Philadelphia Catholic Clergy Exposed

[thessalonian]

Lewis, what does "obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls" mean to you. Apparently nothing. Yes, celibacy is a matter of discipline. But the bible does not say there cannot be such disciplines in fact it is quite clear that there were. Everyone was giving all their property to the Church in Acts 4. Do you do that? Oh my, Annaius and his wife were even struck down for doing it in a decietful way. Take heed.

As for Clement VIII requiring castration or approving it, I highly doudt it. It is a different matter to let them sing in Church. Why would he not. Are they no longer human beings after this was done such that they cannot worship God with their voices. Is there something wrong with liking the music produced by them? Do you wish to dehumanize them because someone did them wrong? Produce the document that says they can or must be castrated.

Oh my, a Pope excommunicated someone for denying the divinity of Christ. You don't think such people who are under the Popes authority and are teaching error (or do you deny the divinity as well) to the Masses should not be excommunicated. In those days the people were not nearly as educated as today and the Church needed to let all know who was Orthodox and who was teaching error, especially among those who claimed to be clergy. You would have people figure it all out for themselves like they do today. What a mess we have today with thousands of denominations and nobody able to definitively say what is true except for "believe in jesus".

 

[thessalonian]

Three popes (Anastasius I, Saint Hormidas, and Sergius III) produced pope sons of their own, two of whom went on to be declared saints (Saint Innocent I and Saint Silverius).

And 3 had sons. He he he he. :

What's funny here Lewis. It seems that some juvenile behavior is comming out.
I've said before priests can and have been married. It's a current discipline. What's your point in posting this. You look at all of this stuff from the outside and twist it to your advantage. Revise history and try to lead Catholics from the Church through deception and revised history. That is not the way of God. If you don't know what you are talking about on a particular matter, it's best to shut up rather than try to gain advantage by bearing false witness as you so often do. This is not of God.

 

[thessalonian]

From what I am reading on the net, the Church forbid such castrations under penalty of excommunication LONG BEFORE LEO's ban on them singing in Church. Protestants as a matter of fact it appears also let them sing in Churches. So once again we are only getting half the story from those who wish to make it an issue against the Catholic Church.

 

[von]

Thess- I just want to know your personal opinion on the priests being married, and how about the pope. If the decision were up to you would you allow it or do you think that it should remain the same? I want to ask you another question. are the people (congregation) allowed to have an opinion in the changes that are made within the church or is that only allowed by leadership? These are not trick questions, I am just wondering how the "lay people", if you will, feel about these issues.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess- I just want to know your personal opinion on the priests being married, and how about the pope. If the decision were up to you would you allow it or do you think that it should remain the same? I want to ask you another question. are the people (congregation) allowed to have an opinion in the changes that are made within the church or is that only allowed by leadership? These are not trick questions, I am just wondering how the "lay people", if you will, feel about these issues.

I would be against priests getting married. I believe it is a good thing, considering how sexually disordered society is. It is good for young men to have examples of men living chastely throughout their lives. Most priests are true to their vow or chastity. This gives the message to teenagers who have their hormones going ninety miles an hour that they can make it till marriage. It is very important to have models of chastity in society.

By "allowed" what do you mean. I don't know of many excommunications going on these days. There have been a few. The latest one was where some women were "ordained" (they can't really be) as priests.
Some areas such as this one, opinions are okay. I don't hold it against Catholics who think priests should be married, though the majority I know, side toward a celebate priesthood. Matters that are doctrinal allow for some dissent, though public dissent is bad. Dogmatic matters such as the nature of the real prescenc of Christ in the Lord's Supper are not open for discussion. Matters such as women in the priesthood are still matters of dissent, even though it has been made pretty clear there will not be married priests in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not on a witch hunt for people who disagree with the Church, though personally I would like to see a few more get booted out for things like voting for abortion rights. I hope that answers your question.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Von,

In light of Matt 16:18, Jer 3:15, and 2 Tim 2:2 do you think God expects us to submit to teaching of the Church or figure it out for ourselves?

 

[D46]

I would be against priests getting married. I believe it is a good thing, considering how sexually disordered society is. It is good for young men to have examples of men living chastely throughout their lives. Most priests are true to their vow or chastity. This gives the message to teenagers who have their hormones going ninety miles an hour that they can make it till marriage. It is very important to have models of chastity in society.

This is totally against the nature God has put within us. What about those who still have hormones raging at 50 mph? Are they less likely to sin? I don't believe celibacy is natural and it's sure not scriptual.

1 Tmothy 4:3 (KJV) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Thess...why do you think there have been so many problems within the RCC involving priest molesting nuns and alter boys? There has to be an outlet somewhere...we're not made of steel. Not everyone has the "gift" Paul had.

1 Corinthians 7:9 (KJV) But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

These priest are not setting the example you spoke of to the youth when the headlines are always reading about some sexual crime committed in the local diocese somewhere.

I can't see the deal about them not being allowed to marry and lead a life of normalcy

 

[von]

Thess- I believe that we are to be under pastors and teachers. I also believe that we are to be careful as to what we are taught. Not everyone in the ministry is actually chosen. The Bible says many are called, but few are chosen. I read for myself, because the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. I just make sure that what I am being taught is scriptural. Otherwise we end up with people in cults because they believe everything that a man tells them, like the Waco thing and David Koresh.

 

[Gary]

I would be against priests getting married. I believe it is a good thing, considering how sexually disordered society is. It is good for young men to have examples of men living chastely throughout their lives. Most priests are true to their vow or chastity. This gives the message to teenagers who have their hormones going ninety miles an hour that they can make it till marriage. It is very important to have models of chastity in society.

Much better role-models for a teenagers (both male and female) are successful and faithful marriages; starting with their own parents. Children brought up correctly by loving parents who lead by example and by their teachings will encourage a teenager to respect the sanctity and special relationship of marriage. They can be taught about love and what role a sexual relationship plays in that loving relationship by example.

The role model is not chastity... it is love in the correct relationship before God. That is called marriage.

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[cj]

The role model is not chastity... it is love in the correct relationship before God. That is called marriage.

Yup,.... and it finds its highest peak in the ultimate marriage of the corporate bride to the beloved Son.


In love,
cj

 

[Gary]

Some areas such as this one, opinions are okay. I don't hold it against Catholics who think priests should be married, though the majority I know, side toward a celebate priesthood.

..... and 73 percent said that priests should be permitted to marry.

(The random telephone survey of 401 men and women over 18 who identified themselves as Catholics was conducted July 20 and 21 1992 by KRC Communications Research of Newton. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percent.)
http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/a ... 2_poll.htm

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Network evening newscasts rarely cite polls other than their own, but on Monday's CBS Evening News Bob Schieffer touted an AP/Ipsos poll which, he reported, found that "American Catholics hope whoever succeeds the Pope will make some changes in the church." Schieffer proceeded to cite majority support for allowing priests to marry and the ordaining of women as priests.

Schieffer announced on the April 4 CBS Evening News, over graphics displaying the three poll numbers he cited: "American Catholics hope whoever succeeds the Pope will make some changes in the church. An Associated Press poll out today says that 63 percent of American Catholics say the new Pope should give lay people a greater say in running the church; 60 percent say the new Pope should allow priests to marry; the same number support ordaining women as priests."

http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2005/cyb20050405.asp#1

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2005 Catholic poll: Attitudes of Catholics highly committed to the church

Responses to priest shortages: Married men allowed to be ordained = 75%

Source: - Table -
- Report -

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[thessalonian]

I would be against priests getting married. I believe it is a good thing, considering how sexually disordered society is. It is good for young men to have examples of men living chastely throughout their lives. Most priests are true to their vow or chastity. This gives the message to teenagers who have their hormones going ninety miles an hour that they can make it till marriage. It is very important to have models of chastity in society.

This is totally against the nature God has put within us. What about those who still have hormones raging at 50 mph? Are they less likely to sin? I don't believe celibacy is natural and it's sure not scriptual.

1 Tmothy 4:3 (KJV) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Thess...why do you think there have been so many problems within the RCC involving priest molesting nuns and alter boys? There has to be an outlet somewhere...we're not made of steel. Not everyone has the "gift" Paul had.

1 Corinthians 7:9 (KJV) But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

These priest are not setting the example you spoke of to the youth when the headlines are always reading about some sexual crime committed in the local diocese somewhere.

I can't see the deal about them not being allowed to marry and lead a life of normalcy

Matt 19
10. The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
11. But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

D46 says, oh no Jesus this is wrong. It's against the nature of man not to marry. Jesus doesn't no human nature? You think marriage is the solution to molestation problems? What, there is no homosexuality or pedophilia among married men? Your kidding I hope. No rape among married men? Are you this foolish? http://www.reformation.com indicates otherwise. If marriage solved all of man's sexual problems then why is there a 11-13% incidence of Protestant pastors fornicating outside there marital vows? Where are you statistics about priests abusing nuns? There was an area in Africa where it was a big problem but I know of nothing that says it is rampant. Where is the leap of logic coming from that says it is going on all over. As I recall incidents of child molestation (not pedophillia which is actually very low, .3 percent among priests) is around 2% at most. It is around 7% as I recall in the general population and I am sure much higher in single men than single priests. I have no indication that it is any lower in married men. In fact from what I hear on TV it is higher. You have no evidence that marriage solves the problem. Priests make the news and so you assume and do ameature psychology. Here are some myths about the sex abuse issue:

http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/h ... myths.html

His source, Mr. Jenkins is a Protestant.


Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Cj wrote:

[quote:63d40]Gary wrote:
The role model is not chastity... it is love in the correct relationship before God. That is called marriage.

Yup,.... and it finds its highest peak in the ultimate marriage of the corporate bride to the beloved Son.


In love, [/quote:63d40]


Jesus (Matt 19) and Paul (1 Cor 7) were wrong then. I guess it is better to marry. Everyone should be married and none should be celibate for the kingdom of God, traveling about the glove and evangelizing like Paul did. Begetting spiritual children. Paul was inferior and did not love?

There are even yet plenty of examples of good role models with lasting marriages. Grandparnents and parents who are true to their vows. There are few role models of celibacy among single males in our sex crazed society.

 

[thessalonian]

Someones post who is on my ignore list that I saw before I logged on said 73 % of Catholics favor married priests. Here is his poll.

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/a ... 2_poll.htm

I do believe he said faithful Catholics. I don't see that in the poll. It said 57 % were practicing and 39% lapsed. You can assume that the much higher percentage of lapsed said priests should marry. I don't see where the poll breaks out the lapsed vs. church attending Catholics numbers. Further it says that 60% are against the churches teaching on contraception and a majority favor women priests. I think that sums up the problems among married Catholics. I could care less about opinion polls with regard to moral issues. I don't think Jesus was foolish when he agree with Peter's words "it is better not to marry".

 

[Gary]

2005 Catholic poll: Attitudes of Catholics highly committed to the church

Responses to priest shortages: Married men allowed to be ordained = 75%

Source: (a) - Table - (b) - Report -


... and I wonder who is telling the truth?

Thessalonian (1): Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:45 am "gary is on my ignore list." -here-
Thessalonian (2): Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:17 pm "Someones post who is on my ignore list that I saw before I logged on said 73 % of Catholics favor married priests. Here is his poll...." -here-

:-? :-?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Cj wrote:

[quote:1fd21]Gary wrote:
The role model is not chastity... it is love in the correct relationship before God. That is called marriage.

Yup,.... and it finds its highest peak in the ultimate marriage of the corporate bride to the beloved Son.


In love,

Jesus (Matt 19) and Paul (1 Cor 7) were wrong then. I guess it is better to marry. Everyone should be married and none should be celibate for the kingdom of God, traveling about the glove and evangelizing like Paul did. Begetting spiritual children. Paul was inferior and did not love?

There are even yet plenty of examples of good role models with lasting marriages. Grandparnents and parents who are true to their vows. There are few role models of celibacy among single males in our sex crazed society.[/quote:1fd21]
Man, did you ever hit that nail on the head.

Most of the arguments against Mary's ever-virginity is that people cannot imagine a life without sex. Yet they read Paul....

We in the East have always had a married priesthood, it's part of the Byzantine rite, as I'm sure you know. No if 75% of our people- nah- 95% of our people- felt that it would be better for our priests to be celibate, that would not mean jack squat.

Theology and practice are not decided by vote.

 

[Lewis]

Matt 19
10. The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
11. But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

Who gave the Catholics, the right to proclaim that people should not marry. Can verse 11 be more clear than it is? NO

 

[thessalonian]

Matt 19
10. The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
11. But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

Who gave the Catholics, the right to proclaim that people should not marry. Can verse 11 be more clear than it is? NO

Lewis,

They can marry. They are to discern whether they have a call to celibacy first, of which Christ says "to some this has been given". No one tells them "you have a call to celibacy you can't get married". They discern it for themselves with the help of a spiritual director. Do you have some problem with men discerning whether they do have Christ's call to celibacy? No one tells them they have to become priests. You guys speak without knowing.

So do you not agree with D46 that some do have a call to celibacy and Jesus knows the nature of man better than D46? Was Christ saying that some men are to be called to an unnatural state?
I don't think you guys very often read what your brother Protestants write and think about it critically. You seem to be just looking for a fight with Cathoics.

 

[Gary]

Where Thessalonian's reasoning and logic is wrong is that he (and his RCC) reject men who are:
(a) already married and have a calling to become teaching elders (priests).... or
(b) unmarried men who are already teaching elders (priests) and would like to marry.

Thessalonian and the RCC have decided that these men:
(a) should not become priests as they are already married or
(b) should not marry as they are already priests

No wonder there is a shortage of RCC priests.

.

 

[Gary]

... and where do you find unwed, single males in the UK?



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You guessed it..... in the pub!

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Beer mat ads to recruit priests

The Roman Catholic Church has decided to use beer mats and posters as part of a campaign to recruit more priests....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4590019.stm