Pre-Tribulation Rapture discussion.

[sheshisown]

Howdy gents~

Just for clarification, awaken, we now literally SEE that Vic will keep to his word, no matter how much he (himself) chomps at the bit. He is a great admin, the BOMB!

The weird part of this anxiousness to input an opposing view from my POV is... why?

I don't know about you two, but the sweet fellowship in agreement in heart is absolutely marvelous! It's like fresh air on the net! We ought to can it, and sell it, right now the economy could use the lift!

Sooooo... oh well. on we go! :biglol

Thanks jsbdpmc for your encouraging words... I actually have some interesting things to add to this idea about more than one rapture too! It does not come from the same scriptures or in the manner you have detailed, but I clearly see more than one rapture too, first fruits, awaken, OH YES!!! WHOA! Is that like~ the Holy Spirit teaching us all the same things or what? :D I like it...

I have a strong desire instilling to write a little poetry about the definition you listed in your post jsbdpmc... may our Lord give me the time!

I will add more manana~ after my algebra test, ugh!

In the rapt attention He quickens us to... bonnie :shades

 

[awaken]

I shared the Matthew and Mark scriptures to get to this difference....

Matthew and Mark:

The Jews should flee Jerusalem when the "abomination" is set up in the temple.

It will be a unique period of time in which there will be great distress such as the world has never seen before and will never see again, which will be so terrible that no-one would survive if God had not cut this time period short.

There will be false Christs and false prophets.

No mention of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

No mention of Jerusalem's destruction.

No mention of the prophetic fulfillment of Jerusalem's punishment.

No mention of the Jews being scattered to the nations.

No mention of Jerusalem being trampled on by Gentiles.



Luke:

The Jews should flee when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

Jerusalem's destruction is near.

It will be the fulfillment of the prophesied time of punishment (for example, Jerusalem's destruction was prophesied in Daniel 9:26).

The Jews will be scattered to the nations.

Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles.

No mention of the "abomination."

No mention of a unique period of time.

No mention of false Christs and false prophets.


We can see that there are a number of differences between those passages, so now let's compare the Matthew and Mark passages with the Luke passage and list the similarities between them:

Matthew and Mark:

Flee Jerusalem and go to the mountains when something happens, which will be dreadful for pregnant women and nursing mothers.



Luke:

Flee Jerusalem and go to the mountains when something happens, which will be dreadful for pregnant women and nursing mothers.


As we can see, the only thing which the Luke passage has in common with the Matthew and Mark passages is that the Jews should flee Jerusalem, which will be difficult for certain people. The rest of the context in those passages indicates that there will be two different times when the Jews should flee Jerusalem. When we look at the Luke passage (Luke 21:20-24), we can see that it was fulfilled when the Christian Jews fled Jerusalem after the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem in approximately 66 A.D. The Matthew and Mark passages, on the other hand, will be fulfilled when "the abomination that causes desolation" is set up in the future Jewish temple at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation (at which time the Antichrist will begin a terrible persecution of the Jews, which is why Jesus told them to flee Jerusalem).

Notice that Jesus was talking to His disciples in the Matthew and Mark passages, yet they will not be alive when the "abomination" is set up in the future Jewish temple (because the disciples died long ago). Therefore, when Jesus used the word "you" He was referring to the people who will be alive during the Tribulation.

 

[researcher]

But, a lot of Christians were killed and tortured so, I'd have to say it was post trib, pre-wrath.

While I may agree, I promised Bonnie this would be a discussion on pre tribulation. Thanks for understanding, researcher.

Maybe you'd like to start a post trib/pre wrath or a no trib/pre wrath thread. Then I might join in too. :D

Lol. Hey Vic! :D My bad! I didn't know the posties and prebies were kept separated for their own safety, LOL. :D Probably a good thing though! :D

A no-trib topic sounds perfect. I may just have to start one! :D

Jeff

 

[sheshisown]

Oh my... Awaken~

Would you mind if I ask my pastor about this insight you just shared? Your comparison of the Luke and Mark gospel accounts of the Tribulation that is, I have not seen this before at all and really want to look into it. :yes

:D bonnie

 

[awaken]

Oh my... Awaken~

Would you mind if I ask my pastor about this insight you just shared? Your comparison of the Luke and Mark gospel accounts of the Tribulation that is, I have not seen this before at all and really want to look into it. :yes

:D bonnie

sure, because if I have been led wrong..I would love to know.

 

[awaken]

Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-28

"Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30)

"But in those days, following that distress, 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." (Mark 13:24-26)

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:25-28)

In these passages, the expressions "Immediately after the distress of those days" and "following that distress" indicate the timing of when these things will happen. Jesus was saying that immediately after the seven-year Tribulation period there will be cataclysms and complete darkness and then the whole world will see Jesus coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. Here Jesus answered the disciples' second question (about the sign of His coming). Since these passages say that Jesus' coming will be after the Tribulation period, this "coming" is the Second Coming when Jesus will return to the earth and kill the Antichrist and his armies. For example, Matthew 24:27-28 (above) describes vultures gathering on the dead bodies after the Second Coming.

At this point, Jesus had answered all three of the disciples' questions, and then He began giving us more information about the end-times.

 

[awaken]

The one taken and left happens in the Post-trib scene (like the flood), not seven years or 3 1/2 years earlier. What Math 24:32-51 is saying is destruction shall come upon the whole world, but before it happens, some will be caught up as Noah was caught up and rescued from the great tribulation that came upon the whole earth in his day (the flood). This catching up or rapture happens immediately prior to the 7 year great tribulation. Judgement begins at the house of God - and the rapture is God's judgement on his Bride. It is as if He's saying "You have made yourselves pure, and have no spot or wrinkle, and have made yourself ready, so I am going to rescue you from the tribulation.". However the rest of the Church (the woman mentioned in Rev 12:5), the ones who were not ready (one left in the field, the other taken), and had to go out and buy oil for their lamps, entered into the tribulation where she had to be martyred or take the mark of the beast. The World Gov't annihilated the church by the end of the first 3 1/2 years of the the 7 year tribulation . (Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.)

I just wanted to address this picture in the Old testament about end times. Noah....

We forget that Enoch was translated before the flood. Noah represents those that will not take the mark of the beast. The unbelievers will be the ones destroyed with the wrath of God(flood). There will be trib. saints that will go into the 1000 year reign with Christ that will populate the earth. This is who Noah represents(trib. saints) ...Just a thought!

 

[sheshisown]

Hello~

Okay... types in the bible of Pre-Tribulation rapture...

Point number 8)

Since you are already into Noah I will share what I have learned about him.

What about Noah? See Noah went thru the tribulation of the flood, safely by the power of the Lord. Some who believe in Mid, Post, or other views say that God will allow His people (us who believe) to go thru the tribulation and protect them though it… like He did with Noah…

Hmmmm.....

I don’t know about that, again, this is a God that allows His church who have Jesus living inside us~ to bear the anger of God the Father. (?) Even a momentary span of judgement from God placed on His believers is not the gospel. From my understanding of the cross of Christ, His work was completely suffcient. There is no need for further judgement on the church, Jesus' bride... Otherwise, Christ did not recieve the FULL judgement of God. Christ's work was not enuf, we are still looking to a work thru Tribulation in us to purify us fully? (persecution by satan, firey hail stones falling around us, stars falling onto the earth while we live here, demons released to torment humanity all around us) to finish the work of redemption?
Rather, we accept it as absolutely satisfying all of God's judgement.

So... I see Noah as a picture of the Jewish nation of the 144 thousand who are used as preachers of righteousness and are uniquely sealed as they believe in the Lord during the tribulation and protected thru the tribulation. Why?

Because Jesus said, “as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be†Matthew 24:37. In other words, the conditions of the world before the coming of Jesus will be like the conditions of the world before the flood:
Exploding population (Genesis 6:1)
Sexual perversion (Genesis 6:2)
Demonic activity (Genesis 6:2)
Constant evil in the heart of man (Genesis 6:5)
Widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11)

Sounds pretty familiar doesn't it? :o

"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Genesis 6:11-13

Because of the corruption and violence on the earth, and the extent of the corruption, God told Noah that He would judge the wicked along with the earth. We (the Lord's children by faith in Jesus) are never considered wicked. Because the righteousness of Jesus Christ has been imputed to us by grace thru faith! :D

2 Peter 2:5 Also says; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Like Noah, these 144,000 will be raised up to preach the righteousness of salvation, and many will be saved. These men will be God’s mouthpiece once the church is taken up and removed. God has His witness(es) in every generation...

Also Noah was sealed (shut up) in the ark safely while God brought the flood upon the world of the ungodly . Just as these men are uniquely sealed and protected from the terrors of the Tribulation. One really good thing about Pre-Tribulation rapture theology... we do not need to symbolize God's word. It may be gratefully accepted just as it stands, literally. :nod

Then a new entity in God’s fore-ordained plan will be brought to faith in Christ at that time, the Tribulation believer, these are somehow different from the church today in grace, prior to the tribulation. It would be good to look into these saints separately since they have a unique place in the Tribulation I think. :nod

Now let’s look at the generation before Noah, we see Enoch who IS an example of the present day church... :yes

Genesis 5: Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

See he was snatched out~ BEFORE~ God’s wrath was poured out on the ungodly, for he walked with God and was no more, FOR GOD TOOK HIM. Oh YEAH!

He was snatched up, Why? Enoch walked with God: Walking with God means walking by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7), walking in the light (1 John 1:5-7), and walking in agreement with God (Amos 3:3). After walking like this with God, it is as if one day God told Enoch, “You don’t need to walk home. Why don’t you just come home with Me?â€Â

Se also, Enoch fathered a son named Methuselah, whose name means, "when he dies he shall send". When Methuselah died, what did God send? The flood… :crazy At the birth of Methuselah, Enoch had a special awareness from God that judgment was coming, and this was one of the things that got him closer in his walk with God.

Jude 1:14 also tells us Enoch was a prophet; even from his vantage point long ago, he could see the second coming of Jesus Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly . . ..

Yes my brothers Jesus is coming soon... Got more on this subject brothers? Post away!!! :biglaugh

I need all the solid exegesis I can read from God's men these last days...bonnie :shades

 

[awaken]

Another point to make about Enoch...some say that he was only one man while the church are many. But we have to remember that we are the body of Christ...members that make up the one!

 

[awaken]

jsbdpmc...I am still trying to get through your post...a lot of meat there!

I would like to discuss the manchild in Rev.12..

Are you saying that the manchild is not Jesus?
The woman is she not the Jews/Israel?

vs. 5 says that the man child would rule all nations with a rod of iron...I thought this was Jesus, that came from the Jews??

In Gen.37 in Joseph dream...vs 9 the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisanse to me..then in vs. 10 Jacob implied that He and Joseph's mother were the sun and the moon, and his brethren the stars.

Israel will flee to the wilderness/ being the woman.

Could the manchild be the body of Jesus/bride?

 

[jsbdpmc]

awaken: The manchild is a topic of great interest and great importance in the end times. But since it is a different topic from the pre-trib rapture I will open up a new string called "Who is the Manchild of Rev 12:5? Part 1"

 

[sheshisown]

Well~

I do not wish to waste this threads opportunity to be pertinant, so I will add more to the list of proofs later...

Thought this video with Shadows3n and their songs would remind us just how horrible (probably worse really) the Tribulation will be...

[youtube:1c4760gm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVyC0FmCUm8[/youtube:1c4760gm]


An escapee by the grace of God... bonnie :D

 

[awaken]

The apostle Paul said. He said that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52), but what did he mean by that?


1. "At the Last Trumpet": Background information concerning trumpets

Throughout history, armies have used trumpets to signal "Advance," "Retreat," "Commence Firing," "Cease Firing," "Assemble," "Recall," and so on. Here are some examples:
"Signal musicians [who were] used as an integral part of a military organization appear first in the Roman Legion. These musicians, called aenatores, utilized a wide variety of trumpets, and signals were sounded on these instruments which the Romans inherited from the Etruscans. The Etruscans were superb metallurgists and smiths, and must have been skilled in the making of bronze or silver trumpets. A collection of forty-three signals were used in the Roman Army." (History of the Bugle , emphasis added)

"Their times also for sleeping and watching and rising are notified beforehand by the sound of trumpets, nor is any thing done without such a signal; and in the morning the soldiery go every one to their centurions, and these centurions to their tribunes, to salute them; with whom all the superior officers go to the general of the whole army, who then gives them of course the watchword and other orders, to be by them carried to all that arc under their command; which is also observed when they go to fight, and thereby they turn themselves about on the sudden, when there is occasion for making sallies, as they come back when they are recalled, in crowds also." (Roman Imperial armies and camps, as described by Josephus , emphasis added)

"The notes of the instruments could be heard above the din of battle much more clearly than the orders of the officers. On the march the standard was at the front, in battle near the rear, of the maniple. From the immediate association of the manipular standards with military movements arose several idiomatic expressions. Such are: signa inferre, 'to advance;' signa referre, 'to retreat;' signa convertere, 'to face about;' signa efferre, 'to leave camp;' ad signa convenire, 'to assemble.'" (The Roman Art of War in Caesar's Time , emphasis added)

The ancient Jews also used trumpets in battle and for assembling:
"The LORD said to Moses: "Make two trumpets of hammered silver, and use them for calling the community together and for having the camps set out. When both are sounded, the whole community is to assemble before you at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. If only one is sounded, the leaders--the heads of the clans of Israel--are to assemble before you. When a trumpet blast is sounded, the tribes camping on the east are to set out. At the sounding of a second blast, the camps on the south are to set out. The blast will be the signal for setting out. To gather the assembly, blow the trumpets, but not with the same signal. The sons of Aaron, the priests, are to blow the trumpets. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you and the generations to come. When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies."" (Numbers 10:1-9)

"Now all the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples joined forces and crossed over the Jordan and camped in the Valley of Jezreel. Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him. He sent messengers throughout Manasseh, calling them to arms, and also into Asher, Zebulun and Naphtali, so that they too went up to meet them." (Judges 6:33-35)

"Abner called out to Joab, "Must the sword devour forever? Don't you realize that this will end in bitterness? How long before you order your men to stop pursuing their brothers?" Joab answered, "As surely as God lives, if you had not spoken, the men would have continued the pursuit of their brothers until morning." So Joab blew the trumpet, and all the men came to a halt; they no longer pursued Israel, nor did they fight anymore." (2 Samuel 2:26-28)

"Then Joab sounded the trumpet, and the troops stopped pursuing Israel, for Joab halted them." (2 Samuel 18:16)

"Then the woman went to all the people with her wise advice, and they cut off the head of Sheba son of Bicri and threw it to Joab. So he sounded the trumpet, and his men dispersed from the city, each returning to his home. And Joab went back to the king in Jerusalem." (2 Samuel 20:22)
Trumpets were also used by the Jews for rejoicing and praising the Lord, as in the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Trumpets:

"Every morning of the feast [of Tabernacles] there was a joyous procession to the Pool of Siloam, with music, headed by a priest with a golden pitcher (a little over 2 pints). At the same time there was a procession to the Kidron Valley to collect willow branches which were made into a canopy over the altar of burnt offerings. As the sacrifice proceeded, the priest returning with the water entered through the Water Gate (named for this event). With a threefold trumpet blast he poured the water into a silver receptacle on the altar. ... At the end of the first day of Tabernacles, the worshippers congregated in the Court of Women where a great illumination took place. Four huge golden lamps or candelabras, each with four golden bowls were filled with oil by four youths of priestly descent. They had to use four ladders for this task. According to the saying, "There was not a court in Jerusalem that was not lit up by it". Around the lamps a sacred dance was conducted by hassidim (saints) and prominent leaders with flaming torches in their hands. This was accompanied by Levites playing harps, lutes, cymbals, trumpets and "instruments without number" standing on the fifteen steps leading up from the Court of Women to the Court of Israel, according to the "songs of Degrees" in Psalms." (Sukkot - the Feast of Tabernacles , emphasis added)

"Sukkot (Tabernacles), along with Shavuot (Pentecost), and Passover (Pesach), were known as the pilgrimage festivals (Deuteronomy 16:16). There would be a signal and the priests would step out with their left foot, and then step to the right, swinging the willows back and forth. Meanwhile, a third group of priests, headed by the high priest (Cohen HaGadol), went out the gate known as the Water Gate. They had gone to the pool known as "Siloam" (John [Yochanan] 9:7,11), which means "gently flowing waters." There the high priest had a golden vase and drew the water known as the living water (mayim hayim) and held it in the vase. His assistant held a silver vase containing wine. Just as the priests in the valley of Motzah began to march toward Jerusalem (Yerushalayim), so did the priests in Siloam. As they marched toward the city of Jerusalem (Yerushalayim), the willows made a swishing sound in the wind as they approached the city. The word wind in Hebrew is Ruach. The word spirit in Hebrew is also Ruach. Therefore, this ceremony was symbolic or representative of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) of G-d coming upon the city of Jerusalem (Yerushalayim). As each of the party reached their respective gates, a trumpet (shofar) was blown." (Sukkot The Feast of Tabernacles , emphasis added)

""Say to the Israelites: 'On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts [the Feast of Trumpets]. Do no regular work, but present an offering made to the LORD by fire.'" The LORD said to Moses, "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the LORD by fire."" (Leviticus 23:24-27)

"Also at your times of rejoicing--your appointed feasts and New Moon festivals--you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God." (Numbers 10:10)

As we can see, the first-century Romans and Jews used trumpet blasts for a variety of purposes.

 

[jsbdpmc]

Numbers 10:2 talks about 2 silver trumpets. Silver means redemption, or salvation. The first trumpet sounds for the kings and priests, and the second sounds for everyone else. This is the only place in the bible where these two silver trumpets are mentioned. It is interesting to note that all the other trumpets mentioned in the bible are shofars, or rams horns. The obvious conclusion is that these 2 silver trumpets point to God’s two redemptive resurrections. The first one which is for the Bride of Christ, and the second one, at the Great White Throne Judgment, is for everyone else.

 

[sheshisown]

The controversial 2 Thes. chapter 2...

Hi fellow escapees in Christ!

I used to have difficulty with 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. Because it seemed to say so clearly that certain things… including the arrival of anti-christ and the abomination of desolation… the anti-christ’s defiling of the temple of Israel would come first BEFORE the rapture.

But not any longer, as a matter of fact, now this scripture only serves to back up the Pre-Trib view of rapture and makes it even stronger than before in my understanding. :D

Okay a little historical background I think is necessary…

Paul had only three weeks with the Thessalonians, and he spent that time teaching them about prophecy. Inspired by the Holy Spirit and by the heart of Christ~ he schooled them in (end-times) bible prophecy.

Hmmm… I wonder why?

Maybe it is partly because 27% of the Bible deals with Bible prophecy… I believe Paul was wise and wanted to give them a good solid understanding about a subject that was pertinent to their time. We see in this in this second letter he writes to them, that they had been attacked for their dependence on the word that the rapture was yet to come. Paul is clearing up their confusion in this letter.
Besides, almost a third of the word or God is prophecy, and every single prophecy concerning the Lord Jesus’ first coming was literally full-filled, so the Thessalonians (like us) were to expect it’s literal fulfillment, and it’s eminency!

There are 774,770 words in bible, and one word so comforts me (especially in this mess of a world we are living in, and headed for today) that word is Maranantha… and I believe the Thessalonian Christians took heart and courage to endure by these precious words of the Lord’s SOON return!

There are 300 plus prophecies in the OT of the Lord Jesus Christ’ first coming… and many teachers, and rabbis, and writers, said it is not to be taken literally. These prophecies were said to be only allegorical, or figurative, or symbolic. However, every single one of these hundreds of prophecies literally happened! Jesus really was:

*Born of virgin
*In Bethlehem
*Of the house of David
*Crucified
*Stripped for our transgressions
*Bruised for our iniquities
*Buried in a rich man’s tomb
*Rose again on the third day
*Ascended to heaven
*Is seated on the throne of God
And on this list could and does go..................................................................... :nod

So we move ahead with the (literal interpretation) of scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2…

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1+2

So if all the prophecies were literally fulfilled of his first coming then we can trust that our God who is the same yesterday and today and tomorrow will fulfill every prophecy literally.

In the Post Trib view, we the church, will go thru the tribulation, all of it... described in chapters 6-19. :verysad In the Mid-Trib view we will go through about half of it.

No… In a Pre Trib view rapture we leave before the tribulation begins... But how do we know this? I have started to list 18 reasons why is the Pre Trib rapture view is the only one that allows us to say it could be today. At any time, it is eminent! So have hope, and take heart.

Some background… Paul taught the Thessalonians about the rapture, the end times, future things. But between the time of first and second letters of Paul they were told that you missed it, it happened already! Oh golly~ that would be BAD NEWS indeed! Why? Because some of them (the believing family of Christ) had died. . . They got to go, you did not was the teaching.

…Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him: This clearly speaks of the rapture…
That is such GOOD NEWS, then Paul adds this. That you be not soon shaken... not easily shaken in mind, by spirit, by word, or by letter… Paul was saying, don’t get shook up about this. by spirit Some in their own fellowship were giving utterances (verbal prophecies) that were not true that their chance to be with the body taken suddenly up was already gone! by word Also, this doctrine was being taught, by those who were allowed to teach in their fellowship. HUH? Oh yeah, how soon the enemy comes in to steal our confidence if he can. And last, by letter, as if from us WOW~ somebody had even forged a letter from Paul, that said so sad too bad~ you missed it guys, you are going to face the horrible tribulation now!

Books are still being written today… But Paul warned, Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

That day~ the day they were all expecting, the day of Jesus’ return, will not come unless there be a falling away first, an apostasy is what the King James version states it as.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is where the controversy is… Paul told them... you did not miss the rapture because there has to be (something first) and then the anti-christ will be revealed and then the following things will happen…

Now, so far~ I hope~ most can track with me on this. ;)

But here is where the Pre-Trib rapture view differs greatly. Many say that the anti-christ must go to the temple before the rapture. Naw… :bigfrown

That day will not come except ….the falling away comes first?
The word for falling away is apostacia, which is used twice in the NT as a noun, here and in Acts 21:21. When Paul was met by the elders, who told him he was being accused that he was teaching the church to depart from Moses, and from the Jewish customs. At one time, they stood in this position of having their children circumcised, and now they were no longer to follow the shadow of circumcision enacted in the flesh, by the letter of the law, now they were to be circumcised in heart and in mind. Paul had to straighten this out. In these two places the word apostasy is used as a noun.

But the word apostasy is also used 15 times in verb form, 13 times it means to depart physically ,from a group of people, from a geographical region, in leaving a sickness behind, all are in the verb form.

KEY CONCEPT! In the Greek this word can speak of either leaving a faith (apostasy) or it can mean leaving physically departing.

Liddell and Scotts Greek Lexicon is an authority of Greek usage and gives us this definition of this word, either of departure or defection.

Kenneth “Weist Word Studiesâ€Â, of the Moody Bible College, was a most articulate Greek scholar. You can find his studies online. He renders this word in both definitions. A defection, or a departure.

So if this word does not mean a falling away from the faith, but a departing, then who is departing? Us! Christians! This is the snatching up, the rapture, a catching up of Christians!

And NOTICE this is BEFORE the anti-christ comes along. Using this cefinition the passage reads…
“…for that Day will not come unless the (departure) comes first,â€Â

What makes the usage of this word even more certain to Pre-Tribulation rapture believers~ is that this departure MUST take place first and foremost! And then the man of sin will be revealed. Then the abomination of desolation takes place. These other certain prophecies that take place mid-tribulation cannot come UNTIL the rapture does! COOL!

Now let’s take a look at the traditional church view…

We know the Thessalonians believed that Jesus’ return was eminent that is what they were worried about. They had even been decieved into thinking they had MISSED it!

So what do the great theologians say out of our Christian heritage?

The first seven English translations of bible phrased it as departure…

The very first English translation was from Wickliffe in 1384, his translation used the word departure… Tyndale came next in 1526, he used the word departure. Then Cloverdale in 1535 also rendered it departure. Cranmer in 1539 reiterated, departure. Breaches in 1576 as did The Besa Bible in 1583 and the famous Geneva Bible which many in Covenant Theology esteem, and the pilgrims used, produced in 1608, and defined this word DEPARTURE!
Finally, the change came when the King James 1611 version translated it “a falling awayâ€Â, with the assumption that it was understood as a departure, and if you read any of the commentaries of that time you see it over and over again.

Now, later translations have come along and see it as a falling away from the faith, a defection.

But still, Dr. Weist and Lyndale Scott, say it is a physical departure…

Except there come A falling away. Also, it is important to look at the whole wording, there is a definite article used before the word departure. A DEPARTURE, speaks of an event that will happen in the future. Not just apostasy we do not say A apostasy but we do say, A departure.
This was a known event, not a general event. In Greek, there would be no need for the definite article unless Paul is driving home what he is saying; Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? Since he was already speaking to them of the rapture, of his previous reference to the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, this is the previous KNOWN event he means!

Second key to understanding …

IF this word IS apostasy why would Paul be warning them of its future occurrence? Why would he talk of it as a future event? Apostasy was already rampant in the church, look at these scriptures. Acts 20:27-32, 1 Timothy 4:1-5, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 2 Peter 2:1-3, and Jude verses 3-4, and 17-21. Apostasy was not a future event, it was definitely a current one (Just as it is in the church today).

***The order of events falls beautifully into the sequence that Paul wrote it in, with no twisting of sentence structure needed to see what Paul means if we take the word as departure…

1) for that Day will not come unless the (departure) comes first
2) and the man of sin is revealed,
3) the son of perdition … sits as God in the temple of God…
4) you (the Thessalonians) know what is restraining, that he (anti-christ) may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Who is the One who prevents the surfacing of anti Christ?

The Holy Spirit in the believers… we are the light of the world we are the SALT of the world. Salt keeps thing pure, makes meat and other foods impossible to spoil. :yes

It is the work of the church by the power of the Holy Spirit which is keeping anti-christ at bay today! We (by the Spirit) keep evil in check, I have evidence of that in my college classes almost every day!
YES, we live in a depraved, crude, culture, right now… But when church is no longer here~ when the great hindering force of God’s Spirit is no longer hindering. :rolling Then iniquity will abound.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
God would never take the Holy Spirit from any believer, the Lord Jesus promised us He would never leave us, He would never forsake us. It is by the Holy Spirit that we are indwelled by Christ Jesus. THEN only after we are safely out of the Evil Ones way we see what God will do to His, and our, enemy.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. OH HAPPY DAY!

NOW LOOK AT IT NOW IN ORDER… JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN…

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

See this passage now makes the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view very clear!

Last of all...

Am I wrong? If so, then I am guilty of the following.

I was taught by my well beloved Pastor Keith...

Never sacrifice what you know on the altar of what you do not know!

The bottom line is this, Jesus said watch for My coming, be ready…

So even if this verse still was troublesome to me, which it no longer is… Praise God!

As Christians we are never to throw out all we know already revealed in the bible, because of a single passage that does not make sense~ that we cannot understand just yet. No! This is a huge mistake in spiritual life~ to throw out what you understand because of what you do not know. :crazy Besides we know all things work together for good... we can trust the Lord to work out the details of our faith. :yes

Also, there will always be people who come along and say; “Well, what about this passage, and what about that one? Our faith is challenged from time to time. In Whom do we place our faith? In our mental reason, or in our Great God?

But we stand on, and cling to, and keep believing in, ALL that we know to be true! I could not figure it out before… but I learned to let go of my apprehension, because of the overwhelming certainty of scripture that tells me to keep looking for the appearing of my Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Besides, the idea of going thru any part of the tribulation is weird ... Why? Because it does not make sense in Christianity.

Will we to get our shot guns loaded~ and our canned goods stacked up~ for the tribulation then? Then tell me, who will a Christian kill~ to survive~ the horrible tribulation?

Hey, I gotta be outta here, know why? I got nine grand-children, I may not kill for me, but I bet I just might for them…

In Christs wonderful powerful grace and without any condemnation at all! bonnie