Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[NJBeliever]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model. This model asserts that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation or "Great Tribulation" aka Daniel's 70th week. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


the "Gathering of Matthew 24"


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly. We are literally “caught up†and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven. Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air. Again, we are not meeting angels. We are meeting Jesus. What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.


So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites. And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:


Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:

Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

So is there no mention of the rapture here? If anything it is in the “sign of the Son of Man†and the mourning of the nations. Those are references to a rapture that is pre-Great Tribulation. But that will be addressed in another thread.

 

[Cyberseeker]

"... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other."

... So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites.

One question for you NJ. When the angels gather the Jews/Israelites, will their feet leave the ground?

 

[NJBeliever]

One question for you NJ. When the angels gather the Jews/Israelites, will their feet leave the ground?

It doesn't say, but that would not be surprising at it has happened in the Bible before (see Philip, Ezekiel, etc.)

 

[Cyberseeker]

No, it doesn't say explicitly, but what it does say is that they will be gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." So, they are not all coming by foot, camel, bus or train are they? It doesn't require much imagination to realise this gathering involves supernatural transport.

Would you agree?

 

[NJBeliever]

No, it doesn't say explicitly, but what it does say is that they will be gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." So, they are not all coming by foot, camel, bus or train are they? It doesn't require much imagination to realise this gathering involves supernatural transport.

Would you agree?

Yes, to a degree. IMO The more compelling part of the verse is that angels will do the gathering. So that seems to imply supernatural aspects of the gathering.

 

[Asyncritus]

[...]

So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites...

Mt 25. 31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

???

 

[Cyberseeker]

Yes, to a degree. IMO The more compelling part of the verse is that angels will do the gathering. So that seems to imply supernatural aspects of the gathering.

Yes, I agree. So the Jewish gathering (Matt24) and the Christian rapture gathering (1Thess4) both involve getting supernaturally lifted off the ground and transported somewhere. These two 'gatherings' are sounding rather similar. Im tempted to think they are both the same event after all? Or do you think there might be 2 raptures?

 

[NJBeliever]

Yes, I agree. So the Jewish gathering (Matt24) and the Christian rapture gathering (1Thess4) both involve getting supernaturally lifted off the ground and transported somewhere. These two 'gatherings' are sounding rather similar. Im tempted to think they are both the same event after all? Or do you think there might be 2 raptures?

very, very important rule that you should remember: similarity does not equal sameness. This is the cause of a ton of biblical error when it comes to reading Bible prophecy.

As I mentioned before Philip was supernaturally transported. Ezekiel flew all over the place. Were they raptured??? By your logic you would emphatically say yes. They were lifted off their feet and it was supernatural. But Scripture says otherwise. Angels are not going to raise the dead, translate their bodies and catch them up to the clouds. Jesus Himself will. And then living Christians go next, to meet Him in the clouds. The verse is so clear. Thd Matthew gathering is done by angels who are sent by Jesus with no mention of any meeting in the clouds. 2 different events.

 

[David505]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model.

Thanks NJBeliever,

What's your Rapture position (just curious)?

 

[Vic C.]

Does the "elect" in the Bible ever refer to anyone but Christians?

I actually feel this question is worthy of it's own topic so we all may dig deeper. It already looks as though people have varying opinions on whether the answer is Yes or No.

So, I have moved all related posts off into a new thread. :yes

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/who-elect-bible-what-elects-relation-end-times-33159/

 

[Asyncritus]

Mt 25. 31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

???

Hey NJ

What say you about the above?

 

[NJBeliever]

Hey NJ

What say you about the above?

The Judgment of Nations is the Judgment time during which Jesus will judge all peoples of the world alive at the time of His Second Coming for entrance into His Millenial Kingdom. This is after Armageddon (which results in the killing of the Beast, False Prophet, the imprisonment of Satan and the killing of THEIR ARMIES). Jesus does not kill every non-believer on the planet at the time of His return. But all nations will be gathered to be judged on whether or not they will enter the Millenial Kingdom.

Joel 3: 1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2I will also gather all NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Judah and Jersualem are "captive" at the Millenium. This is when physical Israel will be occupied by Messianic Jews, with Jesus sitting on the throne of David. Jesus will judge the Gentile peoples of the world based on their treatment of "His brethren" meaning Israel (oh and for the record the name Jehoshaphat means "Jehovah judges"). And notice the basis of the judgment: Israel. The Great Tribulation will be a very different time for people who are alive. The Gospel of the KINGDOM is preached but at the end of the day it is still faith and grace that saves. So people's eternal destiny is already determined but they must still face judgment on Israel. Just continue reading Matthew 25 and He explains it all.

The sheep who listened to the Gospel of the Kingdom and did not persecute Israel will enter the Kingdom, the goats who rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom, will enter damnation. This time of judgment will presumably last for 75 days since Daniel 12:11-12 clearly lists an extra period of time at the end of this world and those who persevere to Day 1335 are especially blessed (but that point is debatable I suppose).

I'm sure to many this will sound crazy but it's only because it's something that is not taught often. But there are many passages that discuss the Millenial Kingdom, which The Lord God promised to David. There are several judgments at the end time. And the Judgment of the Nations (aka Sheep/Goat) is just one of them.

 

[Scotth1960]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model. This model asserts that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation or "Great Tribulation" aka Daniel's 70th week. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


the "Gathering of Matthew 24"


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly. We are literally “caught up†and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven. Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air. Again, we are not meeting angels. We are meeting Jesus. What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.


So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites. And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:


Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:

Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

So is there no mention of the rapture here? If anything it is in the “sign of the Son of Man†and the mourning of the nations. Those are references to a rapture that is pre-Great Tribulation. But that will be addressed in another thread.

Friend, That Judaizing tendency of some believers has already been well-refuted by Saint John Chrysostom and other Church Fathers. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Romans 11 says Israel will be saved by Christ. Coming to Christ is what is required of the Jews, and many Jews do not do that yet. So there is no more special place for Jews than for Gentiles as God is no respecter of persons. But God loves Israel, the Jewish people. God loves all people equally that is all, not Israel above the other nations. He loves the elect who believe in Christ. Those who believe in Christ are the elect. Not "the Jews".
In Erie Scott Harrington
:nod

 

[jasoncran]

Friend, That Judaizing tendency of some believers has already been well-refuted by Saint John Chrysostom and other Church Fathers. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Romans 11 says Israel will be saved by Christ. Coming to Christ is what is required of the Jews, and many Jews do not do that yet. So there is no more special place for Jews than for Gentiles as God is no respecter of persons. But God loves Israel, the Jewish people. God loves all people equally that is all, not Israel above the other nations. He loves the elect who believe in Christ. Those who believe in Christ are the elect. Not "the Jews".
In Erie Scott Harrington
:nod

we pre-tribbers know that but the bible says the jews will be come to christ and they will be from tribes.

they will believe as we do.

and you are also in err in this
our faith is most jewish.

romans 2:28.

we dont call ourselves jews but read up what Paul means by that.

 

[Scotth1960]

we pre-tribbers know that but the bible says the jews will be come to christ and they will be from tribes.

they will believe as we do.

and you are also in err in this
our faith is most jewish.

romans 2:28.

we dont call ourselves jews but read up what Paul means by that.

The Bible emphasizes the "Israel of God" The Church, not OT Israel. OT Israel has passed into history. The Jews are still here by God's grace, but His grace means for them to come into the Israel of God, the Church. This is God's plan for all people. There shall be One Shepherd, Jesus Christ, and One Body, the Church of God.

 

[jasoncran]

The Bible emphasizes the "Israel of God" The Church, not OT Israel. OT Israel has passed into history. The Jews are still here by God's grace, but His grace means for them to come into the Israel of God, the Church. This is God's plan for all people. There shall be One Shepherd, Jesus Christ, and One Body, the Church of God.

acts 1:6,7 kjv

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


what a dumb question to the lord if that is the truth, surely then and there he would have corrected them but look at the following verses

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

so why would leave them hanging if they were so far off?

 

[Sam21]

Just trying to see if this goes though. We live in an amazing time of great bible study and great deception concerning the return of Christ. Jesus said that He would return AFTER the tribulation and gather the apostles and he commanded the apostles to teach what he taught them to the church, so Jesus said that his return after the tribulation was for the church.
Also, Paul told the Thess that the return of Christ to gather the church could not occur until AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, a thing that happens in the tribulation period. The Tribulation Jesus described is not the wrath of God but a time of great persecution against the church and Israel.

 

[Hitch]

Just trying to see if this goes though. We live in an amazing time of great bible study and great deception concerning the return of Christ. Jesus said that He would return AFTER the tribulation and gather the apostles and he commanded the apostles to teach what he taught them to the church, so Jesus said that his return after the tribulation was for the church.
Also, Paul told the Thess that the return of Christ to gather the church could not occur until AFTER the revealing of the antichrist, a thing that happens in the tribulation period. The Tribulation Jesus described is not the wrath of God but a time of great persecution against the church and Israel.

Sam I;ve read every thing Paul wrote and I've never notice him say antiChrist, can you show me that passage?

 

[Hitch]

acts 1:6,7 kjv

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


what a dumb question to the lord if that is the truth, surely then and there he would have corrected them but look at the following verses

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

so why would leave them hanging if they were so far off?

LOL I love this, the whole of the rapture nonsense eventually rests on a question Jesus declined to answer directly, and the resulting guesses formed from the silence of the scriptures.

 

[Sam21]

Sam I;ve read every thing Paul wrote and I've never notice him say antiChrist, can you show me that passage?

Hi Hitch: In fact Paul never wrote the word antichrist in any of his letters. I am convinced that the SON OF PERDITION described by Paul is also the ANTICHRIST described by John and the LITTLE HORN described by Daniel, and the BEAST described in Revelation, therefore I usually use the word ANTICHRIST to describe the evil end time ruler that opposes God.