Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

[taromina2003]

I am not Storm here are all the Scriptures have to say about antichrist.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Thank you for your response but that doesn't answer my question since you did not post any scripture from the book of revelations. What about the events in the book of revelation regarding the anti-christ do you as a pre-terest believe that GOD will give the devil domaine over earth for the period of time mentioned in the book of revelations?

 

[taromina2003]

To which "tribulation are you referring? The one in Matthew 24:9 or the one in Matthew 24:21? There are two mentioned in that chapter. The "tribulation of believers" in verse 9 is a sign of a greater tribulation that would befall Jerusalem.

The "tribulation of believers" continues to this day. The tribulation (desolation) of Jerusalem happened in 70 AD.

Therefore, if there is any rapture, as defined by traditional evangelicalism, it's definitely post-trib.

That was the point of my original two posts that started this thread.

As to the question of "Antichrist", we meet them everyday. They are everywhere and are motivated by a spirit of opposition to and hatred of the gospel. That was the point of John's epistles.

Hope this helps.

Not to be snide but it is a simple question, do you believe in the anti-Christ that is mentioned in the book of revelations? I am not a rapture theorist but it seems to me both preterests and rapture theorists both have something in common and that is the denial of ever having to do with the anti-Christ as mentioned in revelations, am I correct in this assumption?

 

[Sam21]

I did not say spiritual death. I quoted God

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But Reba, there is no where in that story where Adam died on the day he ate from the tree, if there is quote it to me. My point was that the bible right off the bat presents us with a story that does not make immediate sense. God told Adam that in the day he ate from the tree he would die,yet Adam ate from the tree and did not die until another 900 years. In order to make sense of this story PEOPLE have created the concept that Adam died a spiritual death,by creating a spiritual death they now have a way that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit. The problem is that no one even knows what "spiritual death" really is. I am not dogmatic on any of this but it makes more sense TO ME that the death God said would occur ON THAT DAY,was that Adam begin to die the moment he ate from the tree. This is an area of the bible that is not clear so people have opinions.

 

[Stormcrow]

Not to be snide but it is a simple question

Not to be snide, but I answered the question exactly as you phrased it:

Stormcrow as a pre-trib believer does that mean you do not believe that there will be an anti-Christ? I am somewhat ignorant on this whole pretrib stuff so Ijust need some better understanding of it.

I said there are many antichrists according to John's epistles. You never asked the question as you did here:

do you believe in the anti-Christ that is mentioned in the book of revelations?

Next time you'd like an answer to such a specific question, please pose it properly the first time. Not to be snide.

Now, I'm going to ask you to do something before I answer your question: please open a Bible and find me the verse in Revelation that uses the word "antichrist."

Any online Bible and concordance will do.

 

[taromina2003]

Not to be snide, but I answered the question exactly as you phrased it:


I said there are many antichrists according to John's epistles. You never asked the question as you did here:


Next time you'd like an answer to such a specific question, please pose it properly the first time. Not to be snide.

Now, I'm going to ask you to do something before I answer your question: please open a Bible and find me the verse in Revelation that uses the word "antichrist."

Any online Bible and concordance will do.

Point taken and I just assume that the "Beast" "serpent" mentioned in the book of Revelations is the ultimate anti-christ, in other words the devil himself, do you believe in the Devil and do you believe that the events in the book of revelation have already taken place and that the devil has already had his time on earth?

 

[reba]

Thank you for your response but that doesn't answer my question since you did not post any scripture from the book of revelations. What about the events in the book of revelation regarding the anti-christ do you as a pre-terest believe that GOD will give the devil domaine over earth for the period of time mentioned in the book of revelations?

Exactly the author of The Revelation did either. It isn't there.

 

[taromina2003]

Exactly the author of The Revelation did either. It isn't there.

I am talking about the Devil, the beast, the ole serpent, the ultimate anti-christ. Sorry I was so vague.;)

 

[reba]

But Reba, there is no where in that story where Adam died on the day he ate from the tree, if there is quote it to me. My point was that the bible right off the bat presents us with a story that does not make immediate sense. God told Adam that in the day he ate from the tree he would die,yet Adam ate from the tree and did not die until another 900 years. In order to make sense of this story PEOPLE have created the concept that Adam died a spiritual death,by creating a spiritual death they now have a way that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit. The problem is that no one even knows what "spiritual death" really is. I am not dogmatic on any of this but it makes more sense TO ME that the death God said would occur ON THAT DAY,was that Adam begin to die the moment he ate from the tree. This is an area of the bible that is not clear so people have opinions.

Your post shows just how little you care for the Words of God. He said it so it is. It matters not what we may think or what/how we understand God said it. That makes it so. Change the Word to suit yourself. You dont believe God you have the right not too. That is your business until you try and convince me God is not a God of Truth. What do you mean your not dogmatic? You have carried this dogma through the threads.

 

[reba]

I am talking about the Devil, the beast, the ole serpent, the ultimate anti-christ. Sorry I was so vague.;)

You where not vague Taromina. The Scriptures do not speak of an ultimate antichrist. They do not speak of THEE antichrist.

 

[Sam21]

You where not vague Taromina. The Scriptures do not speak of an ultimate antichrist. They do not speak of THEE antichrist.

I guess I never realized it until now, we are not on the same side of the line,not on the same team,however it could be said,for a long time I thought we were,just with a little different take on some things,you are not fundamental christian are you?,except for a little disagreement about "spiritual death" I am,so we are not on the same page. Besides, I could be wrong about spiritual death, that is just an opinion. There are not that many fundamental christians in this forum, no offense but what is not fundamental christian to me is probably not really christian.

 

[taromina2003]

You where not vague Taromina. The Scriptures do not speak of an ultimate antichrist. They do not speak of THEE antichrist.

So who is the Devil Reba?

 

[reba]

So who is the Devil Reba?

Not wishing to sound rude but the devil is the devil, Lucifer. I am not understanding you

 

[Stormcrow]

I just assume that the "Beast" "serpent" mentioned in the book of Revelations is the ultimate anti-christ, in other words the devil himself

First of all, don't assume anything about these issues. That's where people get into all kinds of error.

Now, there are 2 beasts, a dragon, a false prophet, and a partridge in a pear tree in Revelation. That's where they got the idea for the "12 Days of Christmas song."

(OK, I made up that last part about the partridge.) ;)

Now, since we need a program to know the players, here is the program:

Satan, played by the red dragon:

{3} Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. Revelation 12:3 (NASB)

Rome, played by the beast from the sea:

{1} And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. {2} And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. Revelation 13:1-2 (NASB)

(This is an allusion to Daniel 7:7.)

Now, this is where most people get confused:

{11} Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. {12} He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. Revelation 13:11-12 (NASB)

This beast is a man as noted Rev. 13:18. He is not Satan (the red dragon) neither is he the beast from the sea (the Roman Empire.)

{18} Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Revelation 13:18 (NASB)

Now, there has been much speculation over the past 2,000 years as to whom this man is: some have said the Pope, Hitler, even Ronald Wilson Reagan, to name a few. But there is only one man whose name matches the number of this beast:

Nero, also known as Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, and Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus.

I'm not going to copy and paste the information from this blog again, so please read the following link to understand how we know this is Nero:

The Mark Of The Beast

Nero was an antichrist, but there is no single "Antichrist" who will bring "hell on earth" for the last 3.5 years of the so-called "seven-year tribulation." That doctrine comes from a misinterpretation of several other verses pulled out of context.

That's it for now.

 

[taromina2003]

First of all, don't assume anything about these issues. That's where people get into all kinds of error.

Now, there are 2 beasts, a dragon, a false prophet, and a partridge in a pear tree in Revelation. That's where they got the idea for the "12 Days of Christmas song."

(OK, I made up that last part about the partridge.) ;)

Now, since we need a program to know the players, here is the program:

Satan, played by the red dragon:



Rome, played by the beast from the sea:



(This is an allusion to Daniel 7:7.)

Now, this is where most people get confused:

{11} Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. {12} He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. Revelation 13:11-12 (NASB)

This beast is a man as noted Rev. 13:18. He is not Satan (the red dragon) neither is he the beast from the sea (the Roman Empire.)




Now, there has been much speculation over the past 2,000 years as to whom this man is: some have said the Pope, Hitler, even Ronald Wilson Reagan, to name a few. But there is only one man whose name matches the number of this beast:

Nero, also known as Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, and Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus.

I'm not going to copy and paste the information from this blog again, so please read the following link to understand how we know this is Nero:

The Mark Of The Beast

Nero was an antichrist, but there is no single "Antichrist" who will bring "hell on earth" for the last 3.5 years of the so-called "seven-year tribulation." That doctrine comes from a misinterpretation of several other verses pulled out of context.

That's it for now.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and after doing some quick research on the web about preterists my first conclusion was pretty accurate, both preterist and rapture theorist both have in common the fact they don't believe they will be ever have to face Satan when he is thrown down on the earth since the former believes it has already happened or wont happen and the latter seem to believe they wont be around when it does happen.

I think that sums it up in a nutshell. Thank you for your opinion and time.

 

[reba]

Thank you for your thoughtful response and after doing some quick research on the web about preterists my first conclusion was pretty accurate, both preterist and rapture theorist both have in common the fact they don't believe they will be ever have to face Satan when he is thrown down on the earth since the former believes it has already happened or wont happen and the latter seem to believe they wont be around when it does happen.

I think that sums it up in a nutshell. Thank you for your opinion and time.

Where is satan now?

 

[freeway]

Not to be snide, but I answered the question exactly as you phrased it:


I said there are many antichrists according to John's epistles. You never asked the question as you did here:


Next time you'd like an answer to such a specific question, please pose it properly the first time. Not to be snide.

Now, I'm going to ask you to do something before I answer your question: please open a Bible and find me the verse in Revelation that uses the word "antichrist."

Any online Bible and concordance will do.

I just love how you try to get your point across by trying to make others look foolish about what they believe. Althought the word "anti christ" is not used in revelation does not in any way diminish the fact who the bible is talking about.. Can you, find for me the word "Trinity" in the bible. No. but we know what it means. So here is a little list of the bible talking about ..... The Anti Christ, or anti christs, like it or not.:D What I really find strange is someone who thinks Jesus came back in 70AD.. look around, I don't see him.. but oh yea its a spritiual thing. then in that case, Jesus is losing the battle here on earth.. But when he does come back and Yes he will.... The whole world will have NO doubt.. Maybe you need to study the bible a little bit more...

MAT 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and
will deceive many.

MAT 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,
'There he is!' do not believe it.

MAT 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great
signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

MAT 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go
out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

MAR 13:6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive
many.

MAR 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,
'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

MAR 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and
miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

LUK 21:8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will
come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not
follow them.

2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not
come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the
man doomed to destruction.

2TH 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God
or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming
himself to be God.

2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these
things?

2TH 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at
the proper time.

2TH 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who
now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

2TH 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will
overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his
coming.

2TH 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of
Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

2TH 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They
perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2TH 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will
believe the lie

2TH 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but
have delighted in wickedness.

1JO 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that
the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how
we know it is the last hour.

1JO 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

1JO 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This
is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even
now is already in the world.

2JO 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in
the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver
and the antichrist.

REV 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his
image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning
sulfur.

20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire.

MAT 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and
will deceive many.

MAT 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,
'There he is!' do not believe it.

MAT 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great
signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

MAT 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go
out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

MAR 13:6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive
many.

MAR 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,
'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

MAR 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and
miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

LUK 21:8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will
come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not
follow them.

2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not
come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the
man doomed to destruction.

2TH 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God
or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming
himself to be God.

2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these
things?

2TH 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at
the proper time.

2TH 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who
now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

2TH 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will
overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his
coming.

2TH 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of
Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

2TH 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They
perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2TH 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will
believe the lie

2TH 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but
have delighted in wickedness.

1JO 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that
the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how
we know it is the last hour.

1JO 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

1JO 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This
is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even
now is already in the world.

2JO 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in
the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver
and the antichrist.

REV 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his
image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning
sulfur.

20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Stormcrow]

both preterist and rapture theorist both have in common the fact they don't believe they will be ever have to face Satan when he is thrown down on the earth since the former believes it has already happened or wont happen and the latter seem to believe they wont be around when it does happen.

So much confusion. So little time to explain it all.

 

[Stormcrow]

I just love how you try to get your point across by trying to make others look foolish about what they believe.

If the shoe fits.

Althought the word "anti christ" is not used in revelation does not in any way diminish the fact who the bible is talking about.

OK, so tell me: who IS the Bible talking about??? Try to summarize it in one brief paragraph. I know the verses you just spammed the thread with, and I'm not impressed. 2

What I really find strange is someone who thinks Jesus came back in 70AD.. look around, I don't see him.. but oh yea its a spritiual thing.

Your mocking tone doesn't paint a very flattering picture of you.

then in that case, Jesus is losing the battle here on earth..

How truly little you think of Christ, His sacrifice, His glory and His kingdom. Now you're not mocking me, you're mocking Him. I'd be careful about that. 2

But when he does come back and Yes he will.... The whole world will have NO doubt..

How will anyone ever be justified then?

Maybe you need to study the bible a little bit more...

It's been my experience that people who are losing the argument resort to these kinds of ad hominem attacks. All you've shown me is that you know how to mock and paste. Thanks for the insight. 2

 

[n2thelight]

Where is satan now?

Heaven

 

[freeway]

If the shoe fits.



OK, so tell me: who IS the Bible talking about??? Try to summarize it in one brief paragraph. I know the verses you just spammed the thread with, and I'm not impressed. 2

No No please answer me first, Is trinity in the bible????? :D