Pre-Millennialism?

[F345T]

F345T
"You've decided to make a silly rule that only your questions need be answered. You imagine that you're an attorney and I'm in the hot seat and have to answer your questions, but can't respond in any way other than how you allow."


Never would have thought based upon your Thread topic request to SHARE PASSAGES that SUPPORT DIFFERING VIEWS that submitting such a single verse to DISCUSS would get your mistletoe in such a bunch.
Sorry about that fella.
Thought you were interested in a serious back and forth conversation in differences of opinion ?
Obvious now that when a verse is submitted that presents the slightest challenge to you rather than talking like an adult and giving a point by point summary of why the verse does not apply , you basically say , " that does not apply, and I refuse to talk about it " :



Just a dash for the tall grass is all we get from you when a verse is submitted you feel challenged by.
Caused by your having O% spiritual power to work with in detailing the fault with what you claim as being the misapplied Word of God .
If the Lord was with you, on it you would never be this fearful in going forward and breaking down in detail someone making misapplication for His Word.
His presence is the key to banishing your obvious lack of confidence in diving into His Word with both feet rather than sticking a little toe in and running away.
Based upon your topic thread's request for verse of differing opinion to discuss by dismissing verses given out of hand you are running an dishonest & unethical thread.

Yeah, okay.

I see that you're very impressed with all that you have to say.

Enjoy.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again wondering,

I don't believe the word FOREVER in Luke 1:30-33 could be understood to mean an AGE.
I believe it actually means forever, one of my bibles says into eternity...which means forever.

Perhaps it is because I have been in an environment that considers that the sequence is that Jesus returns, raises the dead (no immortal souls in heaven), judges the faithful and gives them immortality and a share in the Promised Land to rule with Christ when Jesus sits upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years over converted mortal Israel and the submitted mortal nations, individuals from Israel and the nations who have survived Armageddon Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14. I have always been taught that both Aion and Olahm speak of a period of time, and any start and finish need to be determined by the context and other Bible teaching.

I sometimes refer to my Word Dictionaries, and the following is some selective portions from these:
Enhanced Strong's: 165 αἰών 1 for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2 the worlds, universe. 3 period of time, age.
Vine's: 1. aion (αἰών, 165), “an age, era”, signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.
TDNT: αἰών in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity. ... Only in the light of the context can it be said whether αἰών means “eternity” in the strict sense or simply “remote” or “extended” or “uninterrupted time.”

Your reaction to my quoting and brief comments on Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:10-11, Acts 3:19-21 are "Agreed", "Agreed" and "Agreed", and as far as I am concerned these three references speak clearly of the return of Jesus, and then a period of time when Christ rules upon the earth upon the Throne of David.

Agreed. I'm just not certain if the earth will have to end/be destroyed first, or if it'll change like our bodies will be at the end.

I accept that there will be judgements when Christ returns, but the overall effect will be times of refreshing and restoration. Our bodies will be changed when Christ returns, at the beginning of the 1000 years, not at "the end", especially if you are referring to "the end" mentioned in the following:

1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This is perhaps the clearest testimony, and speaks of the Kingdom and what it will accomplish. It clearly gives a picture of a long period of time without specifying 1000 years.

Interesting that you think it refers to a long period of time. Will be thinking on this some more.

I understand verse 23 clearly speaks of the resurrection of the faithful when Jesus returns (no immortal souls). It is at this time Jesus sets up the Kingdom, as per also 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 despite your following comments:

It sounds like 2 Timothy 4:1, 6-8 is conflicting with 1 Cor 15:20-28.
Cor seems like it could mean a long period of time,
and Tim seems like everything is going to happen at once at the end of time.

I understand that 1 Corinthians 15:24 speaks of "the end" of the Kingdom, the end of the 1000 years. During this period of time Christ and the faithful will be kings and priests over the mortal population, and they will be taught the ways of God so that at the end of the 1000 years the following will be the outcome:
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
It is at that time, at the end of the 1000 years that Jesus will abolish death itself, and ALL will be in harmony with God, and thus the Kingdom will have achieved it's purpose and thus:
1 Corinthians 15:24–28 (KJV): 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign (for the 1000 years), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[F345T]

Greetings again wondering,

Perhaps it is because I have been in an environment that considers that the sequence is that Jesus returns, raises the dead (no immortal souls in heaven), judges the faithful and gives them immortality and a share in the Promised Land to rule with Christ when Jesus sits upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years over converted mortal Israel and the submitted mortal nations, individuals from Israel and the nations who have survived Armageddon Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14. I have always been taught that both Aion and Olahm speak of a period of time, and any start and finish need to be determined by the context and other Bible teaching.

I sometimes refer to my Word Dictionaries, and the following is some selective portions from these:
Enhanced Strong's: 165 αἰών 1 for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2 the worlds, universe. 3 period of time, age.
Vine's: 1. aion (αἰών, 165), “an age, era”, signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.
TDNT: αἰών in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity. ... Only in the light of the context can it be said whether αἰών means “eternity” in the strict sense or simply “remote” or “extended” or “uninterrupted time.”

Your reaction to my quoting and brief comments on Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:10-11, Acts 3:19-21 are "Agreed", "Agreed" and "Agreed", and as far as I am concerned these three references speak clearly of the return of Jesus, and then a period of time when Christ rules upon the earth upon the Throne of David.

I accept that there will be judgements when Christ returns, but the overall effect will be times of refreshing and restoration. Our bodies will be changed when Christ returns, at the beginning of the 1000 years, not at "the end", especially if you are referring to "the end" mentioned in the following:


I understand verse 23 clearly speaks of the resurrection of the faithful when Jesus returns (no immortal souls). It is at this time Jesus sets up the Kingdom, as per also 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 despite your following comments:

I understand that 1 Corinthians 15:24 speaks of "the end" of the Kingdom, the end of the 1000 years. During this period of time Christ and the faithful will be kings and priests over the mortal population, and they will be taught the ways of God so that at the end of the 1000 years the following will be the outcome:
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
It is at that time, at the end of the 1000 years that Jesus will abolish death itself, and ALL will be in harmony with God, and thus the Kingdom will have achieved it's purpose and thus:
1 Corinthians 15:24–28 (KJV): 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign (for the 1000 years), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind regards
Trevor

So am I correct in understanding that you are of the school of thought that believes there is a 1000 year period of time that takes place between 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Cor. 15:24?

A huge amount of time:

- that the text gives no indication of whatsoever
- that all end times passages completely contradict in multiple ways
- that Paul doesn't give any indication that he is "in the spirit" while writing to the church of Corinth which means it is not some spiritual vision that would be difficult to interpret
- that Jesus Himself contradicts when it is stated SIX TIMES in the book of John that He doesn't even come until the Last Day of the world
- and then some?

It just flummoxes me how much Scripture has to be removed from the Bible to accept such a belief is all.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So am I correct in understanding that you are of the school of thought that believes there is a 1000 year period of time that takes place between 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Cor. 15:24?

A huge amount of time:

- that the text gives no indication of whatsoever
- that all end times passages completely contradict in multiple ways
- that Paul doesn't give any indication that he is "in the spirit" while writing to the church of Corinth which means it is not some spiritual vision that would be difficult to interpret
- that Jesus Himself contradicts when it is stated SIX TIMES in the book of John that He doesn't even come until the Last Day of the world
- and then some?

It just flummoxes me how much Scripture has to be removed from the Bible to accept such a belief is all.

Put your bible aside and tell me this: if we're living in the kingdom right now, then why is this "kingdom" a dystopia of 1984 and the Brave New World combined? Why is the society on the brink of total collapse, trust in all institutions including the church is at historic low, and violent military conflict everywhere in the world? According to you, you just pretend that none of these is real, none of these matters, it's a utopia in your mind, you bury your head in this a "spiritual" kingdom, while let the world burn by itself. Whatever bible verses you quote, whatever theological arguments you make, it's all justification of this attitude, which is precisely prophesied in Is. 5:20 -

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings F345T,

So am I correct in understanding that you are of the school of thought that believes there is a 1000 year period of time that takes place between 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Cor. 15:24?

Yes. I believe in the return of Christ to establish His Kingdom upon the earth. I find that your statements have no real substance by comparison to the references that I have already quoted.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[F345T]

I find that your statements have no real substance by comparison to the references that I have already quoted.

If your references are from the Bible, they have the exact same substance that my statements do, Trevor.

I haven't seen you challenging any of my specific claims about all of the Biblical passages that completely contradict your Pre-Mil belief. Is that because you know that you can't challenge Biblical contradictions to that doctrine?

I find that your doctrine has no real substance by comparison to my Biblical proof texts that make Pre-Mil look ridiculous.

And further, I claim that there is a hidden time period right in the middle of Rev. 20:9 that reveals Matt. 24:29-31 where Christ returns and the brightness of His coming burns all God's enemies just as the rest of the verse says and He resurrects the dead and raises the righteous to be with Him and that proves that Rev. 20 has nothing to do with any 1000 years that takes place after Christ's return because Christ comes on the Last Day of the earth.

You can twist it and bend it all you want, but Pre-Mil doesn't fit the full Biblical narrative at all.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again F345T,

If your references are from the Bible, they have the exact same substance that my statements do, Trevor.

The series of Posts that you tapped into goes back to Page 2 Post #25.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[F345T]

The series of Posts that you tapped into goes back to Page 2 Post #25.

Okay ... ?

 

[JLB]

Greetings again wondering,

Perhaps it is because I have been in an environment that considers that the sequence is that Jesus returns, raises the dead (no immortal souls in heaven), judges the faithful and gives them immortality and a share in the Promised Land to rule with Christ when Jesus sits upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years over converted mortal Israel and the submitted mortal nations, individuals from Israel and the nations who have survived Armageddon Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14. I have always been taught that both Aion and Olahm speak of a period of time, and any start and finish need to be determined by the context and other Bible teaching.

I sometimes refer to my Word Dictionaries, and the following is some selective portions from these:
Enhanced Strong's: 165 αἰών 1 for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2 the worlds, universe. 3 period of time, age.
Vine's: 1. aion (αἰών, 165), “an age, era”, signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.
TDNT: αἰών in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity. ... Only in the light of the context can it be said whether αἰών means “eternity” in the strict sense or simply “remote” or “extended” or “uninterrupted time.”

Your reaction to my quoting and brief comments on Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:10-11, Acts 3:19-21 are "Agreed", "Agreed" and "Agreed", and as far as I am concerned these three references speak clearly of the return of Jesus, and then a period of time when Christ rules upon the earth upon the Throne of David.

I accept that there will be judgements when Christ returns, but the overall effect will be times of refreshing and restoration. Our bodies will be changed when Christ returns, at the beginning of the 1000 years, not at "the end", especially if you are referring to "the end" mentioned in the following:


I understand verse 23 clearly speaks of the resurrection of the faithful when Jesus returns (no immortal souls). It is at this time Jesus sets up the Kingdom, as per also 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 despite your following comments:

I understand that 1 Corinthians 15:24 speaks of "the end" of the Kingdom, the end of the 1000 years. During this period of time Christ and the faithful will be kings and priests over the mortal population, and they will be taught the ways of God so that at the end of the 1000 years the following will be the outcome:
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
It is at that time, at the end of the 1000 years that Jesus will abolish death itself, and ALL will be in harmony with God, and thus the Kingdom will have achieved it's purpose and thus:
1 Corinthians 15:24–28 (KJV): 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign (for the 1000 years), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you consider there to be a difference in the return of Jesus Christ to reign over the earth from His Throne in Jerusalem and the coming of the LORD, which is the Day of the LORD?




JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JLB,

Do you consider there to be a difference in the return of Jesus Christ to reign over the earth from His Throne in Jerusalem and the coming of the LORD, which is the Day of the LORD?

I am not sure of what references that you rely on to define what you consider "the Day of the LORD". To me the day of the LORD can refer to judgement, but it can also refer to the dawning of a new day of glory and light, when Jesus comes to reign upon the earth. David was given the promise of a son to sit upon his Throne, and to some extent this was fulfilled in Solomon, but David looked beyond the reign of Solomon to the glory of Christ's reign upon the earth:
Psalm 72:1–8 (KJV): 1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations. 6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. 7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

2 Samuel 23:1–7 (KJV): 1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. 4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain. 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow. 6 But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands: 7 But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

So each passage must be considered in its context. Looking at Isaiah and the last prophet Malachi:
Isaiah 60:1–5 (KJV): 1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Malachi 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Malachi 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you consider there to be a difference in the return of Jesus Christ to reign over the earth from His Throne in Jerusalem and the coming of the LORD, which is the Day of the LORD?




JLB

Hi JLB
The above is not for me, but I believe the Day of the Lord refers to the end of time when Jesus returns, when we will receive our glorified bodies, those that had died already, and those that are left on the earth, still living.

And, I believe it also means at the judgement day...which also comes at the end of of time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi JLB
The above is not for me, but I believe the Day of the Lord refers to the end of time when Jesus returns, when we will receive our glorified bodies, those that had died already, and those that are left on the earth, still living.

And, I believe it also means at the judgement day...which also comes at the end of of time.

Yes, that's what 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is really referring to. There's no alien abduction style "rapture".

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again wondering and Carry_Your_Name,

The above is not for me, but I believe the Day of the Lord refers to the end of time when Jesus returns, when we will receive our glorified bodies, those that had died already, and those that are left on the earth, still living.
And, I believe it also means at the judgement day...which also comes at the end of of time.

Yes, that's what 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is really referring to. There's no alien abduction style "rapture".

One of the local Baptist Churches invited the public to attend their Sunday afternoon meeting and the title of the address was to be something like "What will happen when Christ returns?". I was interested in what would be presented because I was not sure if the Baptists have a uniform, consistent teaching on this subject. Unfortunately, the only detail that the red-faced Pastor stated was that unless you repent you will be burnt in hell for eternity. Most of the time before and after the talk was spent on singing.

I was very conscious that Baptists strongly believe in immortal souls that go to heaven or hell at death. Then some Baptists believe in the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the body, which I assume is the reuniting of the body and soul, then the judgement but what they believe after this I do not know. Some believe in going to heaven again, and the wicked go to being tortured in hell for eternity, some burn the earth, but not sure if a new earth is created and if any of them inhabit the earth. I do not know what the rapture is all about and some of the various Left Behind concepts that are popular. I have never read any of those books.

So I would be interested in "What will happen when Christ returns?". Btw I am more than happy with my present perspective.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again wondering and Carry_Your_Name,


One of the local Baptist Churches invited the public to attend their Sunday afternoon meeting and the title of the address was to be something like "What will happen when Christ returns?". I was interested in what would be presented because I was not sure if the Baptists have a uniform, consistent teaching on this subject. Unfortunately, the only detail that the red-faced Pastor stated was that unless you repent you will be burnt in hell for eternity. Most of the time before and after the talk was spent on singing.

I was very conscious that Baptists strongly believe in immortal souls that go to heaven or hell at death. Then some Baptists believe in the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the body, which I assume is the reuniting of the body and soul, then the judgement but what they believe after this I do not know. Some believe in going to heaven again, and the wicked go to being tortured in hell for eternity, some burn the earth, but not sure if a new earth is created and if any of them inhabit the earth. I do not know what the rapture is all about and some of the various Left Behind concepts that are popular. I have never read any of those books.

So I would be interested in "What will happen when Christ returns?". Btw I am more than happy with my present perspective.

Kind regards
Trevor

What they mean by heaven and hell are usually New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire, but there're a lot of stuffs that must take place before that. All deceased immediately go to the grave, known as Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT, that's where Jesus personally went for a little over two days. See the link below for more details.

No Heaven or Hell, Only Sheʾol - TheTorah.com

Sheʾol and its synonyms, בּוֹר “pit,” שַׁחַת “chasm,” and אֲבַדּוֹן “oblivion,” was the fate of all people upon death. The wicked were sent there early, while the righteous were rewarded with a long life. During the Second Temple period, the negative attitude about death and sheʾol develops into...

www.thetorah.com

At the end, all will be resurrected, according to Dan. 12:2 -

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."

But there's a twist. According to Rev. 20:4-5, followers of Christ will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years, that resurrection is what 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is referring to, and it will come to pass when Christ returns. Non believers will stay dead until the end of the 1000 years -

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Then these people will probably be deceived by Satan and rebelling against Christ, and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with Satan:

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city."

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

What they mean by heaven and hell are usually New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire,

Even your brief answer raises a number of problems, and I imagine this is only your personal view, and not an official denomination view.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

Even your brief answer raises a number of problems, and I imagine this is only your personal view, and not an official denomination view.

Kind regards
Trevor

If you ask what heaven is like and what hell is like, their description will match the New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire, like pearly gate and golden street in heaven, and wailing souls and lava lake in hell, you know, the signature features. That's what immediately comes to mind, even non believers will describe heaven and hell like that, that's just a conventional view, not necessarily any "official denomination view".

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

All deceased immediately go to the grave, known as Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT, that's where Jesus personally went for a little over two days.

You state that all go to the grave, and then seem to indicate that they are conscious in some way, and then you quote Daniel 12:2 which states that those dead are asleep and they are "in the dust of the earth", not some region separate from their grave. Most Baptists and other Protestants believe that at death man's immortal soul goes to heaven or hell, either immediately or within a few days at the most.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

You state that all go to the grave, and then seem to indicate that they are conscious in some way, and then you quote Daniel 12:2 which states that those dead are asleep and they are "in the dust of the earth", not some region separate from their grave. Most Baptists and other Protestants believe that at death man's immortal soul goes to heaven or hell, either immediately or within a few days at the most.

Kind regards
Trevor

That's a myth called "soul sleep", which doesn't exist, there's no such thing. According to Rev. 6:9-10, in the fifth seal, the saints who, probably died in the four horsemen judgement, are crying out for justice, that doesn't sound like "sleep" to me.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

It's also against science, you know, our subconscious is more active when we're asleep than when we're awake, that's the REM (rapid eye movement) phase when we're dreaming, and we have no sense of time in this phase. In the bible, "sleep" is just a euphemism for death in both the OT and the NT, it actually implies that death is NOT the end, there's an afterlife, there's a resurrection for everyone, it's gonna be like waking up from a slumber. We're not gonna floating around as ethereal ghosts for eternity, we're gonna rise in new bodies.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

That's a myth called "soul sleep", which doesn't exist, there's no such thing.

I do not accept "soul sleep". I believe that when we die we return to the dust with no consciousness, awaiting the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings again Carry_Your_Name,

I do not accept "soul sleep". I believe that when we die we return to the dust with no consciousness, awaiting the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

If you believe there's no consciousness,, then what's the difference from soul sleep? Isn't that the same as soul sleep in another expression? I've already explained that the saints are not unconscious in Rev. 6:9-10, and neither are ain'ts. You remember that rich man who's begging Abraham for mercy after he died? Lazarus was resting in Abraham's bosom, the rich man was stranded on the other side of the "great gulf."