Pre-Millennialism?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

If you believe there's no consciousness,, then what's the difference from soul sleep?

Perhaps it is only terminology, but I believe that it is our brain that thinks, and when oxygen is denied for more than 10 minutes the brain cannot be recovered. I consider that man does not have an immortal soul or a separate soul that sleeps when dead. I believe man is made of dust and when he dies he returns to the dust.
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Perhaps it is only terminology, but I believe that it is our brain that thinks, and when oxygen is denied for more than 10 minutes the brain cannot be recovered. I consider that man does not have an immortal soul or a separate soul that sleeps when dead. I believe man is made of dust and when he dies he returns to the dust.

Yes, but you forgot one critical component. The body returns to dust, the spirit is released awaiting for the final judgement. The term "soul" is often used interchangeably with "spirit", but these two are not the same. By biblical definition, the body is activated by the spirit and becomes a soul, so "body” plus "spirit" equals "soul".

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)

At death, the spirit is released from the body and returns to where it comes from:

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit!’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46)

The body is mortal, it has its end, while the spirit is immortal, each one's spirit will be united with its idol forever in hell or with God forever in heaven.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

Yes, but you forgot one critical component. The body returns to dust, the spirit is released awaiting for the final judgement.

I appreciate your perspective, but I consider that when Adam was created he was made of dust and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, his first breath like any baby or animal just born. I consider that this is combined with God's "spirit" power which sustains all life. This "Spirit" is not a separate conscious entity. If you would like me to start quoting some relevant references I could oblige, but it could take a few hours to find the most appropriate.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

I appreciate your perspective, but I consider that when Adam was created he was made of dust and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, his first breath like any baby or animal just born. I consider that this is combined with God's "spirit" power which sustains all life. This "Spirit" is not a separate conscious entity. If you would like me to start quoting some relevant references I could oblige, but it could take a few hours to find the most appropriate.

Kind regards
Trevor

Nope, in Gen. 2:9 God formed plants out of the ground, in 2:19 God formed animals and birds out of the ground, there's no mention of spirit breathed in them even though plants and animals do breathe. God only breathed spirit into mankind, that's a separate entity unique to us, it's not just oxygen.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

God only breathed spirit into mankind, that's a separate entity unique to us, it's not just oxygen.

I am not conscious of the idea that God breathed "spirit into mankind" and that this is a separate entity unique to man. I will simply quote a few verses with brief comments and leave this for this evening Australian time, and possibly add some more material or clarification in about 20 hours.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
There is no actual mention here that "God breathed spirit into mankind".

Genesis 7:21–22 (KJV): 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
The breath of life was in man and beast.

Psalm 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
This indicates that there is no consciousness in death.

Psalm 146:3–4 (KJV): 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This also indicates that there is no consciousness in death.

Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
You use this verse, but the "sleep" is in the dust of the earth, not a consciousness separate from the body now disintegrated into dust.

John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Jesus clearly explains what is meant by the figure of "sleep".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am not conscious of the idea that God breathed "spirit into mankind" and that this is a separate entity unique to man. I will simply quote a few verses with brief comments and leave this for this evening Australian time, and possibly add some more material or clarification in about 20 hours.Is

Is the Holy Spirit not a separate entity? The Holy Spirit is described by Jesus as the advocate acting in his place, He speaks to Paul and gave him instructions, surely that's not just oxygen. Also, how do you explain Rev. 6:9-10 where the souls of martyrs are crying out? How do you explain the rich man's encounter with Abraham in Lk. 16:19-31? Was Jesus's corpse lying unconscious when he was in the tomb? Most certainly he was already gone, when the angel rolled the stone away, nobody saw Jesus walking out, the purpose was to let the witnesses in and examine the empty tomb, not getting Jesus out. So where was Jesus? The answer is Hades, where he set the captives free - "I have the keys of Death and Hades", he wasn't lying idly by. Bible doesn't contradict itself.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

Is the Holy Spirit not a separate entity? The Holy Spirit is described by Jesus as the advocate acting in his place, He speaks to Paul and gave him instructions, surely that's not just oxygen.

I believe in God's "Spirit" and the "Holy Spirit" which was possessed by the OT prophets and this was the means whereby they spoke under inspiration and wrote the prophetic books. The early believers also received the Holy Spirit gifts, and exactly how they felt this, and how this operated we do not fully understand.

I cannot accept the claim that this is the same or similar to "our spirit" and that in any way this proves that "our spirit" is the seat of all of our intelligence and that this continues on after our death is not revealed in the Scriptures. If anything the Scriptures reveal that our thinking ceases at death and we return to the dust awaiting "awakening from sleep" at the resurrection.

Also, how do you explain Rev. 6:9-10 where the souls of martyrs are crying out?

This is figurative language based upon the altar of burnt offering, where the animal was slain and the blood poured out at the foot of the altar. The persecution under Diocletian caused many to die, and their death called out for revenge, which occurred under Constantine.

How do you explain the rich man's encounter with Abraham in Lk. 16:19-31?

I believe this is a parable, speaking against the covetousness of the Pharisees, and a parody based upon the false beliefs of the Pharisees, and also against the Sadducees who did not believe in resurrection. Jesus speaks about Lazarus and the true teaching of resurrection at the end of the parable and Jesus words were fulfilled when after the resurrection of Lazarus the Sadducees and Pharisees failed to repent and decided to kill both Jesus and Lazarus.

Was Jesus's corpse lying unconscious when he was in the tomb?

Yes.

Most certainly he was already gone, when the angel rolled the stone away, nobody saw Jesus walking out, the purpose was to let the witnesses in and examine the empty tomb, not getting Jesus out. So where was Jesus?

No, the Angels raised Jesus from the dead and they removed his grave clothes as per the example of Lazarus. He appeared to Mary in the Garden.

So where was Jesus? The answer is Hades, where he set the captives free - "I have the keys of Death and Hades", he wasn't lying idly by. Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Hades is the grave not some hidden spirit world and in this case it was a tomb.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

I believe in God's "Spirit" and the "Holy Spirit" which was possessed by the OT prophets and this was the means whereby they spoke under inspiration and wrote the prophetic books. The early believers also received the Holy Spirit gifts, and exactly how they felt this, and how this operated we do not fully understand.

I cannot accept the claim that this is the same or similar to "our spirit" and that in any way this proves that "our spirit" is the seat of all of our intelligence and that this continues on after our death is not revealed in the Scriptures. If anything the Scriptures reveal that our thinking ceases at death and we return to the dust awaiting "awakening from sleep" at the resurrection.

This is figurative language based upon the altar of burnt offering, where the animal was slain and the blood poured out at the foot of the altar. The persecution under Diocletian caused many to die, and their death called out for revenge, which occurred under Constantine.

I believe this is a parable, speaking against the covetousness of the Pharisees, and a parody based upon the false beliefs of the Pharisees, and also against the Sadducees who did not believe in resurrection. Jesus speaks about Lazarus and the true teaching of resurrection at the end of the parable and Jesus words were fulfilled when after the resurrection of Lazarus the Sadducees and Pharisees failed to repent and decided to kill both Jesus and Lazarus.

Yes.

No, the Angels raised Jesus from the dead and they removed his grave clothes as per the example of Lazarus. He appeared to Mary in the Garden.

Hades is the grave not some hidden spirit world and in this case it was a tomb.

Kind regards
Trevor

You're still thinking of human brain, not the spirit of God. We're not on the same page. Human brain is part of the body which God formed from the dust of the ground, when the body dies and stops pumping blood into the brain, the brain dies as well, but that spirit is not dead, it returns to God and receives its judgement. The brain is the seat of consciousness and intelligence, the spirit is more than those, it's your fundemantal belief, through which you view and process everything, it transcends consciousness and intelligence, and often leads to irrational decisions against social norms, your own intuition and past experience. In the synoptic gospels there're several events of exorcism where Jesus cast out evil spirits, those are Satan's fallen angels who will be cast into the Lake of Fire, they possess people, they roam around the earth, and they do NOT return to the ground like the body.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, the Angels raised Jesus from the dead and they removed his grave clothes as per the example of Lazarus. He appeared to Mary in the Garden.

Jesus did NOT walked out of the tomb and appeared to Mary Magdalene, no gospel account says that. When the women arrived at the tomb, it was ALREADY empty, he didn't walk out of the tomb like Lazarus.

behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. (Matt. 28:2)

He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. (Matt. 28:6)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

You're still thinking of human brain, not the spirit of God. We're not on the same page. Human brain is part of the body which God formed from the dust of the ground, when the body dies and stops pumping blood into the brain, the brain dies as well, but that spirit is not dead, it returns to God and receives its judgement.

Yes, we are not on the same page. The Judgement is NOT when we die but is when Jesus returns and raises the dead and establishes His Kingdom for the 1000 years, Pre-Millennialism - simple and clear.
2 Timothy 4:1–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul was not looking forward to being whisked away at death to some spirit world.

Jesus did NOT walked out of the tomb and appeared to Mary Magdalene, no gospel account says that. When the women arrived at the tomb, it was ALREADY empty, he didn't walk out of the tomb like Lazarus.

The women arrived after the stone had been moved and after Jesus had been resurrected. The body of Jesus was resurrected, not turned into a vapour. The clothes were folded. Mary did meet Jesus in the Garden and Jesus spoke to Mary.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The women arrived after the stone had been moved and after Jesus had been resurrected. The body of Jesus was resurrected, not turned into a vapour. The clothes were folded. Mary did meet Jesus in the Garden and Jesus spoke to Mary.

Jesus was resurrected in a new body OUTSIDE of the tomb where he met Mary, not a resuscitated beaten corpse, because "HE IS NOT THERE". There's no such report that he walked out of the tomb, none of the four gospels stated or implied that, neither the guards, the women nor disciple saw that, they only saw an empty tomb. That corpse did disappear like vapor, the shroud folded inward, not spreading outward, there's nothing there. If you believe the Turin Shroud is authentic, then he passed straight through it and left his image in the shroud, exactly like vapor.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, we are not on the same page. The Judgement is NOT when we die but is when Jesus returns and raises the dead and establishes His Kingdom for the 1000 years, Pre-Millennialism - simple and clear.

But there's the judgemeant seat of Christ, also known as the bema seat. I didn't specify the timing. The Lord's court may not immediately be in session for our judgement when we die, but it will come to pass when Jesus returns and establishes his kingdom, as you said. And there's no sense of time - a day with the Lord is like a thousand years.

"Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences." (2 Cor. 5:9-11)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

Jesus was resurrected in a new body OUTSIDE of the tomb where he met Mary, not a resuscitated beaten corpse, because "HE IS NOT THERE".

Resurrection is raising the old body, sometimes out of the dust, restoring it to life, and then granting this body a change to immortality.
[color-blue]Luke 24:36–40 (KJV): 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

John 20:24–28 (KJV): 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Philippians 3:20–21 (KJV): 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. [/color]
Change not exchange.

That corpse did disappear like vapor, the shroud folded inward, not spreading outward, there's nothing there. If you believe the Turin Shroud is authentic, then he passed straight through it and left his image in the shroud, exactly like vapor.

I reject that concept and the RCC "relics". How many pieces of the cross have been exhibited, (one piece given at Charles' Coronation) and how many pints of blood.

But there's the judgement seat of Christ, also known as the bema seat.

You seemed to imply that "our spirit" would be judged immediately after death and you seemed to use the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to prove that the spirits of the faithful will already upon death be in Abraham's bosom receiving blessing and the wicked upon death were receiving burning and torture. Are the spirits punished before they are judged, before the resurrection of the body? If they are already judged, why is there another judgement?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Resurrection is raising the old body, sometimes out of the dust, restoring it to life, and then granting this body a change to immortality.

No, what you're thinking is necromancy, not resurrection. You're seeking the living among the dead. Christ was raised in a new body that bears some resemblance to the old one as proof of his identity, but it's not the old one. Thomas wasn't seeing a ghost, neither was he seeing a zombie, he was seeing the Lord in a brand new, incorruptible body.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor. 15:51-53)

I reject that concept and the RCC "relics". How many pieces of the cross have been exhibited, (one piece given at Charles' Coronation) and how many pints of blood.

That particular "relic” corroborates this particular detail below. Those linen cloths didn't spread, but "folded together in a place by itself." Neither Jesus nor any angel folded it, the corpse just disappeared as if evaporated, that's a miracle.

Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. (Jn. 20:6-7)

You seemed to imply that "our spirit" would be judged immediately after death and you seemed to use the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to prove that the spirits of the faithful will already upon death be in Abraham's bosom receiving blessing and the wicked upon death were receiving burning and torture. Are the spirits punished before they are judged, before the resurrection of the body? If they are already judged, why is there another judgement?

Because only believers receive a judgement based on their works, and they will receive rewards accordingly, that's the gist of the parable of talents and the parable of minas, and ultimately, that's also the Lord's review on our job performance of the cultural mandate in Gen. 1:28 - "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it." Unbelievers whose names are not found in the Book of Life don't receive any judgement, they receive the final verdict without any trial, and they're thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Yes, changed, not exchanged or replaced.

folded together in a place by itself.

If Jesus had vapourised through the clothes, then the clothes would not be folded, but would to some extent resemble the shape of his body.

Unbelievers whose names are not found in the Book of Life don't receive any judgement, they receive the final verdict without any trial, and they're thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The Judgement Seat has faithful and unfaithful servants. The faithful will be accepted at that time and receive immortal life, the unfaithful at the same time will be rejected and they will suffer for a time and then die the second death and return to the dust.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, changed, not exchanged or replaced.

Yes, not "exchanged" or "replaced" with another corruptible body, but "changed" into a new, incorruptible body, it's not the same kind.

If Jesus had vapourised through the clothes, then the clothes would not be folded, but would to some extent resemble the shape of his body.

No, they would collapse when there's nothing in it, exactly as the verse described. Why would you assume such "extent" that resemble the shape of his body? If you put a basketball under a blanket, then you pull the basketball out, does the blanket resemble the shape of the basketball? Or just fall flat?

The Judgement Seat has faithful and unfaithful servants. The faithful will be accepted at that time and receive immortal life, the unfaithful at the same time will be rejected and they will suffer for a time and then die the second death and return to the dust.

No, the unfaithful remain dead until the end of the millennial reign. "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:5)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

Yes, not "exchanged" or "replaced" with another corruptible body, but "changed" into a new, incorruptible body, it's not the same kind.

Our mortal body will be changed into an immortal body, not replaced. Our mortal body will not be evaporated.

No, they would collapse when there's nothing in it, exactly as the verse described.

They were folded either by Jesus or the Angels, not collapsed. The Angels would have been present to supply new suitable clothes.

No, the unfaithful remain dead until the end of the millennial reign.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Some will be rejected at the first resurrection. There is no gap of 1000 years in the above reference. Would you like a few more verses that teach this?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Our mortal body will be changed into an immortal body, not replaced. Our mortal body will not be evaporated.

No, but it will decompose into dust, and God won't construct immortal bodies with those dust.

They were folded either by Jesus or the Angels, not collapsed. The Angels would have been present to supply new suitable clothes.

No they were not, you're contradicting to the plain text in the Scripture.

Some will be rejected at the first resurrection. There is no gap of 1000 years in the above reference. Would you like a few more verses that teach this?

Dan. 12:2 only says all will be resurrected, there's an afterlife, it doesn't say all will rise simultaneously. A gap of 1000 years is described in Rev. 20, there's the first resurrection and the second death, which clearly indicates there's a second resurrection, that's for those who're rejected at the first resurrection. The Scripture doesn't contradict itself, you do.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

We disagree on all three concepts. How do you explain the three parables of Matthew 25? Do these teach a 1000 year gap between the resurrection and judgement of the faithful and unfaithful?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

We disagree on all three concepts. How do you explain the three parables of Matthew 25? Do these teach a 1000 year gap between the resurrection and judgement of the faithful and unfaithful?

Kind regards
Trevor

The answer is also in Rev. 20. The faithful reign with Christ for 1000 years, the unfaithful rebel against Christ at the end of the 1000 years. The judgement in 20:4 is this sheep and goats judgement, aslo known as the judgement of nations. It's not scheduled at the end of the 1000 year reign, but the beginning.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:7-9)