Pre-Millennialism?

[F345T]

... before that happens ...

So you believe it will happen.

 

[F345T]

Well , now here is your chance to give us your interpretation of these verses , I mean if you don't mind .

Revelation 20​

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I just believe that is all a symbolic version of 1 Cor. 15:21-27.

It's got the resurrection, it's got the (symbolic/non-literal) 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth, it's got the enemies being dealt with, etc.

Rev. 20 doesn't align with all the other end times passages so it's gotta mean something other than what it has been passed off as. It can't mean that there will be a long time period on the earth after Christ's return when the Bible teaches in many other places that the end comes at Christ's return, God will work on us until that day only, the earth will be melted to nothing and so on and so forth.

Sensible, Biblical, provable ... what more could you want?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thank you for the reply.

I have found more evidence to support that outcome than the more popular Pre-Mil concept.

God bless.

Any non pre-mil theology is equating the Pope with Christ. The Vatican did reign over western Europe for about a thousand years since the fall of the Roman Empire, that's not the millennial kingdom. For anybody who believes we're already living in the millennial kingdom and Christ is already reigning in heaven, keep in mind of Is. 5:20 and Deut. 28:67 -

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

" In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see."

 

[Consecrated Life]

So you believe it will happen.

Yes, Based on His Word I believe Christ will rule on earth for a period of time .

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings wondering,

How do your NT verses above show that Jesus will reign for 1,000 years?
Luke 1:30-33

The NT verses you ask me to comment upon do not specifically mention 1000 years as this length of time is only given twice in Revelation 20. But I believe that the 1000 years mentioned there are literal, and that all the other verses that I quoted, both OT and NT, are speaking of this event and hence this period of time, when Jesus returns to the earth and establishes His Kingdom and rules from Jerusalem, sitting upon the Temple Trone of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

Luke 1:30-33 Matthew 19:28 Acts 1:10-11 Acts 3:19-21 1 Cor 15:20-28 2 Timothy 4:1, 6-8
Actually, 3 or 4 verses would do.

Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
I understand the word translated "for ever" can be better understood to represent an "Age".

Matthew 19:28 (KJV): 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Absolutely no problem here. A picture of the future Kingdom when Christ returns and a significant remnant of the mortals from the nation of Israel are converted.

Acts 1:10–11 (KJV): 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Speaks of Jesus' return from heaven and in the context of their question, it will be at that time that Jesus will restore the Kingdom to Israel.

Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
This includes Peter's understanding of Acts 1:10-11, that Jesus will return from heaven to establish the Kingdom. It will not be a time of burning the earth, but refreshing and restoration, and many OT prophecies could be cited to elucidate what Peter claimed here, such as Psalm 72.

1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This is perhaps the clearest testimony, and speaks of the Kingdom and what it will accomplish. It clearly gives a picture of a long period of time without specifying 1000 years.

2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
This teaches that Paul looked forward to the return of Jesus and that the Judgement and then the Kingdom would occur at his return.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[F345T]

Any non pre-mil theology is equating the Pope with Christ. The Vatican did reign over western Europe for about a thousand years since the fall of the Roman Empire, that's not the millennial kingdom. For anybody who believes we're already living in the millennial kingdom and Christ is already reigning in heaven, keep in mind of Is. 5:20 and Deut. 28:67 -

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

" In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see."

I've never heard of that before. The Pope?

My Amillennial beliefs come from the Bible's comments from Jesus about the Kingdom being at the time of His physical life on the earth, it's a non-literal 1000 year period and it ends when 1 Cor. 15:23-24 says that Jesus returns physically and turns the Kingdom over to the Father. There's gotta be an existing Kingdom in order to turn it over to the Father at that time.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God IS among you in Luke 17:21. He also said there that it cannot be observed, so it can't be a physical Millennium after His return.

 

[F345T]

Yes, Based on His Word I believe Christ will rule on earth for a period of time .

Wow, you're slippery. Seems like you're afraid to commit for some reason. The thread is about Pre-Millennialism. Do you believe there will be a physical millennium upon this earth AFTER Christ returns?

Christ can be ruling on this earth spiritually right now or physically after His return. Which do you feel good about?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I've never heard of that before. The Pope?

My Amillennial beliefs come from the Bible's comments from Jesus about the Kingdom being at the time of His physical life on the earth, it's a non-literal 1000 year period and it ends when 1 Cor. 15:23-24 says that Jesus returns physically and turns the Kingdom over to the Father. There's gotta be an existing Kingdom in order to turn it over to the Father at that time.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God IS among you in Luke 17:21. He also said there that it cannot be observed, so it can't be a physical Millennium after His return.

Read it again, man. "Millennial kingdom" is referring to a literal 1000 year reign by Christ, that doesn't exclude the reality that such a kingdom already exists before that. The problem is that the present ruler is Satan, not Christ, see Eph. 2:2. When Christ returns, he'll defeat Satan and take over the stolen kingdom, that's what 1 Cor. 15:23-24 means. The kingdom is NOT a spiritual realm in your head, it's as real as the Holy Land where Jerusalem is the quarter. Till today, the holy land is still divided as the center of all world conflict. If the kingdom is not physical, then what does Jesus return for?

 

[F345T]

Read it again, man. "Millennial kingdom" is referring to a literal 1000 year reign by Christ, that doesn't exclude the reality that such a kingdom already exists before that. The problem is that the present ruler is Satan, not Christ, see Eph. 2:2. When Christ returns, he'll defeat Satan and take over the stolen kingdom, that's what 1 Cor. 15:23-24 means. The kingdom is NOT a spiritual realm in your head, it's as real as the Holy Land where Jerusalem is the quarter. Till today, the holy land is still divided as the center of all world conflict. If the kingdom is not physical, then what does Jesus return for?

He returns for all His jars of clay, His people that carry His Truth and His Spirit. They are the physical part of His Spiritual Kingdom that is upon the entire earth as we speak (type/read).

Read it again, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Tim. 6:14-15, Rev. 1:8; 17:14 & 19:16). He can't be a King without a Kingdom. The Father gave, not is-gonna-give, He 'gave' Jesus all power and authority 'in heaven and earth.' (Matt. 28:19) That is a NOW reality. He says Himself in John 18:36 His Kingdom (present) is not of (from) this world. His Kingdom existed when He spoke those words. It exists now and it will be turned over to the Father upon His return.

Eph. 1:20-21 declares that at Christ's resurrection He was raised "Far above all ... not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, ..."

 

[hawkman]

I just believe that is all a symbolic version of 1 Cor. 15:21-27.

It's got the resurrection, it's got the (symbolic/non-literal) 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth, it's got the enemies being dealt with, etc.

What I think is we have is events of the future being told to the Corinthians in a manner so they would understand it .

In Revelation 20 we now have the final detailed explanation of the same events to come .

Rev. 20 doesn't align with all the other end times passages so it's gotta mean something other than what it has been passed off as.

Thanks for sharing the Corinthians verses .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

He returns for all His jars of clay, His people that carry His Truth and His Spirit. They are the physical part of His Spiritual Kingdom that is upon the entire earth as we speak (type/read).

Read it again, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Tim. 6:14-15, Rev. 1:8; 17:14 & 19:16). He can't be a King without a Kingdom. The Father gave, not is-gonna-give, He 'gave' Jesus all power and authority 'in heaven and earth.' (Matt. 28:19) That is a NOW reality. He says Himself in John 18:36 His Kingdom (present) is not of (from) this world. His Kingdom existed when He spoke those words. It exists now and it will be turned over to the Father upon His return.

Eph. 1:20-21 declares that at Christ's resurrection He was raised "Far above all ... not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, ..."

His kingdom was not of this world because Satan has stolen it. "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Matt. 4:8-9) Satan could tempt Jesus with all nations on earth because he was reigning over these nations in the present age, he had them in his pocket, and it'll remain that way till Jesus returns. Are you gonna deny the physical existence of these nations and insist they are only "spiritual"? If Jesus is already reigning over these nations, then why did he issue the Great Commission to make disciples in all nations? The church hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet until ten days later, and you're suggesting that the church was already built and the Great Commission was already finished, how ridiculous is that?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Wow, you're slippery. Seems like you're afraid to commit for some reason. The thread is about Pre-Millennialism. Do you believe there will be a physical millennium upon this earth AFTER Christ returns?

Christ can be ruling on this earth spiritually right now or physically after His return. Which do you feel good about?

Yes I do Believe He will rule physically on earth after the tribulation.
For me, I can't imagine anyone questioning whether or not He is ruling on earth after He brings judgement to the earth.
I think things will be much different than they are today when He brings judgement in the earth.
I don't see it as being a subtle event in any way.

Psa 2:6
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten

Psa 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[F345T]

What I think is we have is events of the future being told to the Corinthians in a manner so they would understand it .

In Revelation 20 we now have the final detailed explanation of the same events to come .

Thanks for sharing the Corinthians verses .

You're welcome.

Actually Jesus tells us that Revelation is a book of signs and symbols and John repeats over and over that he is 'in the spirit' when he sees each vision. That means that all the other end times passages are the detailed explanations. Revelation is a whimsical, prophetic, symbolic, spiritual view of the events not even necessarily in a specific order just as we see John mentioning more than once seeing New Jerusalem coming down from the sky.

As a rule, whatever we see in Revelation 'must' coincide with the rest of the Bible. Jesus didn't write Revelation and then write the rest of the Bible as a commentary on Revelation. Revelation is the concluding chapter of the Bible so it's more likely the opposite. It's a summary of the entire Bible in spiritual, symbolic terms.

 

[F345T]

His kingdom was not of this world because Satan has stolen it. "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Matt. 4:8-9) Satan could tempt Jesus with all nations on earth because he was reigning over these nations in the present age, he had them in his pocket, and it'll remain that way till Jesus returns. Are you gonna deny the physical existence of these nations and insist they are only "spiritual"? If Jesus is already reigning over these nations, then why did he issue the Great Commission to make disciples in all nations? The church hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet until ten days later, and you're suggesting that the church was already built and the Great Commission was already finished, how ridiculous is that?

No, His Kingdom is not of this world because it's a 'spiritual' Kingdom. God is a spirit (John 4:24). Jesus is God. His people are a 'spiritual' people, not a physical flesh people. Nations in the Bible is often referring to races, not Nations as we understand them today. The Apostles did make disciples of all races and Jesus' Kingdom is full of people of all races.

No, I'm suggesting that His Kingdom began at that time, not that it was already finished. Christ's Kingdom began at the time of His earthly ministry. It will not just begin when He returns. That is when He will turn it over to the Father. What would He have to turn over to the Father at that time if it didn't begin until that time?

 

[F345T]

Yes I do Believe He will rule physically on earth after the tribulation.
For me, I can't imagine anyone questioning whether or not He is ruling on earth after He brings judgement to the earth.
I think things will be much different than they are today when He brings judgement in the earth.
I don't see it as being a subtle event in any way.

Psa 2:6
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten

Psa 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

That's okay, Roger Dodger.

The earth will be destroyed upon Christ's return. There will be no physical earth for anybody to rule over. Yes, things will be much different after that happens.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, His Kingdom is not of this world because it's a 'spiritual' Kingdom. God is a spirit (John 4:24). Jesus is God. His people are a 'spiritual' people, not a physical flesh people. Nations in the Bible is often referring to races, not Nations as we understand them today. The Apostles did make disciples of all races and Jesus' Kingdom is full of people of all races.

God may be spirit, but Jesus is not, he's a real man of flesh and blood, and so are his people! When he returns, the dead will be resurrected into new glorious beings like him when he was resurrected. As much as Jesus was of flesh and blood - before AND after his death, so will be his people - before AND after their death, not ethereal ghosts. You're thinking in terms of dualistic gnosticism, i.e. material things bad, spiritual things good, this perspective leads to "spiritualization" of everything in the bible, and thus makes it irrelevant - if everything is "spiritual", Jesus is spiritual, his people are spiritual, his kingdom is spiritual, his return is spiritual, then none of that is real, it's just all in your head to entertain yourself, and the bible would be no longer the highest authority since it's subject to your interpretation of "spiritualization", this is why Christianity is declining in the west.

No, I'm suggesting that His Kingdom began at that time, not that it was already finished. Christ's Kingdom began at the time of His earthly ministry. It will not just begin when He returns. That is when He will turn it over to the Father. What would He have to turn over to the Father at that time if it didn't begin until that time?

Neither was I suggesting that, hadn't I made it clear that Satan has stolen the kingdom? If not, you tell me why he is the prince of the air? Why did he get to offer all the kingdoms to Jesus in his temptation? That's also why Jesus declared that all authority has been given to him, that's a rebuke to Satan, Satan doesn't own the world, this world belongs to Jesus, and Jesus will come back and claim it - WHEN the great commission is finished! It doesn't matter when the kingdom begins, what matters is when HIS REIGN over the kingdom begins, and the answer is in Rev. 20 when he physically returns.

 

[hawkman]

Revelation is a whimsical, prophetic, symbolic, spiritual view of the events not even necessarily in a specific order just as we see John mentioning more than once seeing New Jerusalem coming down from the sky.

I must ask what parts of Revelation do you find to be "Playful or fanciful, especially in a humorous way" ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

That's okay, Roger Dodger.

The earth will be destroyed upon Christ's return. There will be no physical earth for anybody to rule over. Yes, things will be much different after that happens.

For me, I will trust in His Word as to His setting His judgement & rule on earth :

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:2
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Psalm 110:5
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Psalm 110:6
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

 

[F345T]

God may be spirit, but Jesus is not, he's a real man of flesh and blood, and so are his people! When he returns, the dead will be resurrected into new glorious beings like him when he was resurrected. As much as Jesus was of flesh and blood - before AND after his death, so will be his people - before AND after their death, not ethereal ghosts. You're thinking in terms of dualistic gnosticism, i.e. material things bad, spiritual things good, this perspective leads to "spiritualization" of everything in the bible, and thus makes it irrelevant - if everything is "spiritual", Jesus is spiritual, his people are spiritual, his kingdom is spiritual, his return is spiritual, then none of that is real, it's just all in your head to entertain yourself, and the bible would be no longer the highest authority since it's subject to your interpretation of "spiritualization", this is why Christianity is declining in the west.

Wow, you're way off, my friend. Jesus is not Spirit? He was of flesh and blood?

Who was His physical human earthly father that contributed to His conception?

No, it's not Gnosticism at all. Did God not create the entire known world/universe? Uh huh and isn't God a Spirit? Yes, and that means that absolutely everything is spiritual - to some degree - but when we're talking physical/spiritual, it's usually more of a physical fallen 'dying and dead' world VS purely spiritual concepts and beings.

Jesus is a spirit. How else can He be inside us?
"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead ... but the Spirit is life ..."
Romans 8:9-11
How else can He live with us?
John 14:21-23

If you don't believe Jesus is a Spirit, then you don't believe Jesus is God (who is a Spirit Jn. 4:24) and I can give you a 6 ft long post loaded with verses that prove Jesus is God. I don't think that is being debated at all.

Christianity is declining because all the seminaries and churches are teaching a whole bunch of nonsense ... like this.

Neither was I suggesting that, hadn't I made it clear that Satan has stolen the kingdom? If not, you tell me why he is the prince of the air? Why did he get to offer all the kingdoms to Jesus in his temptation? That's also why Jesus declared that all authority has been given to him, that's a rebuke to Satan, Satan doesn't own the world, this world belongs to Jesus, and Jesus will come back and claim it - WHEN the great commission is finished! It doesn't matter when the kingdom begins, what matters is when HIS REIGN over the kingdom begins, and the answer is in Rev. 20 when he physically returns.

Satan never stole God's Kingdom. Can you provide a verse to explain why you would think that? This world is not God's Kingdom. Again, Jesus declared that His Kingdom is not of this (fallen/satanic) world.

Jesus defeated Satan at the Cross. Simple as that. Then Jesus' Spirit began entering into His Faithful ones all over the world - just as I said. Jesus is King right now, ruling in and through all of His Faithful ones all over the world. The devil will have his short time to test and cause havoc until Jesus returns, but he is already defeated.

"It is finished."

The end.

 

[F345T]

I must ask what parts of Revelation do you find to be "Playful or fanciful, especially in a humorous way" ?

Since that's the only thing you latched on to, you either can't argue with the rest of the sentence or you agree with it. Good.

So we can agree that "Revelation is a whimsical, prophetic, symbolic, spiritual view of the events not even necessarily in a specific order just as we see John mentioning more than once seeing New Jerusalem coming down from the sky."