Philadelphia Catholic Clergy Exposed

[thessalonian]

Von,

That was a very Christian example. Apology accepted. God bless.

 

[Gary]

Thess states premise (1): "It seems likely that other Apostles and perhaps all of them were not married as well."

Thess states premise (2): "I don't see Pauls words as a comand that a minister must be married. It just doesn't fit. It does fit the context of the time when most men the Church had to choose from for service were married."

What happened between Jesus' ministry and Paul's instructions? All the men got married? As you said.... "It just doesn't fit."

 

[Lewis]

I have said this before, God can, and does choose, certain people not to marry, it is a gift, and they do not suffer from sexual depravity, and it is to do the Lords work with out distractions, like when Paul said he wished that some were like him, but if you cannot contain, it is better to marry than to burn. The Catholic Priest at one time, were given permission to marry, and I forgot which Pope changed it back. But God wants marriage, He wants married men and women to have children. The Catholics have took it upon themselves, to forbid marriage to their priest, and nuns, it is not Biblical, and just look at the results, many priest would love to marry. There was a case about 7 or so years ago where a priest was in love with a women and they were going to get married, but it got back to the Vatican, and he was called to the Vatican by John Paul, and the next thing I knew the priest was denouncing the marriage, and I have never heard no more about it. The Protestant church leaders marry and have children, and it is Biblical. These priest when thier sexual desire comes down on them some of them cannot contain. It is hard to contain that, for a very long period of time, unless God has made you that way. But the Catholic church has a history of these breakdowns, because they are denied something that they have a Biblical right to do. And that is to marry and have sex with a wife. Now the Homosexual priest is another story.

 

[von]

So, as a Catholic, Thess, how do you feel about the priest being able to marry? The verse that says the bishop is to be the husband of one wife does not mean that he must have a wife but that if married he is to only have had one wife not multiple wives. It doesn't say that all pastors, priest or whatever title we choose to give them has to have a wife since there were men who were called eunuchs. But, as a Catholic how do you feel about that? They are trying to change things within the church, so would you be alright if the priests were allowed to marry?

 

[thessalonian]

So, as a Catholic, Thess, how do you feel about the priest being able to marry? The verse that says the bishop is to be the husband of one wife does not mean that he must have a wife but that if married he is to only have had one wife not multiple wives. It doesn't say that all pastors, priest or whatever title we choose to give them has to have a wife since there were men who were called eunuchs. But, as a Catholic how do you feel about that? They are trying to change things within the church, so would you be alright if the priests were allowed to marry?

The Eastern Rite priests, in full communion with Rome, are allowed to be married. There are even a few in the west who were grandfathered in from other denominations. It would not bother me if that is the way the Church decided to go. However I do not believe the Latin Rite will do it first of all because celibacy actually uplifts marriage for it is an acknowledgement of the great good that marriage is. There is no value in giving up a food one does not like. But if one gives up something he likes best there is value in that as a type of fast. Likewise, the Catholic Church reveres marriage as a sacrament (something most protestant Churches deny). So to give it up for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is to acknowledge the great good of marriage. As a practical matter also I find it unlikely since the priests in the Church put in long hours for the Church. They are not divided by family matters. I know the parish I go to they are always there late at night meeting with people and assisting in other affairs. This would be much more difficult with families.

I heard a poll some years ago that 60% of all protestant pastors said that if they had it all to do over again, considering the stresses the ministry put on family life, they would not have become pastors. The high turnover rate bears that out. I believe that in 3 years three years there is a 25% turnover of protestant pastors if I remember correctly.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

I have said this before, God can, and does choose, certain people not to marry, it is a gift, and they do not suffer from sexual depravity, and it is to do the Lords work with out distractions, like when Paul said he wished that some were like him, but if you cannot contain, it is better to marry than to burn. The Catholic Priest at one time, were given permission to marry, and I forgot which Pope changed it back. But God wants marriage, He wants married men and women to have children. The Catholics have took it upon themselves, to forbid marriage to their priest, and nuns, it is not Biblical, and just look at the results, many priest would love to marry. There was a case about 7 or so years ago where a priest was in love with a women and they were going to get married, but it got back to the Vatican, and he was called to the Vatican by John Paul, and the next thing I knew the priest was denouncing the marriage, and I have never heard no more about it. The Protestant church leaders marry and have children, and it is Biblical. These priest when thier sexual desire comes down on them some of them cannot contain. It is hard to contain that, for a very long period of time, unless God has made you that way. But the Catholic church has a history of these breakdowns, because they are denied something that they have a Biblical right to do. And that is to marry and have sex with a wife. Now the Homosexual priest is another story.

This was actually about a bishop in Africa and he married some moony woman outside the Church. The whole thing was crazy if you checked in to it. It's no proof of anything.

The Catholic Church holds marriage in very high regard. It even has it as one of the sacraments. How you can say that the Catholic Church does not have a high regard for marriage and family life is beyond me. The priests have an opportunity to be married. They are not fobidden marriage. Such accusations are nonsense. They choose celibacy of their own free will. They are not force to be celibate. It's a choice. Do you have problems with choices Lewis? The results are that most priests are true to their vows and vocations. The homosexual element has caused this scandal, not celibacy. Those who are the purpetrators have a disordered homosexual orientation. I have heard one of these priests speak about his disorder and how he was raised in an abusive home. He became a priest to escape his enviroment. He had homosexual tendancies and should not have become a priest.

 

[Lewis]

von, that is a man made law, that the Catholics go by. It is plain wrong to forbid them from having something that, they have a Biblical right to do. And even with the eunochs it was wrong to do what was done to them, so that they would not pay any attension to a woman sex wise. Most of the time Kings and Queens had that done, except for a period of time when the Catholics were doing it also to young boys to keep their voice high for choir singing well into their adulthood. And that is a documented fact. Now back to the main subject. These priest need to stand up and say we are not going to take this anymore. What are they going to do, fire all of them ? No, they will make changes.

 

[thessalonian]

gary is on my ignore list.

 

[Lewis]

Hmmmm, I found this. I did not know some of this stuff, but I am posting it.

Let's welcome back married priests

John Horan

A PREMISE IS A POWERFUL THING.

Logic depends on the ability to move from a premise to a conclusion based on the premise. Good premises make for sound conclusions. Ill-formed premises can lead to unintended conclusions.

One time-honored premiseâ€â€that celibacy is not essential to the priesthoodâ€â€is currently being applied inconsistently. Old questions are being asked in new ways. The case to welcome back married, resigned Catholic priests has been thunderously stated by, of all people, the pope. Forget justice, forget access to the Eucharist, both compelling enough in their own right. This is simply a matter of logic. Thomists everywhere, unite!

The starting premiseâ€â€celibacy is not essential to the priesthoodâ€â€is surely some-thing everyone agrees upon. Jesus explicitly chose married men as his apostles. Peter, a married man, was Jesus' handpicked leader. The epistles clearly contain references to married bishops and priests. For the first 12 centuries of church practice, 39 popes were married in addition to many priests and bishops. Three popes (Anastasius I, Saint Hormidas, and Sergius III) produced pope sons of their own, two of whom went on to be declared saints (Saint Innocent I and Saint Silverius).

But in the 11th century the starting premise was mothballed. Pope Gregory VII mandated that anyone seeking ordination must first pledge celibacy, stating that "the church cannot escape from the clutches of the laity unless priests first escape the clutches of their wives." The Second Lateran Council and Pope Innocent II (forgetting the example of his fifth-century namesake) effectively put a halt to the married priesthood in 1139.

The starting premise was chained up for centuries until June 1980 when Pope John Paul II fiddled with the lock. He made special pastoral provisions for married Protestant ministers who converted to Catholicism to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood, bringing along their wives and childrenâ€â€a provision that, to this day, most U.S. Catholics are unaware of.

Since then, 70 Episcopalians and an assortment of Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian clericsâ€â€most of them marriedâ€â€have converted to Catholicism and been ordained Catholic priests in the United States. The practice continues worldwide. Cardinal Basil Hume of England has, as of June 1998, ordained six Anglicans, five of whom were married.

In roughly that same time frame, 23,000 U.S. Catholic priests have left active ministry (100,000 worldwide). Twenty-five percent of the world's parishes are now said to be without resident priests. It is estimated that by the year 2000 there will be more Catholic priests who have left active ministry than institutionally active celibate priests.



SO HOW CAN WE START

from the same premiseâ€â€celibacy is not essential to the priesthoodâ€â€and end up with such different conclusions concerning formerly Protestant married priests and Catholic priests who resigned and then married?

This is the way the Vatican sees it for married Protestant ministers who have converted to Catholicism and are now practicing, married Catholic priests: The former ordained ministry of married Catholic priests allows for both marriage and ministry to be simultaneously practiced vocations. Becoming a Catholic priest should not require these clergy to forsake the marriage commitment made prior to becoming Catholic. The original promise of these priestsâ€â€to be Anglican and to minister to Anglican congregationsâ€â€can be renegotiated without it affecting their status as an active Catholic priest.

And this is the way the Vatican sees it for celibate Catholic priests: Being a Catholic means that priesthood and marriage can never be simultaneously practiced vocations. Becoming a Catholic priest requires forever forsaking a marriage commitment. Original promises by the celibate Catholic priestsâ€â€to be celibate while being a Catholic priestâ€â€cannot be negotiated without their active status as Catholic priests ending.

Clearly, the problem is not that the Catholic Church sees any problem with a married Catholic priesthood. The Holy See has affirmed this practice in both word and deed. The practice has been implemented without scandal to the faithful of the Latin Church. The problem is being Catholic to begin with. You can be a married Catholic priest if you started out a married Protestant minister. But you can't be a married priest if you started out Catholic.

If you are experiencing the beginning of a headache, you are not alone. Someone is confused.



WHY NOT WELCOME MARRIED CATHOLIC PRIESTS

back to active Catholic ministry the way we welcome recently converted married Protestant clergy? Church leaders assert that there are two major obstacles to this. First, they say that the Catholic who leaves the ministry in order to marry is in a significantly different situation than the married priest convert. The Catholic candidate, prior to his ordination as a priest, agrees to celibacy as a standard set by the church in 1139 for all priests ordained in the Latin Church. One state of life is freely accepted (celibacy); the other state of life (marriage) is put aside. But this does not bind the convert. His denomination permitted him to be both married and a minister. He did not promise to be celibate. Being received as a Catholic priest, therefore, should not require forsaking his freely chosen marriage commitment.

Second, it is simply not fair, the church says, to allow for the reentry of inactive married Catholic priests. Laymen who have chosen not to be priests and are now married would howl. Active celibate priests who have lived the long, solitary promise would howl. Seminarians who have not pursued or who have cut off promising romantic relationships would howl. People in the pews would howl because the Father who left to become a Mister is back as a Father Mister.

The groaning you hear is the sound of a national bishops' conference straining to dance on the head of a pin. The reasoning simply doesn't hold. Plus one has to ask how freely chosen the agreement to be celibate really is.

The fact of the matter is that most priests struggle with celibacyâ€â€a human-made requirement for ordination. They live with a prerequisite that must be complied with in order to get to their real call, which is to be a priest. Candidates to the priesthood desire, with all their hearts, to be priests. They pray, with all their hearts, that something might help them live out the celibacy cover charge in a relatively healthy and life-giving fashion.

Celibacy is a forced discipline, not a freely chosen commitment. We all know forced choices do not hold. If we can understand Protestant clergy forsaking a call to be Protestant and to minister to a Protestant denomination, why can't we be flexible with a Catholic priest being honest about an enforced discipline that no longer fits? The situations of the married Protestant minister and the married Catholic priest are, in fact, the same.

Catholics are regularly denied access to the Eucharist because of the priest shortage caused by the mandated requirement of celibacy. Last time I looked, the Eucharist was much closer to the heart of the Catholic faith than celibacy ever was.

So the question on everyone's mind is: If the starting premise is a good premise that everyone agrees with, why not change the enforced discipline of the Second Lateran Council? We changed it once. We can change it again.

"Nope," says the pope. The case is closed. Don't even ask. There is no prospect for the reversal of the obligation of celibacy in the West. It will not change during your lifetime. And the reasons given? None.



SO WHAT ARE WE TO DO?

I think the first thing to do is let people know about the starting premise that celibacy is not essential to the priesthood. Let Catholics figure out whether welcoming married, converted Protestant ministersâ€â€while excluding married Catholic priestsâ€â€makes sense. Let them fiddle some more with the lock on the box and move the furniture around a bit in their minds. See what happens.

The second thing is to encourage inactive married Catholic priests to act actively. There are plenty of places to start: rural parishes, people who want to get married but have been turned away from their parish, wake services, priestless parishes, and base communitiesâ€â€the list goes on and on, running from licit to illicit activity.

The third thing is to promise ourselves not to separate the issue of welcoming back married Catholic priests to active ministry from the issue of opening up the Catholic priesthood to women. It would be awful if married Catholic priests were admitted at the cost of continuing to exclude women from the priesthood. This, in my view, is too dear a price to pay.

The fourth thing is to watch our "special 70," our brothers in ministry who started out Protestant and are now Catholic priests. Let's welcome them for the families they are and the opportunity they represent. Let's take pictures of them, do follow-up articles, and perhaps create stained-glass windows of them for every church. In short time we will see that the idea of married Catholic priests is a fine thing and really no problem at all. In fact, it's a good idea, an idea whose time has come.

Last June, I attended the wedding of aâ€â€substitute your favorite adjectiveâ€â€inactive, ex-clerical, irregular, noncanonical, fallen, shamed, or procreatively challenged Catholic priest. Dave and Ann were married under a circus tent, there being no room for them in any of the 350-plus churches in that local diocese, four of which he had served with distinction in his previous 18 years as a priest.

Over half of those gathered in that makeshift prayer space were former parishioners of Dave's. After the ceremony, Anthony and his wife, Marie, waited just before me in the reception line. Middle-of-the-road Catholics in their late 50s, they raised three daughters (all married by Father Dave) and have seven grandchildren (all baptized by Father Dave).

Anthony and Marie were fired up. Why couldn't Father Dave be married in a Catholic church? Why were there no other priests present (i.e., pastor, classmates, and past associates)â€â€are they running scared? Why couldn't ex-Father Dave continue being Father Dave somehow? When will the losses of great priests like Father Dave end?

Who knows? The time is coming. In the meantime, thousands of us wait at the end of the receiving line, looking for the cracks on the periphery. It will have to be enough for now.

By John Horan, dean of students at North Lawndale College Preparatory High School in Chicago and a married priest.

http://www.uscatholic.org/1999/02/sb9902.htm

 

[Gary]

Several popes were married.

 

[Gary]

39 popes were married!

http://www.rentapriest.com/web/?_p=1018&newsId=25

 

[Lewis]

Three popes (Anastasius I, Saint Hormidas, and Sergius III) produced pope sons of their own, two of whom went on to be declared saints (Saint Innocent I and Saint Silverius).

And 3 had sons. He he he he. :

 

[Gary]

Married Popes

St. Felix III (483 - 492) Two children
St. Hormidas (514 - 523) Married before ordination
St. Silverus (536 - 537) Wife's name: Antonia
Hadrian II (867 - 872) One daughter
Clement IV (1265 - 1268) Two daughters
Felix V (1439 - 1449) One son

http://www.bessel.org/popes.htm

 

[Gary]

POPES WHO WERE SONS OF POPES AND OTHER CLERGY

POPE, YEAR OF PAPACY, HIS FATHER
St. Damasus I (366 - 384), St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I (401 - 417) Pope Anastasius I (399-401)
Boniface (418 - 422), A priest
St. Felix (483 - 492), A priest
Anastasius II (496 - 498), A priest
St. Agapitus I (535 - 536), Gordianus, priest
St. Silverius (536 - 537), Pope St. Hormidas (514 - 523)
Deusdedit (615 - 618), Stephen, sub-deacon
Theodore I (642 - 6490, A bishop
Marinus I (882 - 884), A priest
Boniface VI (896), Bishop Hadrian
John XI (931 - 935), Pope Sergius III (904-11)
John XV (989 - 996), Leo, priest

http://bessel.org/popes.htm

 

[Lewis]

Even though this has nothing to do with what we are talking about, I just thought I would throw this in there. Because a lot of people would not believe it.

There were three African Popes who came from the region of North Africa. Although there are no authentic portraits of these popes, there are drawings and references in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to their being of African background. The names of the Three African Popes are: Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.). All are saints.

Pope Saint Victor 1

Saint Victor was born in Africa and bore a Latin name as most African did at that time. Saint Victor was the fifteenth pope and a native of black Africa. He served from 186 A.D. until 197 A.D. He served during the reign of Emperor Septimus Severus, also African, who had led Roman legions in Britain. Some of the known contributions of Victor were his reaffirming the holy feast of Easter to be held on Sunday as Pius has done. As a matter of fact, he called Theophilous, Bishop of Alexandria, on the carpet for not doing this. He also condemned and excommunicated Theodore of Byzantium because of the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. He added acolytes to the attendance of the clergy. He was crowned with martyrdom. He was pope for ten years, two months and ten days. He was buried near the body of the apostle Peter, the first pope in Vatican. Some reports relate that St. Victor died in 198 A.D. of natural causes. Other accounts stated he suffered martyrdom under Servus. He is buried in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City near the "Convessio."

Pope Saint Victor 1 feast day is July 28th.

Pope Saint Gelasius 1

Saint Gelasius was born in Rome of African parents and was a member of the Roman clergy from youth. Of the three African popes, Gelasius seems to have been the busiest. He occupied the holy papacy four years, eight months and eighteen days from 492 A.D. until 496 A.D. Gelasius followed up Militades' work with the Manicheans. He exiled them from Rome and burned their books before the doors of the basilica of the holy Mary. He delivered the city of Rome from the peril of famine. He was a writer of strong letters to people of all rank and classes. He denounced Lupercailia, a fertility rite celebration. He asked them sternly why the gods they worshipped had not provided calm seas so the grain ships could have reached Rome in time for the winter. He wrote to Femina, a wealthy woman of rank, and asked her to have the lands of St. Peter, taken by the barbarians and the Romans, be returned to the church. The lands were needed for the poor who were flocking to Rome. His theory on the relations between the Church and the state are explained in the Gelasian Letter to the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius. He was known for his austerity of life and liberality to the poor.

There is today in the library of the church at Rome a 28 chapter document on church administration and discipline. Pope Saint Gelasius 1 feast day is November 21st.

Pope Saint Miliades 1

Saint Miltiades was one of the Church's Black Popes. Militades occupied the papacy from 311 to 314 A.D. serving four years, seven months and eight days. Militiades decreed that none of the faithful should fast on Sunday or on the fifth day of the week ...because this was the custom of the pagans. He also found residing in Rome a Persian based religion call Manichaenism. He furthered decreed that consecrated offerings should be sent throughout the churches from the pope's consecration. This was call leaven. It was Militiades who led the church to final victory over the Roman Empire. Militiades was buried on the famous Appain Way.

Pope Saint Militiades feast day is December 10th.

 

[Gary]

POPES WHO FATHERED CHILDREN AFTER THE CELIBACY LAW OF 1139

Innocent III (1484 - 1492) Several children
Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) 2 grandchildren were Cardinals
Julius (1503 - 1513) Three daughters
Paul III (1534 - 1549) One daughter, three sons
Pius IV (1559 - 1565) Three sons
Gregory XIII (1572 - 1585) One son

:-?

 

[Lewis]

Them popes were not playing around :

 

[Gary]

Even the Vatican admits....

In the Vatican document, Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church, Roman Cholij writes, "It is clear from the New Testament (Mark 1:29-31; Matthew 8:14-15; Luke 4:38-39; 1 Timothy 3:2, 1 Timothy 3:12; Titus 1:6) that at least the Apostle Peter had been married, and that bishops, presbyters and deacons of the Primitive Church were often family men."

"It is also clear from epigraphy, the testimony of the Fathers, synodal legislation, papal decretals and other sources that in the following centuries, a married clergy, in greater or lesser numbers was a normal feature of the life of the Church. Even married popes are known to us."

Source: vatican.va

 

[Lewis]

Here you go von.

What about the Catholic castration of choir boys in the middle ages?

You basically covered everything and all scandals except for one. In 1599, Pope Clement VIII gave the ok for castrated young boy's to sing in the Church. This went on for the next 280 years or so until Pope Leo in 1878 finally stopped it. Two hundred and eighty years of castrating young boy's with the Pope and the Church giving approval for this barbaric procedure so the Church could have high pitched singers because women were not allowed to sing in the Church. The boy's were called the castrati and the Church sanctioned it. How on God's good earth could an institution who say's that it comes from God condone the mutilation of young boy's and let it go for so many years and so many pope's not doing anything about it and even approving it is beyond me.

Yup, there were lots of bad popes. One thing to note is that none of the popes from 1599-1878 have been canonized as Saints. (although 2 have been declared Blessed - Pious IX and Innocent XI ) Out of 26 Popes during that time period only 2 are even being considered for canonization. That indicates that the Catholic Church is not too impressed with its Popes during that time frame. Contrast that with the fact that almost all of the early Popes are recognized as saints and there are usually a couple of Popes recognized as saints during each century of virtually every other period in Church history.

 

[Lewis]

You basically covered everything and all scandals except for one. In 1599, Pope Clement VIII gave the ok for castrated young boy's to sing in the Church. This went on for the next 280 years or so until Pope Leo in 1878 finally stopped it. Two hundred and eighty years of castrating young boy's with the Pope and the Church giving approval for this barbaric procedure so the Church could have high pitched singers because women were not allowed to sing in the Church. The boy's were called the castrati and the Church sanctioned it. How on God's good earth could an institution who say's that it comes from God condone the mutilation of young boy's and let it go for so many years and so many pope's not doing anything about it and even approving it is beyond me.

Now that was a low down dirty shame, to do them kids like that.