Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

[freeway]

Heaven

talking about where is Satan right now,,, Yes heaven, accusing the brethren before the throne
He sure isn't bound in hell...

 

[Stormcrow]

No No please answer me first, Is trinity in the bible?????

Nope. But then, we aren't discussing the trinity, are we?

 

[freeway]

just this one sip from stromcrow..

How truly little you think of Christ, His sacrifice, His glory and His
kingdom. Now you're not mocking me, you're mocking Him. I'd be careful about
that.

Are you kidding me,, thats your best comeback.. let me see, how little? Nothing I ever do in my life, or in eternity will ever pay back what Jesus has done for me, and for mankind in general.. NOTHING.

 

[freeway]

Nope. But then, we aren't discussing the trinity, are we?

yea kinda what I thought you would say can't find it now can we...

 

[Stormcrow]

Are you kidding me,, thats your best comeback.

I didn't realize this was a "war of wits" for you. If I were even the slightest bit interested in reciprocating, well...

 

[Stormcrow]

My apologies for the deviations from the point of this thread. It seems the critics - incapable of understanding the implications of the two distinct tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24, are intent upon hijacking this thread and turning the discussion to other issues.

It would be helpful if someone has a criticism of my first two posts, that they respond to the issues presented therein instead of derailing the whole thread.

Now, is there anyone who has a specific question or critique about the two tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24?

 

[Sam21]

Where is satan now?

Looking over the shoulder of many of the posters in this forum and telling them what to write. Peter said that satan was going about like a roaring lion,but wait,we are to ignor Peter's warning because some folks have told us that the words of Peter are not for us because the great deceiver has been restrained. Satan strives to separate the believer from the word of God, what better method then to tell the believer that what Peter said was just for them at that time and not for us. The biggest lie of satan is that the NT was just for those guys. Folks,if we have no NT instructions for us today then we have no christian faith(that is what satan is after).

 

[reba]

Looking over the shoulder of many of the posters in this forum and telling them what to write. Peter said that satan was going about like a roaring lion,but wait,we are to ignor Peter's warning because some folks have told us that the words of Peter are not for us because the great deceiver has been restrained. Satan strives to separate the believer from the word of God, what better method then to tell the believer that what Peter said was just for them at that time and not for us. The biggest lie of satan is that the NT was just for those guys. Folks,if we have no NT instructions for us today then we have no christian faith(that is what satan is after).

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And you agree with who?

 

[reba]

Stormcrow's OP

I keep hearing and reading the word "tribulation" thrown around a lot. Whenever it's used, people automatically assume what we've all been taught for years: it's a period that lasts seven years culminating in the return of Christ.

But does the Bible really teach this?

Let's have a look at what the Bible REALLY says about "tribulation."

First of all, let's start with what Christ Himself told His disciples:

{32} "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. {33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:32-33 (NASB)
​

The context of John 16 tells us Christ is preparing His disciples for the time when He will be leaving them and going back to the Father. The question as to how long the tribulation they will face is left completely open because their hope was not in the end of tribulation but in the overpowering work of Christ in the world.

Thus those who believe in Christ and who follow Him are to expect pressure (thlipsis) and are given the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome it.

Christ's words are fulfilled in Acts:

{51} "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. {52} "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; {53} you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

{54} Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. {55}But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." {57} But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

{58} When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. {59} They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" {60} Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:51-60 (NASB)
​

The death of Stephen - the church's first martyr - represents what it means to experience "grace under pressure." What happened next represents the full import of Christ's words:

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison. {4} Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. Acts 8:1-4 (NASB)

​

The following will appear controversial at first glance, but think about it carefully:

the church - the invisible, universal Body of Christ - has been under pressure (tribulation - thlipsis) since the day Stephen was stoned.
​

For most Christians throughout the world, (especially in Communist and Islamic countries) the idea of a mere seven year tribulation would be welcome.

However, many, many Christians have met their deaths at the hands - of first - the Jews, then the Romans (beginning with Nero), then Islam, then the Inquisitors, then the Reformers, Revolutionaries in France, Nazis in Germany, Communists in Russia, China, et al. Hopefully, you get the point.

The typical argument against this idea of a 2,000 year tribulation is that "well, when the REAL tribulation begins, it will make the last 2,000 years look like a picnic!"

Besides being terribly insensitive to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, such a view treats the death of millions of Christians world-wide as though their death were not significant to God. It's a view that says "my suffering will be worse than theirs" when the truth is, has any Christian in 21st Century America ever been disemboweled alive for their faith, or strapped into a brass chair naked while a fire is lit beneath it, burning them alive?

These are just some of the horrors Christians have faced and continue to face: torture, beheading, mutilation, demotion to second and third-class status in some parts of the world: all simply for believing in Christ.

The simple truth of the matter is the church world-wide will continue to suffer these things right up until the time Christ returns, whenever that may be.

Until then, He told us to expect this but also to be of good cheer. May God grant our brothers and sisters in Christ His "grace under pressure" until He comes.

In the next post, how this 2,000 year tribulation differs from that of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24.

Peace. Out.

 

[Sam21]

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And you agree with who?

I agree with God that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit...what do you believe? We both agree that Adam died on the day he ate of the tree, however we differ on the process, I believe that,you shall SURELY die, is the same as, you will die FOR SURE, and that would explain why Adam did not fall over dead the moment he took a bite of the fruit, he BEGIN to die IMMEDIATELY(he would die FOR SURE), Adam immediately inherited a life span that he did not have before he ate from the tree. Now your position is that Adam "died spiritually", if you would be so kind as to explain what that means. I will agree with you that he died spiritually if you can described how this happened by the bible and honest reason. First,we have to agree that Adam did not fall over dead when he ate from the tree,do you agree? Second,Adam still had a relationship with God but now it had to go through animal sacrifice,do you agree? What happened when Adam ate from the true was that he received the knowledge of good and evil and lost his sinlessness(he became a sinner),Adam lost his sinless innocent relationship with God,however Adam was still a spiritual being and still had a relationship with God(though clouded through sin).

 

[Sam21]

Stormcrow's OP

I keep hearing and reading the word "tribulation" thrown around a lot. Whenever it's used, people automatically assume what we've all been taught for years: it's a period that lasts seven years culminating in the return of Christ.

But does the Bible really teach this?

Let's have a look at what the Bible REALLY says about "tribulation."

First of all, let's start with what Christ Himself told His disciples:

{32} "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. {33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:32-33 (NASB)
​

The context of John 16 tells us Christ is preparing His disciples for the time when He will be leaving them and going back to the Father. The question as to how long the tribulation they will face is left completely open because their hope was not in the end of tribulation but in the overpowering work of Christ in the world.

Thus those who believe in Christ and who follow Him are to expect pressure (thlipsis) and are given the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome it.

Christ's words are fulfilled in Acts:

{51} "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. {52} "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; {53} you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

{54} Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. {55}But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." {57} But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

{58} When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. {59} They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" {60} Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:51-60 (NASB)
​

The death of Stephen - the church's first martyr - represents what it means to experience "grace under pressure." What happened next represents the full import of Christ's words:

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison. {4} Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. Acts 8:1-4 (NASB)

​

The following will appear controversial at first glance, but think about it carefully:

the church - the invisible, universal Body of Christ - has been under pressure (tribulation - thlipsis) since the day Stephen was stoned.
​

For most Christians throughout the world, (especially in Communist and Islamic countries) the idea of a mere seven year tribulation would be welcome.

However, many, many Christians have met their deaths at the hands - of first - the Jews, then the Romans (beginning with Nero), then Islam, then the Inquisitors, then the Reformers, Revolutionaries in France, Nazis in Germany, Communists in Russia, China, et al. Hopefully, you get the point.

The typical argument against this idea of a 2,000 year tribulation is that "well, when the REAL tribulation begins, it will make the last 2,000 years look like a picnic!"

Besides being terribly insensitive to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, such a view treats the death of millions of Christians world-wide as though their death were not significant to God. It's a view that says "my suffering will be worse than theirs" when the truth is, has any Christian in 21st Century America ever been disemboweled alive for their faith, or strapped into a brass chair naked while a fire is lit beneath it, burning them alive?

These are just some of the horrors Christians have faced and continue to face: torture, beheading, mutilation, demotion to second and third-class status in some parts of the world: all simply for believing in Christ.

The simple truth of the matter is the church world-wide will continue to suffer these things right up until the time Christ returns, whenever that may be.

Until then, He told us to expect this but also to be of good cheer. May God grant our brothers and sisters in Christ His "grace under pressure" until He comes.

In the next post, how this 2,000 year tribulation differs from that of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24.

Peace. Out.

A fundamental teaching of the NT is that christians will always experience tribulation,both from satan and the world, however Jesus described a particular period of time just before His return and called it the great tribulation,Jesus was specific that He would return immediately after that period of time that had been shortened by God lest all flesh perish.

 

[reba]

My apologies for the deviations from the point of this thread. It seems the critics - incapable of understanding the implications of the two distinct tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24, are intent upon hijacking this thread and turning the discussion to other issues.

It would be helpful if someone has a criticism of my first two posts, that they respond to the issues presented therein instead of derailing the whole thread.

Now, is there anyone who has a specific question or critique about the two tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24?

Rereading your first 2 posts Storm... Very interesting. The Scriptures seem to flow together making common sense.

I see the days of vengeance against the generation that murdered Him. ( so i dont get killed The Jewish leaders cried for His death The Romans did the deed and He GAVE His life for my sin)

I view the Cross as the center of all history. The years are of no matter ie the cross does not have to be in the center of time.. The changes that the Cross brought about IMHO are the center.

We here in the USA have been blessed, we have not a clue of persecution.
I will read again thanks for your efforts

 

[reba]

A fundamental teaching of the NT is that christians will always experience tribulation,both from satan and the world, however Jesus described a particular period of time just before His return and called it the great tribulation,Jesus was specific that He would return immediately after that period of time that had been shortened by God lest all flesh perish.

Jesus described a particular period of time just before His return and called it the great tribulation,

Please post the Scripture of Jesus saying 'the great tribulation"

 

[Sam21]

Please post the Scripture of Jesus saying 'the great tribulation"

Matt24:21 for there shall be then tribulation great such as not has been since the beginning of the world until now,no not ever shall be..29 immediately after THE tribulation of those days..they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Jesus said "great tribulation" and "the tribulation" when refering to the great tribulation, so even though Jesus did not actually say "great"on His second reference to the great tribulation, we understand that Jesus was speaking of the great tribulation because He had already established that the tribulation of which He spoke was "great". So "the tribulation" is sufficient for"the great tribulation".

 

[Lehigh3]

Matt24:21 for there shall be then tribulation great such as not has been since the beginning of the world until now,no not ever shall be..29 immediately after THE tribulation of those days..they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Jesus said "great tribulation" and "the tribulation" when refering to the great tribulation, so even though Jesus did not actually say "great"on His second reference to the great tribulation, we understand that Jesus was speaking of the great tribulation because He had already established that the tribulation of which He spoke was "great". So "the tribulation" is sufficient for"the great tribulation".

Exactly! And Matt.16:27-28 is a parallel verse.(& that's just one!) Who was Christ addressing in both passages? Jews. The end of the Mosaic age (world) - covenant.

Only one "second return." For judgment on the enemies & vindication & rewards for the saints. Those who destroy the "earth" - here meaning apostates of "Israel" Thunderings & lightnings, etc- are prophetic hyperboles to get our attention.
Rev.11:15-19,
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[reba]

The scripture aint there sam. So more twisting.. I just aint there. I thought it was for years and years. So one day i just had to say it aint there. Jesus did not say there will be THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

 

[Sam21]

The scripture aint there sam. So more twisting.. I just aint there. I thought it was for years and years. So one day i just had to say it aint there. Jesus did not say there will be THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

As you say,quote from you,"I just aint there". I explained that Jesus taught a specific period of tribulation just before His return in a way a sixth grader could understand,if you do not hear the voice of what God has said through His word then so be it. You seem like a nice person Reba,however you have let yourself be deceived by another spirit.

 

[Sinthesis]

The scripture aint there sam. So more twisting.. I just aint there. I thought it was for years and years. So one day i just had to say it aint there. Jesus did not say there will be THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

Exactly! People construct a fantastic idea of a 'The Great Tribulation' in their mind and then try to bend scripture to support that idea. I don't think they are being disingenuous, but merely deluded by a self centered outlook on eschatology.

 

[reba]

As you say,quote from you,"I just aint there". I explained that Jesus taught a specific period of tribulation just before His return in a way a sixth grader could understand,if you do not hear the voice of what God has said through His word then so be it. You seem like a nice person Reba,however you have let yourself be deceived by another spirit.

You explained what you want the Word to say it does not. Your explanation doesn't matter a hill of beans

Jesus described a particular period of time just before His return and called it the great tribulation,

Your above statement is just not so. No He did not say that, you take it to mean that but He did not say it.

 

[Sam21]

Exactly! And Matt.16:27-28 is a parallel verse.(& that's just one!) Who was Christ addressing in both passages? Jews. The end of the Mosaic age (world) - covenant.

Only one "second return." For judgment on the enemies & vindication & rewards for the saints. Those who destroy the "earth" - here meaning apostates of "Israel" Thunderings & lightnings, etc- are prophetic hyperboles to get our attention.
Rev.11:15-19,
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Luke 16:16 the LAW and the prophets were till John(John the baptist),the Mosaic age came to an end way before 70ad,any sacrifice offered after the death of Christ would have been an offense to God, so your position that Jesus spoke of the end of the Mosaic age is without any biblical reason because according to the bible the Mosaic age was long gone before 70AD. How could the Mosaic age continue after Christ fulfilled it in 33AD? The age Jesus spoke of was the age that begin with Noah after the flood and will end with the defeat of the antichrist and the casting of satan into prison.