pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[thethinker]

nope, all revalations in the book of revalations must be jesus. all these visions are too close to the visions of Daniel, Ezekiel and also isiah and moses. all of those which jesus said aren't of the father. therefore the son is on the throne in said visions.

Denial is not rebuttal. The One who sits upon the great white throne in chaptar 20 calls the one who overcomes "my son." Men are NOT Jesus' sons. They are His brothers.

You did NOT dealt dircectly with this point. Neither did you address chapter 5 which CLEARLY distinguishes the One who sits upon the throne from the Lamb (Christ).

1.The Lamb takes the book from the right hand of the One who sits upon the throne (verses 1-8, esp. 8).

2. The whole creation worships the One who sits upon the throne AND the Lamb.

The One who sits upon the throne is CLEARLY not Christ. Again, the One who sits upon the great white throne calls the overcomer "my son." This is the Father. You have been misinformed.

 

[jasoncran]

ok fine.

seen? really what is seen then by the prophets here?

Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake

and lets compare this john's vision shall we ? for these are almost the same!

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

now then in the tanach the LORD there is the YHWH, since that is I shall go into what moses saw at horeb next post

 

[jasoncran]

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen

what did moses see then? the YHWH or the son?

jesus said that no man hath seen the father nor his shape. so I ask what did the prophets I listed see. I haven't included Daniel or isiah. and also what moses saw at horeb fully.

 

[thethinker]

How can that be? John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

You missed verse 21. Both the Father and the Son participate in the judgment. The idea in verse 22 is that the Son is the mediating judge.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Who are we speaking of here? Compare Rev 1:4 “Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come.”

I agree that this is Christ. But it says NOTHING about Him sitting upon a throne. In 5:1-8 He takes the scroll out of the right hand of the One who sits upon the throne. Therefore, Christ is NOT the One who sits upon the throne. It's plain!

Next let’s add Isa 9:6-7 “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." Isn’t this Jesus ruling?

Thanks.

First, I hope that you are not suggesting that Jesus is the Father. This would be a denial of the Trinity. Some translations render it, "author of eternity." Second, it is indeed Jesus ruling, but mediatorally.

There is no verse in the Revelation that identifies Christ as the One who sits upon the throne.

 

[jasoncran]

remember that jesus is coequal and coeternal In the trinity. that doesn't negate that father isn't seen in the visions if they knew by visions that the YHWH was the father they would have asked jesus show us the father!

 

[thethinker]

He Judges from His throne on Earth.

No! The Revelation says that at the harvest He thrusts His sickle while sitting upon a cloud (Rev. 14:14-16). The harvest is the judgment. Therefore, He judges while sitting upon a cloud. It seems that no one here wants to deal with this.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32

1.It is actually His Father's throne. He sits upon it as mediator. Christ is a mediatoral king as His father David. David's throne was God's throne (1 Kings 2:12;1 Chronicles 29:23). So, Christ's throne is God's throne.

2. The Revelation doesn't deal with Christ's session upon a throne. It says that He takes the scroll out of the right hand of the One who sits upon the throne (5:1-8). Therefore, Christ is NOT the One who sits upon the throne.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, John 5:22

You missed verse 21. The Father and the Son are both involved in the judgment. But the Son is the mediatoral judge.

Jesus Christ comes to earth at the end of the age to gather His people at the resurrection and Rapture.

What!! Paul said that they are caught up to meet Him in the air. He says NOTHING about Christ coming to earth. He says only that He descends from heaven, and that He catches up His people to meet Him in the air.

 

[thethinker]

remember that jesus is coequal and coeternal In the trinity. that doesn't negate that father isn't seen in the visions if they knew by visions that the YHWH was the father they would have asked jesus show us the father!

Yes, Jesus is indeed co-equal in the Trinity. But we must be true to the language the scripture uses. Revelation 5 says that Jesus takes the scroll from the hand of the One sits upon the throne. Therefore, Jesus is NOT the one who sits upon the throne, and the Revelation says NOTHING about Him sitting upon a throne.

Moreover, though Jesus is equal to the Father in substance and nature, He is subordinate to the Father as mediator. Paul said that when Christ returns He will deliver the kingdom back to His Father and Himself become subject. Paul said that this occurs at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:25-28).

 

[jasoncran]

if jesus isnt on the throne then me moses saw the father then and jesus lied when he said no man hath seen the father nor his form.. yet the prophet see what john sees. Ezekiel see what on the throne? the father or the son? YOU tell me. I have posted one of three vision that are similar to that vision of john. zeke is the most descriptive.

one will find that when looks at the trinity, no doctrine can full grasp it and get it right. it all fails. welcome to that club. god doesn't want us to sit around looking for some vision of him but to really"see " him by doing what jesus did!

"ask not me to see the father , for if ye have seen me you HAVE seen me" ok what did jesus do then? he did what? good works and winning souls and loving the lost. we all do that, and when we become like jesus we will then "see" god. that my friend is what I call a very jewish thought.

 

[thethinker]

remember that jesus is coequal and coeternal In the trinity. that doesn't negate that father isn't seen in the visions if they knew by visions that the YHWH was the father they would have asked jesus show us the father!

Yes, Jesus is indeed equal to the Father in essence and nature, But He is subordinate as mediator. At the resurrection He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and Himself become subject. Paul said that His reign ENDS at the resurrection 1 Cor. 15:254-28). Albert Barnes says that this is the "common interpretation of all time." Therefore, Premillennialism is FALSE.

 

[jasoncran]

well im bowing out. its fine to disagree, but when I post plain scripture contrary to that position I will not feed this anymore. funny a few weeks ago an elder and I had this very conversation. this man has a master in divinity and has years of pastoring and isnt so high minded that he cant reach the lost, he said most in this church take your position. until recently I myself would but I had to look into that last book to see what the visions were.
he also taught theology. he isnt a chump. if I was wrong he would have told me.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, Jesus is indeed equal to the Father in essence and nature, But He is subordinate as mediator. At the resurrection He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and Himself become subject. Paul said that His reign ENDS at the resurrection 1 Cor. 15:254-28). Albert Barnes says that this is the "common interpretation of all time." Therefore, Premillennialism is FALSE.

im amil. like barnes I also believe jesus reigns now.

unless you can show me that the YHWH is the father, which you cant.

in the tanach its said

the earth and the fullness thereof is mine,
heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. so how can the YHWH reign and then lost it?

 

[thethinker]

well im bowing out. its fine to disagree, but when I post plain scripture contrary to that position I will not feed this anymore. funny a few weeks ago an elder and I had this very conversation. this man has a master in divinity and has years of pastoring and isnt so high minded that he cant reach the lost, he said most in this church take your position. until recently I myself would but I had to look into that last book to see what the visions were.
he also taught theology. he isnt a chump. if I was wrong he would have told me.

I am also an educated man. Just sayin....

 

[jasoncran]

I am also an educated man. Just sayin....

the YHWH cant be the father, if he was then show me that He is the father.

it should be plainly said. the jews call the YHWH the ruler of the universe. the father of man. so how can that be? they quote much the same. the jews never saw god as not be being a king over them. they just see the moshiac as some king like david who is used by good to reign over them . god had other plans and took human form. they missed that.

 

[JLB]

No! The Revelation says that at the harvest He thrusts His sickle while sitting upon a cloud (Rev. 14:14-16). The harvest is the judgment. Therefore, He judges while sitting upon a cloud. It seems that no one here wants to deal with this.

1.It is actually His Father's throne. He sits upon it as mediator. Christ is a mediatoral king as His father David. David's throne was God's throne (1 Kings 2:12;1 Chronicles 29:23). So, Christ's throne is God's throne.

2. The Revelation doesn't deal with Christ's session upon a throne. It says that He takes the scroll out of the right hand of the One who sits upon the throne (5:1-8). Therefore, Christ is NOT the One who sits upon the throne.

You missed verse 21. The Father and the Son are both involved in the judgment. But the Son is the mediatoral judge.

What!! Paul said that they are caught up to meet Him in the air. He says NOTHING about Christ coming to earth. He says only that He descends from heaven, and that He catches up His people to meet Him in the air.

When He returns to Judge, He sits upon His Throne on Earth as The King of the Earth to rule and Judge.

Read the scripture and stop ignoring what it says.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.Matthew 25:31-32

When He comes...

The nations will be gathered before Him.

He will judge them from His Throne on Earth.

This event takes place on earth, not in Heaven.

All judgement has been given to Christ Jesus.

as it is written -

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "
Revelation 3:21-22

 

[Eugene]

You missed verse 21. Both the Father and the Son participate in the judgment. The idea in verse 22 is that the Son is the mediating judge.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

I agree that this is Christ. But it says NOTHING about Him sitting upon a throne. In 5:1-8 He takes the scroll out of the right hand of the One who sits upon the throne. Therefore, Christ is NOT the One who sits upon the throne. It's plain!

First, I hope that you are not suggesting that Jesus is the Father. This would be a denial of the Trinity. Some translations render it, "author of eternity." Second, it is indeed Jesus ruling, but mediatorally.
Hi Thinker,

There is no verse in the Revelation that identifies Christ as the One who sits upon the throne.

When Jesus is on His own throne He has taken that all power and authority given Him in Matthew 28: 18.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Who is this?
Rev 4:8 And they sang . . "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Who are they singing this to?

I believe you might be referring to the following scripture talking of things post millennium. During Christ's thousand year reign, Jesus will be ruling with all that given Him by our Father.
1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus is on His own throne He has taken that all power and authority given Him in Matthew 28: 18.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Who is this?
Rev 4:8 And they sang . . "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Who are they singing this to?

I believe you might be referring to the following scripture talking of things post millennium. During Christ's thousand year reign, Jesus will be ruling with all that given Him by our Father.
1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8


The Lord Jesus.


JLB

 

[JLB]

... that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:23

 

[thethinker]

I believe you might be referring to the following scripture talking of things post millennium. During Christ's thousand year reign, Jesus will be ruling with all that given Him by our Father.

1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

On what do you base your assertion that Jesus "will be" (future tense) ruling? First, Paul used no future tense verbs in reference to Christ's reigning. He said, "He must reign until...." Second, Paul was referring to that reign of Christ which began when He ascended to the right hand of God, and which should continue until all His enemies are destroyed. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is DEATH. Then Christ yields the kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject.

How can Christ begin His reign at some future time when at the resurrection the LAST enemy is destroyed and Christ Himself becomes subject? And how can satan or any other enemy appear after the so called millennium when are ALL enemies are destroyed at the resurrection which is BEFORE the millennium?

 

[JLB]

On what do you base your assertion that Jesus "will be" (future tense) ruling? First, Paul used no future tense verbs in reference to Christ's reigning. He said, "He must reign until...." Second, Paul was referring to that reign of Christ which began when He ascended to the right hand of God, and which should continue until all His enemies are destroyed. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is DEATH. Then Christ yields the kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject.

How can Christ begin His reign at some future time when at the resurrection the LAST enemy is destroyed and Christ Himself becomes subject? And how can satan or any other enemy appear after the so called millennium when are ALL enemies are destroyed at the resurrection which is BEFORE the millennium?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5


JLB

 

[Eugene]

On what do you base your assertion that Jesus "will be" (future tense) ruling?

On what do you base your assertion that Jesus "will be" (future tense) ruling?[/quote]

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. We haven’t seen this happen, we don’t see our last enemy death swallowed up in victory. This chapter is talking of the Last Trump.

I just read JLB’s response before this and it too can refer to nothing but the end. I reckon we must just be convinced in our own hearts.