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Polygyny and the Bible

I see that you set yourself up as a judge that some sins are greater or less than others. That is not what God say. All sins are equal in the eyes of God. Obiously your view of the bible convieniently suits you and your modern morality.
John 16:11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin." (ESV)

Luke 12:47-48, 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Greater sins require greater punishment and lesser sins lesser punishment. There are numerous examples throughout Scripture on this.

Now, please quit addressing this non-issue and deal with the actual arguments regarding the topic.
 
^ This. And this is what I mean by descriptive versus prescriptive. That the Bible states the way things were, and what God permitted for a time, is not at all the same as God prescribing something. I wish people would understand this.


I do understand the difference.


Exodus 21:10-11

New International Version (NIV)

10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

So God gives a rule about taking a multiple wife. If taking a multiple wife were a sin God would have said don't do it, not give directions on how.


Not only did God describe this as not sinful He actively prescribed the manner in which it is to be done. This is absolutly clear. Polygamy is absolutly not sinful.
 
Re: Alzheimer's & Divorce Condoned by Pat Robertson

1. You may want to read the story about Abraham and Sarah. Hagar was called his wife too (Gen 16:3).

2. Isaac and Rebekah are the only legitimate couple you can list out these three.

3. Even though Jacob was tricked, one should notice that there wasn't a divorce. He understood his responsiblity before God to take care of two wives. He would have sinned by divorcing one.

1. Hagar may have been called his wife, but the point was to show that Abraham and Sarah had peace and harmony within their monogamous relationship before Hagar. Once Hagar entered the picture, there was disharmony and division. Enough so, that Hagar ran away and had to be instructed by an angel of the Lord to return to Abraham and submit to Sarah's mistreatment. Hagar and Ishmael were once again sent away when Sarah caught Ishmael mistreating her son Isaac. At no point in Abraham's short polygamous marriage with Sarah and Hagar was there peaceful unity. Abraham did not take his next wife, Keturah, until after Sarah died.

2. You asked for a legitimite couple, within a monogamous marriage, where peace and harmony reigned. I proved one such couple that meets your standards. Can you now please provide one such couple, where peace and harmony reigned, from the Bible within the polygamous marriage spectrum?

3. No, there was not a divorce. Jacob certainly understood His responsibility, but that's where his devotion ended. His relationship to Leah could be illustrated through the "Check-in-the-Mail" Father. Said father understands and accepts his responsibility, but his devotion to his child ends with that monthly check. When all was said and done, Leah, was the wife whom Jacob did not love. His love and devotion was completely for Rachel. So much so, that the Lord intervened to open Leah's womb so she could provide an abundance of children for Jacob, while Rachel (during that time) did not even give him one. This unequal love from Jacob towards the two sisters, trickled down to the children, with Joseph's brothers being so jealous of the "special, favored" son that it contributed to his being sold into slavery.

There was no sin on Jacob's part, it is true, because he was tricked by his father-in-law. It clearly hurt the Lord's heart (as shown by His action of opening Leah's womb) to see that one of His daughters was loved, while the other was rejected. I'm sure Leah would have preferred to have her own doting and adoring husband, instead of playing second fiddle to her younger sister. Cultural status quo of the OT days was the only reason all 3 of them were forced to deal with an unfavorable circumstance in the first place. These examples add to the notion that polygamy is not the Lord's favored marriage union.

How can you look at the example of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar, as well as, Jacob, Leah, and Rachel and come to the conclusion that polygamy is good? At what point do you see good fruit resulting from these unions?
 
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Scripturally, the issue is not whether polygyny was God's plan A, B, or C. Biblical marriage includes a man having more than one wife.

It most certainly was the case with divorce, leading to the logical conclusion, that God's original and holiest plan for marriage was mirrored in the Garden. Please provide where in the Scripture a polygamous marriage produces fruits of the Spirit, until you can do so, you cannot make the statement that a Biblical marriage includes a man having many wives.

Doing a strong study on "hardness of hearts" and other cognate phrases, i would
suggest that what Christ is saying is that ALL the Law is written because of the
hardness of man's heart. The point being, God introduced the Law because of sin
and the hardness of man's heart (Gal 3:19). The Bible says that the Law is holy,
just, good and perfect. In fact, we are encouraged to love, delight and meditate
on the Law. So, in essence, the Law represents the heart of God for man because
of the fall of man. His original plan included nudity, working in the garden,
etc... but this does not mean we are to walk around nude and only work in
gardens.

So does it then stand to reason that not mixing dairy and meat or different fibers of one's clothing were mandated due to hardness of heart? I cannot agree with your "all" assessment. The Law was also a witness to the Israelites. A constant reminder before their eyes of the Covenant. The Law is our "litmus test" so to speak on holiness and righteousness. One with a soft heart needs the Law, just as much as one with a hard heart.

God's original plan in fact included nudity, and I will stand to reason that "spiritual nudity" (being unashamed before the Lord standing in the righteousness of Christ) is what He has brought us back to via the death of His Son. As far as working in the garden, the issue was not "working only in the garden" but that God gave man stewardship over all of creation. While in the garden, man and beast lived in harmony and man ruled the animals. After the fall, this power was taken away. After redemption in Christ, this power has been restored (Matthew 8:27 + John 14:12). So it stands to reason, that God has come full circle in establishing His original design through Jesus Christ.

Summary: The fall created the hardness of heart, which in essence is a product
of the sinful nature. God regulated what He deemed represented His perfect will
for sinful man. To imply that God regulated polygyny merely to appear man's
rebellion is really an attack on God's holiness. God could have forbidden it
just as easy as he forbid homosexuality, bestuality, etc... God placed in the
Law exactly what He desired to regulated all aspects of man's relationships with
Himself and others because of man's sinful nature represented by man's perpetual
hardness of heart!

I would venture to say that there could not have been a fall without there being a hardness of heart to begin with. Only hardness of heart, could lead one to doubt God's goodness, thereby breaking His command and partaking from the forbidden tree. (But this is another theological discussion).

God seems to infact "put up with" polygamy in the OT in the same manner He "put up with" divorce, oppression of women, and slavery. Aside from divorce which was dealt with during Christ's ministry, after His death (for the most part) we have seen the abolishment of slavery and abolishment of inequality between the sexes (with a limited number still clinging to these sinful thought patterns with all their might).

The purpose of Mosaic Law was to "make straight the path of the Lord" so that He could usher in His original "Plan A" of redemption of sin through His Son, Christ the Lord (Revelation 13:8). So, to state that God regulated polygamy to keep man's lust in check, is not an attack on His Holiness, but an affirmation of His Goodness. In His love and mercy for His stiff-necked and rebellious creation, He slowly chipped away at the callousness of their hearts with Mosaic Law so that He could one day introduce the full revelation of His Law, personified through Christ the Lord.

Further, I have not once condemned the practice of polygamy found within OT Scripture. I have simply stated that we have moved away from polygamy because it is not God's original plan for marriage. Allowed temporarily? Yes. However, we are not OT Israelites living under the Law of Moses. We are NT Christians living in Christ. The Lord gave very clear instructions on what a Biblical marriage truly looks like, and no where do those instructions include a plurality of spouses.

The truth of the matter is this, the full revelation concerning the Biblical
doctrine of marriage was not contained in the creation story. There is no
compelling need for God to have had Adam created with more than one wife any
more than him being created with clothes. This is a logical fallacy. If this
argument were true, it would be able to be consistent with that too. For
example, one could say, "God could have easily given man clothes when he created
him. It wasn't until the fall of man came that clothes was introduced." Does
this mean that having clothes is wrong - absurd!


The full revelation of marriage was most certainly expressed within the creation account. Christ's own words ("It was not so from the Beginning" Matthew 19:8) give clear indication of this. There is most certainly a compelling need for God to have given Adam multiple wives! The Lord needed the only two humans in existence to populate the earth. I can not think of a better time or reason then this for the need of a polygamous marriage! Adam and Eve did not need clothes because there was no shame. My point is not a logical fallacy, you are simply twisting it to appear as such. Why would God need to have created man with clothes? There was no shame before the fall. The introduction of clothes was only because Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness. Your own misrepresentation of my argument is what is truly absurd. So, it does in fact go to show that God's Holy plan for marriage was monogamy, and man's sinful plan for marriage is polygamy.

This is mere unscriptural speculation, and an attack on the character of God.
Scripture shows that He regulated polygyny in his just, holy, pure, and perfect
Law. We know that God is love. Therefore, an attack on His Law is an attack on
His character. Moreover, the fact is, God used Himself, by analogy, in two
separate cases as an example of a polygynous practioner (Ezekiel 23; Jeremiah
3). In my opinion, this sounds more like humanism.

It is not "mere unscriptural speculation" and in no way an attack on the character of my Holy, Precious God. What you have done is taken my words out of context and then taken it upon yourself to insult me in the process. I stated that eddy's attitude of "owning women like they are possessions" is not a Godly attitude. My Holy and Precious God, does not and would never have such a demeaning attitude toward His beloved daughters. That I can guarantee you is Scripturally sound.

Simply because God used an analogy about polygamy to describe His judgements and relationship with the Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel does not speak on His affirmation of polygamy; anymore then, His analogies of describing femiminity to Himself makes Him a female.

Interesting! I would say that a loving man would always lead His bride toward
the purposes of God, which may mean being a missionary to a tribe that brings
great hardship to his family; or it may mean adopting many mentally ill children
that brings great hardship to his family; or similar things. Does this mean that
the husband doesn't love his wife and is still not willing to die for his
family. Moreover, the husband is the head, that is, the controller of his
household. Controlling his household IS part of loving his family!!

The point of missionary work or adopting children does not add to this discussion. A Christian couple work together when serving the Lord. His wife would be just as responsible to follow through with a missionary calling as her husband is. She answers to the Lord for her life, not to her husband.

The husband is the head, but any Christian knows that our own "control" in this world is merely smoke and mirrors. It's an illusion we allow ourselves to buy into, when the truth of the matter is control belongs to the Lord alone.

A Godly man will not beat his unruly, out of control child into paralysis to show him "who's in control." A Godly man will fall on his hands and knees and plant his face on the floor in prayer before the Lord to seek help dealing with his unruly, out of control child. A Godly man will put his own "ego, pride, flesh" to death whether He is right or wrong when it comes to dealing with his wife, following in the example of the true Master of his household. Christ was in the right, but He died for His beloved, regardless. Truth be told, husbands have it much harder then wives do in terms of marriage. It's much easier to submit, while grinding your teeth and feigning a holy heart attitude, then it is to love one unto death. That cannot be faked, and is probably the reason many men have such unholy thinking about what it means to love their wives.


If this were understood like you are trying to present it, it would mean that a Bible believing woman would not have very much pain, if any, in child bearing. It pains me that there are teachings that are more centered in secular humanism than the purity of God's Holy Word. It really does greive my heart! Man was born to glorify God by serving Him, extending His kingdom, using His Word as our final authority for all we say and do. It matters not if we personally agree with it!

Respectfully

Adelphos

A Bible believing woman in the first world does indeed have very nominal pain during her delivery. What a testament to the love of God! What a witness to the redemption of the curse of sin we have in Christ! Only after His death and resurrection is it possible for a woman to feel virtually no pain from child birth. No OT woman can say this same thing.

Further, man was not born to glorify or serve God. These are fruits that come from knowing the Holy of Holies. One who knows the goodness of God finds it irresistible to keep from glorifying or serving Him. The Lord had angeles who glorified and served Him before the creation of man. The Lord does not need our glory or servitude. He is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being. Man was made to be in relationship with God. This is mankind's truest and holiest purpose.
 
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I don't see how polygyny can possibly be a good situation for a Christian. The union of one man and one woman is supposed to be an exclusive, lifelong relationship.

Scripture does not affirm that only a union between one man and one woman is to be exclusive. This is a doctrine of man. There is no such teaching! It is like the false doctrine that teaches that a wedding is supposed to be performed by an Elder/Pastor/Rabbi, etc... It simply does not exist!

God does allow for divorce in cases of adultery and abandonment by an unbeliever, but we're told "God hates divorce" (somewhere in Malachi, I think). I think the reason the OT has polygyny is the same reason the OT had liberal divorce laws (for men, anyway): hardness of men's hearts.

The entire Law was written because of the hardness of the heart of men! God made man perfect. Yet, the Bible declares that the Law of the Lord is perfect. In what sense - it expressed the will of God for hard hearted people!

Its progressive revelation at its finest. First God gives basic rules about marriage to keep brothers from marrying sisters and to make sure divorce didn't completely ruin women. Then He, through Our Lord, shows us the *real* ideal for marriage (one man, one woman, mutual submission, submission to the Lord) once the world is (kind of) ready for God to come to earth and show and tell us how to live.

I am sorry, but the progressive revelation includes the Law, except where the New Covenant explicitly declares otherwise. For example, the Old Covenant supports the usage of musical instruments. There is no mention of musical instruments in the New Testament. Does this mean that progressive revelation is that God doesn't like musical instruments? God forbid such reasoning!

Polygyny results in women being treated like chattel.

Interesting. This is the same argument I have heard from unbelievers who disagree with male headship taught in Ephesians and 1 Corinthians.

The fact of the matter is that even if that were the case, Scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith, not personal opinion.

Oh, wife #1 is barren? Get a new one, or two new ones! Hitting a mid-life crisis? Add in a couple 19 year old wives! It'll be awesome! The Christian marriage model does much to protect women and to give me much-needed exclusive love and companionship.

The Christian marriage model includes polygyny, for God's Word is the final authority for Bible believing Christians.

Respectfully

Adelphos
 
Just about the time i think the church is making progress unto His kingdom. :shame Then i find a bunch of lustful men wanting to have their selfish sin justified.

Say what every ya want i read the reaches of islam and satan here.

Out of here bye

Hello

I am unsure how to take this one. Kingdom, as you well know, comes from two words, King and Domain. So, what expresses the Kings domain. His Word. Therefore, if we as believers are extending the Kings Domain, or His Kingdom, we desire to express His Word, even if it is contrary to personal upbringing.

One can turn it into a "lust" argument I suppose, but the reality is all seeking of marriage partners have a lust component to it. In fact, Scripture exhorts us to marry instead of burn with passion/lust - interesting!

None the less, it is easy to accuse people that believe in polygyny as justifying sinful behavior, but since Scripture defines sin, then really, what is being justified is traditions of men.

1 John 3:4 says,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the
transgression of the law.

The question I pose for those reading this - exactly what Law does polygyny transgress?

This issue is more about the authority of Scripture than it is about polygyny, in my opinion.

Respectfully,

Adelphos
 
A couple of points to be made here. First, it is very important to note what I highlighted in verse 8. In Scripture God permitted things due to mens evil hearts even though it was not his plan or intention.

A few things should also be noted. One, Jesus still permitted divorce, so obviously He still believes man has a hard heart. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of Scripture to suggest that the Bible teaching on "hardness of heart" only applies to this Law. It applies to the entire Law. In other words, the reason the Law came, according the Scripture, was because of sin, the acting out of hard hearted humans (Gal 3:19).

It was certainly the heart of God that man remain pure, naked, and in work as a gardener, but I see that no one is advocating all of that. Progressive revelation concerning man is that he would be allowed to marry more wives than one, he would wear clothes, and he would be allowed to work in other industries besides gardening.

[qutoe]This is the case with polygyny and precisely why God could call David a man after his own heart despite his many wives and concubines. Not mention that argument fails since David also had a man murdered, unless one wants to argue that God permits murder. Hey, Moses did it too, after all. :yes[/quote]

Well, Scripture says more than David was a man after God's own heart:

1 Kings 15:5: Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

So, no the argument does not stand, for God condemed David for his sin. It should be clearly noted that God didn't address any sin of polygyny. Why?

Second, it cannot be any more clear than this: if divorcing and remarrying can result in adultery, then marrying more than one woman or being married and having sex with another woman is also adultery. The only ways out of this are to argue that adultery is not sin or that Jesus was wrong.

This is rather illogical. It also assumes that the definition of adultery includes a man having more than one wife. This is simply not the case!

This really should be the end of this discussion, but I somehow know that it won't be. :shame

This last sentence is quite interesting. Try to read what you wrote in the last sentence objectively. If I wrote that, what would you think?

Blessings

Adelphos
 
I gotta agree with you Reba. I hadn't read this thread until now but I can't believe that there are THREE that are attempting to make polygyny scriptural. :shrug There's always one, but three???

Westtexas

There is not attempt here - it has never been anti-Scriptural. Yet, historically, we know that when someone is shares the Word against known status quo, they are always persecuted... Martin Luther for example!
 
One thing I'd like to say is that I hope we don't see a whole lot of this idea that somehow liberalism, sexism or feminism is at the heart of the debate here.

It isn't.

Handy, I totally agree with this and appreciate your heart.

From my perspective, I don't really think it is about polygyny. I believe it is about the authority of Scripture. Polygyny is the catalist!

What is being debated is what God's word actually teaches about polygyny, whether it was something that men just did, or whether God Himself instituted it, blessed it and promoted it.

Clearly men took on more than one wife in the OT. To my knowledge, there is no mention of any of God's people having more than one wife in the New Testament. If anyone can point to an example of any believer in Christ having more than one wife, by all means do so.

There are no direct references to my knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is forbidden. For example, the New Testament doesn't mention musical instruments nor tithing.

One man put it this way:

1_Corinthians 5:1:
a son had fornicated with his "father's wife".

This does NOT refer to the man's mother. Indeed, the term, "father's wife",
is a very specific term.

Leviticus 18:8 refers to "father's wife" as specifically separate from
"mother" in the previous verse of Leviticus 18:7. Note that the "nakedness" of
a "mother" is referred to as her own "nakedness" while the "nakedness" of a
"father's wife" is referred to as the FATHER's "nakedness".

This same differentiation is observed again in Deuteronomy 27:20,16.

In fact, what the fornicator had done as per 1_Corinthians 5:1 was the same
sin as that of Jacob/Israel's firstborn son. Reuben had committed the identical
sin with Jacob/Israel's wife, Bilhah, in Genesis 35:22. (Yes, Bilhah was
Jacob's wife; see Genesis 37:2.) And for Reuben's act of "uncovering his
father's nakedness" by fornicating with his "father's wife", Bilhah, Reuben
lost his birthright as firstborn. 1_Chronicles 5:1 reveals that this was
because Reuben had "defiled his father's bed".

Indeed, the reference to "father's wife" in 1_Corinthians 5:1 does reveal an
actual polygamist identified in the New Testament, i.e., the father of the
mentioned fornicator.

("Exegesis: A New Testament Polygamist" BiblicalPolygamy.com)

What the real question is then, isn't whether or not OT men took on more wives...but whether or not this was something that God Himself instituted and blessed.

I believe the question is even more fundamental. Does God approve! If He didn't approve, why did He, as a Holy example, use Himself (by analogy) to represent a polygynous man (Ezekiel 23; Jeremiah 3)

Respectfully

Adelphos
 
Hello Handy

Now then, to what the Bible actually teaches about this subject...


I love your heart for research. Blessings

I'd like to approach this in two ways:
One, to discuss those texts that seem to support God's sanctioning of polygynyto see if they truly do.

Two, to examine what the texts that are clearly from God say specifically aboutmarriage...is it between one man and one woman, or does God Himself ever statethat marriage to more than one woman is fine with him.

Both are important. It's not enough to just say, "Well, the Bible doesn'tsay that" without including what the Bible does say about this subject.

Ok, my responsewill need to be spread out in a few posts - this is very long.

Respectfully

Adelphos
 

Regardingthose texts that seem to say polygyny is approved by God:

Adelphos, you said in regards to 2 Samuel 12:8:

1. They were wives of Saul that were given to David, and because the context ofthe passage was about David's desire for another woman, it is quite obviousthat God wasn't mentioning other wives as a casual statement. It had directapplication to the issue of David's sin. If not, this Scripture is totally outof place!

2. Therefore, it is still a "go to" Scripture to demonstrate theheart of God in the matter - in regards to marriage, one may have more than onewife.

I've gone over this, but am willing to continue to unpack this text since Iknow it is one of the most compelling texts that pro-polygyny people use.

The context of the text is when Nathan confronts David with his sin withBathsheba.

Here's the text:
2 Samuel 12
7 Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God ofIsrael, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who deliveredyou from the hand of Saul.
8 I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care,and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been toolittle, I would have added to you many more things like these!
9 Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? Youhave struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to beyour wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because youhave despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’
11 Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your ownhousehold; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them toyour companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, andunder the sun.’â€
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.†And Nathan saidto David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.
14 However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of theLORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.â€


It's verse 8, andnot even the whole verse, just a phrase within a sentence, that is being putforth as being the "proof" that God Himself gives men more than onewife.

I don't think it says that at all.


I look forward toseeing what you have to share.

Respectfully


Adelphos
 
There is historical evidence that the Pharisees practiced polygny on a minor scale, and we know that many Pharisess came to the faith. It is not unreasonable to deduct that some of them were polygynists. However, there is no direct evidence - although Dr. Adams who was the found of Nouthetic counseling wrote in one of his books that there were absolutely Christian polygnists in the New Testament Church. I don't know where he got that evidence.
So is there "evidence" of this, or are you going to hang your hat on "It's not unreasonable to deduce it."? If it's the former, it would be helpful for you to share this "evidence". If it's the latter, you're making an assumption that's not biblically based.

Show me where you can demonstrate anything that says "God approves" of polygamy besides your few O.T. scriptures that only speak to it being practiced. Show me where scripture indicates that those who sat at Jesus' Feet would have concluded that this was the model for marriage.

I suggest you have bought into an unscriptural premise which is promoted by a few fringe separatists. It won't be hard to find certain people who will twist scripture to mean anything they want it to. If you look to the lives of those who knew Christ, who walked with Him, who began His Church and carried the torch, you won't find this practiced. There will always be false teachers, book writers and promoters of unholy practices, and sadly, there will always be people who glob on to them.
:shame
 
So is there "evidence" of this, or are you going to hang your hat on "It's not unreasonable to deduce it."? If it's the former, it would be helpful for you to share this "evidence". If it's the latter, you're making an assumption that's not biblically based.

Show me where you can demonstrate anything that says "God approves" of polygamy besides your few O.T. scriptures that only speak to it being practiced. Show me where scripture indicates that those who sat at Jesus' Feet would have concluded that this was the model for marriage.

I suggest you have bought into an unscriptural premise which is promoted by a few fringe separatists. It won't be hard to find certain people who will twist scripture to mean anything they want it to. If you look to the lives of those who knew Christ, who walked with Him, who began His Church and carried the torch, you won't find this practiced. There will always be false teachers, book writers and promoters of unholy practices, and sadly, there will always be people who glob on to them.
:shame

I wonder, Mike, and hope you can help me out as a son of Adam. Why would any man desire a polygamous marriage? :chin
 
I wonder, Mike, and hope you can help me out as a son of Adam. Why would any man desire a polygamous marriage? :chin

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but the reasons a man would desire a plygamous marriage include. Being in love. To have children, to protect a woman who would otherwise be alone. There are many reasons. The same reasons God condoned it in the bible.
 
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but the reasons a man would desire a plygamous marriage include. Being in love. To have children, to protect a woman who would otherwise be alone. There are many reasons. The same reasons God condoned it in the bible.

Love. Was Abraham in love with Hagar? Was Jacob in love with Leah? Was David in love with the wives of Saul?

Children. God closed Sarah's womb so that through her temporary misfortune, she would be used to demonstrate His power. It was only when Sarah and Abraham took it upon themselves to have children that the results were disastrous; leaving us with the consequences of their sin to this present day. If God sees it fit to not allow one to father children, why does one circumvent His will be adding spouses?

Protecting a women who would otherwise be alone. How many old, frail, and senile women do young men who favor polygamy marry? They are the women who need protectors and financial stability the most.

On the contrary, I've seen you advocate that if your wife has alzheimer's disease, that you should take on another wife. For what purpose? So you won't have to be the one to care of her? Or do you need someone to care for you? I see alot of selfishness here, eddy.

None, of these reasons seem to hold any weight here, eddy? But, the heart of why men desire polygamous marriages seems to be getting more and more exposed as we move on in this disccusion.
 
I wonder, Mike, and hope you can help me out as a son of Adam. Why would any man desire a polygamous marriage? :chin
I'm afraid to get inside the mind of someone who would want it. :shocked!

More seriously, I believe God has placed in our hearts the desire for one woman to love and adore, to give our heart to. It is the one who defies this God-Given desire, who is defiant and forces the unnatural tendency and "convinces" himself that he wants it.

For the most part, I believe as I said that there will always be people who hear something amazing that "bucks the establishment". In this case, it's God's establishment of marriage. There's an indignant opposition that becomes a certain "war" on those who they see as standing in the way of their banner issue. Their backs are against the wall, and pride becomes more important than Truth. So the defiance becomes more important than the matter itself.

Cults spring up all the time that share this rejection of orthodox Christianity, and the more concerned people try to reason with them, the more they hunker down and dig their heels in. It is a hill they refuse to give up, and they surround themselves with like-thinkers who affirm their defiance.
 
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but the reasons a man would desire a plygamous marriage include. Being in love. To have children, to protect a woman who would otherwise be alone. There are many reasons. The same reasons God condoned it in the bible.

Let's up the ante here eddy. Why does a man want a concubine?

eddy said:
God gifts men wives and concubines. That in and of its self shows it isn't a sin. The fact that concubines were ok shows that if not just wives that men may have relations with multiple women. Women are to submit.

Concubine definition.

1. a woman who cohabits with a man to whom she is not legally married, especially one regarded as socially or sexually subservient; mistress.

2. (among polygamous peoples) a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank.

3. (especially formerly in Muslim societies) a woman residing in a harem and kept, as by a sultan, for sexual purposes.
 
I think the only way you can push to bring back polygyny is if you use the Bible to promote the idea that women are somehow less human than men. There are no bigamous family set ups in the NT, and the OT, as other posters have pointed out, the polygynous units were decidedly less-than-perfect. Hardly a convincing argument for men to have multiple wives.

The foreign wives of Solomon led him astray from the one true God. The adultery and lust of David caused incredible suffering. Its also worth noting that the bigamous unions involved men of high status in special situations. Foreign wives were used to seal alliances with (potential) allies among the ruling class. Hagar came on to the scene because Abraham and Sara lost patience with God (and look how that one turned out). Jacob didn't even set out to have multiple wives; he ended up with a 2-for-1 deal in a society in which women were seen as burdens to their families and married off ASAP.

Arguing for Christian polygyny not only ignores Jesus' message on marriage, it ignores Paul's message on sexual purity and Christian conduct and well over 1,900 years of Christian tradition. We're told in the NT that God allowed divorce b/c of the "hardness of men's hearts," but Jesus told us what God *really* thought, now that humanity could (kind of) accept the Truth. Similarly, the OT (and pagan) views of women as expendable and inherently inferior to men had to give way to what was at the time (and apparently still is, judging by some comments on this topic) a radical notion: that men and women are different, yes, but there's a certain amount of equality before God.

All people--Greek, Jew, slave, male, female--have equal worth and dignity before God. Yes, Christian marriage calls for wifely submission, but that's supposed to play out in a God-fearing manner of mutual submission to God, done in such a way that the dignity and humanity of both husband and wife are protected and the marriage itself is strengthened.

Honestly, that we're even having this discussion absolutely boggles my mind. Christian sexual morality has been clear from the get-go, and its always been at odds with the surrounding culture: 1 man, 1 woman, 1 marriage--or celibacy. That's it.
 
Hi Handy,

What does Nathan actually say from the Lord here? Let's read it again:
‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered youfrom the hand of Saul. I also gave you your master’s house and your master’swives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if thathad been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!

For me to believe that God is sanctioning polygyny in this, it wouldhave to say something along the line of "It is I who gave you manywives"...

But it doesn't say that...not at all.

God is pointing out to David just how much that He had blessed him. Heappointed David to King over Israel, He delivered David when Saul was out tokill him, turning it instead to be that David would receive all that wasSaul's...Saul's household, including Saul's wives, were put into David's care.Not only that, God made David king, not just over Israel, but over Judah aswell. Saul's son was king over Judah after the fallout, but God took that kingdomand delivered it to David. God then points out to David, after proclaiming howHe placed David as king over not one but two kingdoms and had delivered allthat was Saul's to him, that if that hadn't been enough, God would have givenhim even more.

Somehow, all of this seems to get ignored or glossed over, or just notconsidered and the pro-polygyny types just zero in on two things out of thepassage, making it read something like this:

It isI who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the handof Saul. Ialso gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care,and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I wouldhave added to you many morethings like these!

I wanted that visual in there because hopefully this can give clarity to justhow weak an argument is for using 2 Samuel 12:8 as some kind of proof text thatGod promotes or even condones polygyny.

The argument that this text teaches God's condoning of polygyny should be completelydestroyed by considering this:

There is no way, no how that God gave David Saul's wives as wives! The reasonbeing that David was married to one of Saul's daughters. This would cause Davidto be married to both a mother and daughter, something that was expresslyforbidden by God. One cannot make the case that God gave David all of Saul'swives except the mother of his wife, because the text says no such thing.

The only thing this text states is that Saul's wives were turned over to David.Their fate was in his hands. He could have locked them away for the rest oftheir lives, he could have made slaves out of them...what he actually did wasturn their care over to Jonathan's son, turning them back over to the last ofSaul's line.

Surely Adelphos, you can see that this text in no way supports the idea thatGod sanctions polygyny...there is just no support for that point of view withinthe text.

Going back to this:

1. They were wives of Saul that were given to David, and because the context ofthe passage was about David's desire for another woman, it is quite obviousthat God wasn't mentioning other wives as a casual statement. It had directapplication to the issue of David's sin. If not, this Scripture is totally outof place!

Not at all!!!

First, I would disagree that the context is specifically about David's desirefor another woman as much as it is that David took what was not his to take,after God had so richly blessed him. Think about Nathan's parable about therich man who had much who stole the poor man's ewe. The direct application toDavid's sin was that God had blessed David immeasurably and David killedanother man to cover his adulterous affair with his wife. If the verse waswritten the way I wrote it in my graphic, perhaps your interpretation of itwould be correct. But, if all God wanted to point out to David was, "Hey,I gave you plenty of wives and would have given you more"...then He wouldhave said that. Hopefully, you can see that isn't what God was saying.

I'm sorry Adelphos, this text does not teach us that God gave David Saul'swives as wives...God gave them to David as part of a complete transfer of powerfrom Saul to David. David in no way took these women as wives and would havecertainly condemned himself, Michel and Ahinoam to death had he done so.

ok, since you are working hard to press your position, allow me to press mine a little more as well.

First of all, I would suggest a more literal reading of the text:


And Nathan said to David, You are the man! So says Jehovah, the God of
Israel, I anointed you as king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand
of Saul. And I gave you the house of your master, and your master's wives into
your bosom. And I gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if that were
too little, then I would have added to you these and those things.

2 Samuel 12:7-8 LITV


or

And Nathan saith unto David, `Thou art the man! Thus said Jehovah, God of
Israel, I anointed thee for king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the
hand of Saul; and I give to thee the house of thy lord, and the wives of thy
lord, into thy bosom, and I give to thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and
if little, then I add to thee such and such things .

2 Samuel 12:7-8 YLT

The problem with the version you are using is that it is "interpreting" a specific phrase that would be better if translated. Your versions says, "I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care." The more literal reading from the Hebrew is "into thy bosom." Why does this matter - accuracy, plain and simple.

You see, the phrase "into thy bosom" is the Hebrew "euphemism for sexual relations." ("Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament" by Kittel) It is used this way, for example in Genesis 16:5:

And Sarai saith unto Abram, `My violence is for thee; I--I have given mine handmaid into thy bosom, and she seeth that she hath conceived, and I am lightly esteemed in her eyes; Jehovah doth judge between me and thee.'

This means that God had given David Saul's wives for, literally, sexual relationships/marriage. It implies that these women were under David's total disposal - he could marry, or do with what he likes. However, do not be deceived. It is a clear Hebrew euphemism for sex/marriage!

As one commentator rightly observes:

"These words refer to the fact that, according to the general custom in the East, when a king died, his successor upon the throne also succeeded to his harem, so that David was at liberty to take his predecessor's wives." (Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament)

This, btw, is exactly what I have been saying all along. Thus, God Himself declared that He had given "into [his] bosom" Saul's wives for wives, etc...

A side note of interest: According to John Gill's Commentary the Jews say, "that Eglah, David's sixth wife, was the wife of Saul."

Respectfully,

Adelphos









 
God Does Not Condone Polygny - Period!

Sorry for another thread on this topic, but the authority of Scripture is at stake:

I believe that it is important to make this as clear and as accurate as possible. As you will see, God doesn’t “condone†the practice of plural marriage. Instead, He approves of plural marriage throughout the Bible!

Using Dictionary.com's definition of “condone," let us examine the idea in light of Scripture:

To disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like):

God does not consider polygyny, illegal or objectionable. If this were the case, He would not have regulated it in the Law (Exodus 21:10; Deuteronomy 25:15), which is holy, just and good (Romans 7:12), and perfect (Psalm 12:4), nor would He have used Himself metaphorically as a practicing polygynist (Ezekiel 23:1-5,7,11; Jeremiah 3:1-14)! That would be extremely hypocritical! All He would have had to do was say if He did not want it to be practiced was; “to have more than one wife is not acceptableâ€! However, He did not do this!!!

God does not disregard or overlook the sin of His people. This would be like saying that God automatically forgives the unrepentant when they violate the Moral Law. After all, according to those who teach that polygyny is sin, polygynists are adulterers (Massey, n.d.)! Is this orthodox theology? What does this argument do to the atonement? This would make the cross of Christ meaningless! Hebrews 9:22 states quite clearly that “without shedding of blood is no remission†of sin.

To give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior:


God actually gave more than tacit approval to polygyny. That is, He was not silent on the subject as some suggest. As already stated, He regulated it in His Law. In fact, not only did He regulate it, He made it so that in some cases men were forced to practice polygyny – the Levirate Law: Deut. 25:5-10!

God’s silence against His people doesn’t give “tacit approvalâ€, for there was no need for God to speak against a practice that He regulated in His own Law. His approval was already given. The silence of God merely confirmed it!

To pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.

There isn’t any passage where God informed His people that they needed pardon or forgiveness for practicing polygyny. Why? Pardon or forgiveness was never necessary for practicing polygyny.

To cause the condonation of:

The actions of practicing polygynists did not require condonation, for it is never mentioned as a sin – anywhere!

To forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow):

There was never a need for God to forgive an action that He made provision for in His Law. So, in reality, based upon the primary definition of “condoneâ€, God does not condone, that is, overlook sin. The truth is quite simple, really. God does not condone polygamy – period!

(Massey – Retrieved on August 26, 2008 at What does the Bible say about Polygamy?)

Respectfully

Adelphos
 
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