical showing in the scriptures.

And, if what Jesus said is TRUE in Mark 4:15, and what Paul said is true in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many more that are similar, THEN there is TWO parties to view in these equations. That would be MAN and DEVIL.

Amazing, isn't it?

Claiming that sin is a chemical reaction and ignoring the role of the devil with regards to sin is the only amazing thing to me, as in "how can people NOT see this connection?"

 

[th1b.taylor]

As for the Pharisees, God made them for their purpose. He gave them a heart and a mind to serve Satan. He made them fertile ground for the devil's lies. Why didn't they believe Jesus? Because they were not meant to believe him. They were meant for destruction.

Until I get to the last paragraph, I agree, completely. And then you go all Five Point Hyper Calvinist on us. God does not make man, any man to reside in Hell. That violates the very idea that God gave man a Free Will.

I am neither of the two extremes, Calvist/Five Point Hyper Calvinist nor Armenian because to be so so many scriptures must be ignored. A minister I love, Richard Clarke, that on his graduation, coined the term, Biblicist, because he believes the Bible is the Word of God, as do I. And before I knew him I knew I believed everything the Bible and after seating myself under Richard I knew he also believed all of the scriptures. I then, not knowing what to call myself, I adapted and from then on I have worn the label, Biblicist.

As such, there is nothing, literally, in the scriptures that I do not believe. I also teach, over and over that no scripture, passage of scripture nor collection of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on ti/them.

And that destroys both of the major perspectives of the Bible. May God bless you and yours.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Is Paul the Son of God that you say there is no difference?

Gal. 1:12-17 Paul's Gospel, an extreme misnomer, is the Gospel of Jesus. There might be different words but that is because men were inspired but allowed of God to word the revelation in their own sentence structured.

 

[MarkT]

Never said otherwise. But to say there is a positional/teaching difference is problematic sight.


I don't see any differences. I was referring to your observation here, as it appears you might suppose that Paul's "complaint" was different than what Jesus taught:

"And it's not even a teaching Jesus gave us. It's Paul's complaint. It always seems to be Paul. Free Grace has the same problem with Paul."

I'm not making any special pleading so there is no "your teaching." I read and try to comprehend. Fairly simple for the most part.

2 Cor. 12:7 is not a teaching; It's not meant to be. Jesus never taught it. The Scriptures don't teach it. Why would you think Paul is teaching something? If it was a teaching, Jesus would have taught it.

Jesus gave us the word of God. His word made us clean. His word opened our eyes. His word gave us hope. His word is life. 2 Cor. 12:7 is not the word of God.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.

Was a thorn given to you too? Are you Paul? In this case a thorn was given him. He called it a weakness. And then he said, 'For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor. 12:10

Was he saying he was content with Satan living in him? No.

Uh, yeah, that's where your sight pretty much runs off the theological rails.

Satan and his messengers are a separate entity class all to themselves. People are not devils, devils are devils. This would be the "common" understanding of believers.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus and the Apostles teach that man and devils are "overlapped" in the flesh. That means there are two distinct parties to view in theology.

It's only a pity when one of the parties is overlooked at the expense of the other.

IF your claim is true, that JEWS are SATAN, then we have some fairly large theological obstacles to hurdle. I'd be happy to delineate what problems this brings to the theological table. There are many.

In spirit they were Satan. It's like saying we are Israel in spirit; if you can grasp that concept, then why can't you see Paul is calling the Jewish authorities who beat him and stoned him Satan? Jesus called them a brood of vipers. Jesus had no problem with calling Judas a devil; he was a devil. The Pharisees were serpents. Look at the Serpent in the garden. Are serpents Satan? No. But in spirit the Serpent was Satan, the devil.

There is no de-linking of the devil from sin unless we re-write the scriptures, eliminating for example, 1 John 3:8 or Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

Satan and his messengers are a very large element of the discourses of scripture.


Let's draw a simple line here right now. Mankind are not devils. This is where I draw the theological line. Man is not the same as devil.

OR, in your view is MAN devil?

For my sight, the pharisees were blinded in mind by the devil or by the children of devils, but they, themselves as "man" were NOT devils. Therefore I see TWO separate and distinct parties to this particular drama, not just one.

If what Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is accurate, which I believe it is deadly accurate, then I have no reason to see that Mark 4:15 did NOT happen with the Pharisees or any other numbers of this identical showing in the scriptures.

And, if what Jesus said is TRUE in Mark 4:15, and what Paul said is true in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many more that are similar, THEN there is TWO parties to view in these equations. That would be MAN and DEVIL.

Claiming that sin is a chemical reaction and ignoring the role of the devil with regards to sin is the only amazing thing to me, as in "how can people NOT see this connection?"

What Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is true. It's true of everyone who doesn't understand.

Jesus said the Jews who wanted to stone him were of their father the devil.

They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did.41 You do what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:39-47

So they were not blinded by the devil; they were devils.
.

 

[smaller]

2 Cor. 12:7 is not a teaching; It's not meant to be.

Sorry. You just lost theological credibility with that claim.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Peter termed Paul's epistles to "scripture" as well:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Jesus never taught it.

He taught exactly that in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables. This same example of Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7 is found also with Peter in Matt. 16:23-24, Mark 8:33-34, with Judas in Luke 22:3, John 13:27 and even with John in 1 John 3:8 amongst just a few examples.

So, yeah. Scripturally this IS a real matter, and worthy of teaching from the scriptures.

The Scriptures don't teach it.

And again, as it applied to the Pharisees this same fact is taught by Jesus directly in John 8:44.

Why would you think Paul is teaching something? If it was a teaching, Jesus would have taught it.

I might say a person would be blind to miss it quite honestly.

Jesus gave us the word of God. His word made us clean. His word opened our eyes. His word gave us hope. His word is life. 2 Cor. 12:7 is not the word of God.

Paul scriptures are that. God Inspired scriptures. And meant to be used as stated in the citing above. And yes, 2 Cor. 12:7 is not only a part of that teaching, but an important part.

As far as being made clean, the flesh remains contrary to the Spirit in any cases of sight, and the intrusion of temptations and lusts by the tempter is a huge part of why the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. A contrariness that Paul himself had in his own flesh. Gal. 5:17, again among many other citings of similar nature.

Was a thorn given to you too? Are you Paul? In this case a thorn was given him. He called it a weakness.

Indeed there is a direct link to the statement of "thorn" being an association term to "messengers of Satan." There are many other similar links used via allegory in the scriptures. Briers, tares, chaff, stubble, children of the flesh, all are terms of association/allegory/parable/similitude to the devil and his messengers.

So, yes, the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh DID make him weak in the flesh.

1 Cor. 15:41-49 shows that we are ALL planted in weakness. Do the math.

Was he saying he was content with Satan living in him? No.

The Strength of God in Christ is overcoming that enemy. It does however require an enemy to overcome. That same enemy is RAISED to resist God by Divine Intentions. Shown for example in Romans 9:17 in the raising of Pharaoh, to resist. IF we are good students of Biblical Allegory/Similitude we WILL find that Pharaoh in the flesh was a type of showing of the adversary externally, but in reality is in fact The Great Dragon, the devil, Satan. Ezekiel 29:3. Many "external pictures" of the O.T. are in fact "similtudes" of Spiritual Matters such as this. Examples set externally to see INTERNAL matters in retrospect, by studies.

In spirit they were Satan. It's like saying we are Israel in spirit; if you can grasp that concept, then why can't you see Paul is calling the Jewish authorities who beat him and stoned him Satan?

Because MAN is not DEVIL. The people of Israel were taught by God to be children of God in places such as Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and by Jesus in Matt. 23:9.

God does not have DEVILS as children. But His children are placed UNDER these elemental spirits in the flesh.

Jesus called them a brood of vipers.

When believers use monovision, not using the scriptures to see MAN and DEVIL, stereo vision, they will not see and can't see.

Those men were invaded internally, by vipers. Another allegory of Satan deployed in the Garden in the first encounter. Jesus even refers to these as a generation, singular tense.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

They won't escape, and can't escape hell.

Jesus had no problem with calling Judas a devil; he was a devil.

Again, not. MAN is not DEVIL. We have 2 scriptural citings that show Satan "entered" into Judas. So, why not see the REAL DEVIL? But you might understand that there is a very certain BLINDNESS that these perps deploy in people so they CAN'T SEE the obvious.

So, good luck with your wrestling match. Eph. 6:11-13

 

[MarkT]

Until I get to the last paragraph, I agree, completely. And then you go all Five Point Hyper Calvinist on us. God does not make man, any man to reside in Hell. That violates the very idea that God gave man a Free Will.

I am neither of the two extremes, Calvist/Five Point Hyper Calvinist nor Armenian because to be so so many scriptures must be ignored. A minister I love, Richard Clarke, that on his graduation, coined the term, Biblicist, because he believes the Bible is the Word of God, as do I. And before I knew him I knew I believed everything the Bible and after seating myself under Richard I knew he also believed all of the scriptures. I then, not knowing what to call myself, I adapted and from then on I have worn the label, Biblicist.

As such, there is nothing, literally, in the scriptures that I do not believe. I also teach, over and over that no scripture, passage of scripture nor collection of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on ti/them.

And that destroys both of the major perspectives of the Bible. May God bless you and yours.

The Pharisees were devils.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:33

No way they were not going to hell.

 

[MarkT]

Sorry. You just lost theological credibility with that claim.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Peter termed Paul's epistles to "scripture" as well:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Does that mean I don't graduate? Hehe

I'm not looking for approval from the theologians. My approval comes from above.

The scriptures Peter is talking about, and that Paul also quotes from, are the Old Testament writings.

The word of God is in the Old Testament and in the Gospel writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wherein we find the words and teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless Paul is referring back to the beatings he received at the hands of the Jews. 2 Cor.11: 24-25

In 2 Cor. 12:7 he is neither quoting scripture, nor is he giving us any insight into any scripture from the OT.

A thorn - painful - to harass - bother, makes him weak. He finds strength in his weakness. 2 Cor. 12:10 Does that mean your devil makes him stronger?

He taught exactly that in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables. This same example of Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7 is found also with Peter in Matt. 16:23-24, Mark 8:33-34, with Judas in Luke 22:3, John 13:27 and even with John in 1 John 3:8 amongst just a few examples.

So, yeah. Scripturally this IS a real matter, and worthy of teaching from the scriptures.

Who taught exactly that? Jesus? Jesus taught exactly what? Jesus said the reason they did not believe was they were of the devil.

And again, as it applied to the Pharisees this same fact is taught by Jesus directly in John 8:44.

How is it the same fact? What fact? How is this related 2 Cor. 12:7?

I might say a person would be blind to miss it quite honestly.

Paul scriptures are that. God Inspired scriptures. And meant to be used as stated in the citing above. And yes, 2 Cor. 12:7 is not only a part of that teaching, but an important part.

His writings are not scripture. You can say they are inspired by scripture. That's something different. It comes from understanding the scriptures. But 2 Cor. 12:7 is not scripture.

As far as being made clean, the flesh remains contrary to the Spirit in any cases of sight, and the intrusion of temptations and lusts by the tempter is a huge part of why the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. A contrariness that Paul himself had in his own flesh. Gal. 5:17, again among many other citings of similar nature.

Gal. 5:17 says the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit. The flesh has desires like I said.

Indeed there is a direct link to the statement of "thorn" being an association term to "messengers of Satan." There are many other similar links used via allegory in the scriptures. Briers, tares, chaff, stubble, children of the flesh, all are terms of association/allegory/parable/similitude to the devil and his messengers.

So, yes, the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh DID make him weak in the flesh.

1 Cor. 15:41-49 shows that we are ALL planted in weakness. Do the math.

No they are not. The weeds are the sons of the evil one. ie. false teachers, false prophets.

Sown in weakness refers to the physical body.

The Strength of God in Christ is overcoming that enemy. It does however require an enemy to overcome. That same enemy is RAISED to resist God by Divine Intentions. Shown for example in Romans 9:17 in the raising of Pharaoh, to resist. IF we are good students of Biblical Allegory/Similitude we WILL find that Pharaoh in the flesh was a type of showing of the adversary externally, but in reality is in fact The Great Dragon, the devil, Satan. Ezekiel 29:3. Many "external pictures" of the O.T. are in fact "similtudes" of Spiritual Matters such as this. Examples set externally to see INTERNAL matters in retrospect, by studies.

But Paul is referring to the Pharaoh who was raised in Moses time. Sorry. Don't have time to take apart everything you know.

Because MAN is not DEVIL. The people of Israel were taught by God to be children of God in places such as Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and by Jesus in Matt. 23:9.

God does not have DEVILS as children. But His children are placed UNDER these elemental spirits in the flesh.

When believers use monovision, not using the scriptures to see MAN and DEVIL, stereo vision, they will not see and can't see.

Those men were invaded internally, by vipers. Another allegory of Satan deployed in the Garden in the first encounter. Jesus even refers to these as a generation, singular tense.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

They won't escape, and can't escape hell.

Again, not. MAN is not DEVIL. We have 2 scriptural citings that show Satan "entered" into Judas. So, why not see the REAL DEVIL? But you might understand that there is a very certain BLINDNESS that these perps deploy in people so they CAN'T SEE the obvious.

So, good luck with your wrestling match. Eph. 6:11-13

Jesus said he was a devil. So Satan entered him. So what? Does that mean he was not a devil?

 

[smaller]

Jesus said he was a devil. So Satan entered him. So what? Does that mean he was not a devil?

Scripture tells us that Satan entered Judas. Who is thee "devil" in that? Judas, the captive of the devil, OR Satan? Luke 23:3, John 13:27

This is pretty easy stuff.

The more general observation is that there are two separate and distinct parties to view. Judas and Satan. Just as there are 2 parties to view with Peter as in Peter and Satan. Obviously Peter wasn't Satan or a devil anymore than Judas was Satan or a devil.

The same observation can be made with the Pharisees from John 8:44. Yes, "children of the devil" aka demons/devils, entered those men, exactly as Mark 4:15 states. And again, this fact reveals 2 separate parties to view. The captive and the captor, devils.

The identical observation can be made with Paul from his 2 Cor. 12:7 statement. This is the same teaching that Paul makes in Romans 7, Romans 9:18-24, 1 Cor. 15:41-49, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21. These are all identical teachings from the Gospel, and they all direct us to see that there are 2 parties involved. The person and the captor in their flesh.

The same observation can be made with any of us, in our own sin, that being "of the devil." 1 John 3:8.

However pseudo religious devils are the worst. They can't see these things, nor speak of them "personally" and consider themselves immune from scriptural reality, and they can not because it's the truth, and truthful.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The Pharisees were devils.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:33

No way they were not going to hell.

Agreed and worth of my AMEN! But it was their free will choice that sent them to Hell.

 

[Sinthesis]

The Pharisees were devils.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:33

No way they were not going to hell.

Paul was a Pharisee.

 

[smaller]

Paul was a Pharisee.

Stated present tense, after salvation even.

Acts 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

 

[MarkT]

Scripture tells us that Satan entered Judas. Who is thee "devil" in that? Judas, the captive of the devil, OR Satan? Luke 23:3, John 13:27

This is pretty easy stuff.

The more general observation is that there are two separate and distinct parties to view. Judas and Satan. Just as there are 2 parties to view with Peter as in Peter and Satan. Obviously Peter wasn't Satan or a devil anymore than Judas was Satan or a devil.

Jesus said Judas was chosen. “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70 Jesus chose Judas to betray him. Jesus knew Judas was a devil. Only one of the twelve was a devil. Peter wasn't a devil.

The same observation can be made with the Pharisees from John 8:44. Yes, "children of the devil" aka demons/devils, entered those men, exactly as Mark 4:15 states.

Mark 4:15 doesn't say anything about devils entering the Pharisees. The Pharisees were devils.

Jesus said they were of their father, the devil. John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Mark 4:15 doesn't apply to devils. Jesus wasn't sent to save devils.

And again, this fact reveals 2 separate parties to view. The captive and the captor, devils.

The identical observation can be made with Paul from his 2 Cor. 12:7 statement. This is the same teaching that Paul makes in Romans 7, Romans 9:18-24, 1 Cor. 15:41-49, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21. These are all identical teachings from the Gospel, and they all direct us to see that there are 2 parties involved. The person and the captor in their flesh.

The same observation can be made with any of us, in our own sin, that being "of the devil." 1 John 3:8.

However pseudo religious devils are the worst. They can't see these things, nor speak of them "personally" and consider themselves immune from scriptural reality, and they can not because it's the truth, and truthful.

Was Paul a captive of the devil? I don't think so. Certainly 2 Cor. 12:7 doesn't say that. What Paul does say is the flesh is sinful. No mention of the devil in these passages -

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would.
Ephesians 2:3
Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.