Rapture to heaven in 1 Thess. 4

[for_his_glory]

It's been pretty much 2,000 years since John 3:13 was pend,at that time its true no one went up. as I said that's 2000 years ago .
what has happened since then ? have you read Matthew 24 ? the disciples were wondering about something ,they wanted to know how they could know his time of being in power had begun.
as you read from 4-14 which of those things have not yet happen?

So, you believe that God's word has changed since 2000 years ago when the Apostles were given to write their letters?

 

[MisterE]

So, you believe that God's word has changed since 2000 years ago when the Apostles were given to write their letters?

The Apostles were inspired when they wrote, while the scribes were not inspired. There are 475,000 variants in the Greek Manuscripts. Fortunately we have thousands of manuscripts to help us put the original back together again. One issue is that we have about 103% of the Original, the task left for the Textual Critics today is to remove the 3% overage. Which is to say, we can confidently say that we have the Word of God today.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's been pretty much 2,000 years since John 3:13 was pend,at that time its true no one went up. as I said that's 2000 years ago .
what has happened since then ? have you read Matthew 24 ? the disciples were wondering about something ,they wanted to know how they could know his time of being in power had begun.
as you read from 4-14 which of those things have not yet happen?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples asked Jesus three questions and when you read the rest of Matthew 24 you will see that Jesus answered these three questions telling them when these things will come to be, the sign of His return and the end of this world.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Apostles were inspired when they wrote, while the scribes were not inspired. There are 475,000 variants in the Greek Manuscripts. Fortunately we have thousands of manuscripts to help us put the original back together again. One issue is that we have about 103% of the Original, the task left for the Textual Critics today is to remove the 3% overage. Which is to say, we can confidently say that we have the Word of God today.

So, you are saying we need to add to and take away from that which has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles? The scribes never wrote anything other than transcribing what the Prophets of God wrote.

It would help if you would give sources for what you say here. It's the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths John 14:26.

 

[MisterE]

So, you are saying we need to add to and take away from that which has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles?

I hate to mention this but we do not have the words of the Prophets and Apostles. You should have picked up on that when I mentioned the 475,000 variants. And in case you want to know exactly how many variants we have, there are only 138,000 words in the GNT. That's roughly 3 variants per word. It sounds like you have never read scholarly works on Textual Criticism. You may even think that Criticism is a bad word for Christians. It doesn't mean someone is being critical of the text.

Go to Youtube. search for Daniel Wallace on Textual Criticism. Look for

Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apocryphal Evidence (Text and Canon of the New Testament)​

For those who don't read much on Textual Criticism, the word Corruption means Variants. It is not a negative word.

Myths and Mistakes in New Testament Textual Criticism​

by Elijah Hixson , Peter J. Gurry , et al.

 

[for_his_glory]

I hate to mention this but we do not have the words of the Prophets and Apostles. You should have picked up on that when I mentioned the 475,000 variants. And in case you want to know exactly how many variants we have, there are only 138,000 words in the GNT. That's roughly 3 variants per word. It sounds like you have never read scholarly works on Textual Criticism. You may even think that Criticism is a bad word for Christians. It doesn't mean someone is being critical of the text.

Go to Youtube. search for Daniel Wallace on Textual Criticism. Look for

Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apocryphal Evidence (Text and Canon of the New Testament)​

For those who don't read much on Textual Criticism, the word Corruption means Variants. It is not a negative word.

Myths and Mistakes in New Testament Textual Criticism​

by Elijah Hixson , Peter J. Gurry , et al.

Thank you for this, but I will continue to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach me all truths. The way you put all of this then everyone should throw away what ever version of the Bible they have as there is no truth found in them and Christianity is a fraud. You need to read 2Peter chapter 2, but I guess you probably think that is also in error.


1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[JLB]

so hang with me just a bit and try to reconcile this with 1 Thess. 4 The thought is that the saints are now with Jesus in heaven and that at the rapture they will be coming DOWN with him to the clouds which are in the first heaven, but 1 Thess. 4 shows the dead in Christ going UP to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, in other words, they can't both be coming down from heaven TO the clouds below them and also be coming UP from the earth to the clouds above.

The dead in Christ are in heaven, and will return with the Lord at His coming.

The rapture is for… those who are alive and remain.


Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is referred to as the gathering; whereby His people are gathered together.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

• And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

From earth, those who are alive and remain.

From heaven, the dead in Christ.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

 

[MisterE]

Thank you for this, but I will continue to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach me all truths. The way you put all of this then everyone should throw away what ever version of the Bible they have as there is no truth found in them and Christianity is a fraud.

I rely on the HS to teach me, but that doesn't mean we are suppose to be lazy. Study to show yourself approved. I personally don't use versions of the Bible, why remove myself one step further away from the Word of God. I can tell by your sarcastic remarks that you didn't understand my post.

By the way, the HS teaches the elders/leadership as the context demands. This is not for the whole Church. It is the teachers who are anointed to teach the Truth.

 

[locust]

So, you believe that God's word has changed since 2000 years ago when the Apostles were given to write their letters?

as you read matthew 4-14 which of those things have not yet happen?

 

[locust]

The dead in Christ are in heaven, and will return with the Lord at His coming.

The rapture is for… those who are alive and remain.


Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is referred to as the gathering; whereby His people are gathered together.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

• And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

From earth, those who are alive and remain.

From heaven, the dead in Christ.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

have you given yourself a bit of a contradiction. if as you say ''the dead are in heaven '' the thought of them returning ,for what reason ?? they made it to heaven ! the last thing they are going to want is to go back to earth . then you go on to say there is a rapture . to what, take more to heaven ?

 

[locust]

The dead in Christ are in heaven, and will return with the Lord at His coming.

The rapture is for… those who are alive and remain.


Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is referred to as the gathering; whereby His people are gathered together.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

• And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

From earth, those who are alive and remain.

From heaven, the dead in Christ.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

• ''And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.''
• who are the elect ?

 

[JLB]

have you given yourself a bit of a contradiction. if as you say ''the dead are in heaven '' the thought of them returning ,for what reason ?? they made it to heaven ! the last thing they are going to want is to go back to earth . then you go on to say there is a rapture . to what, take more to heaven ?

The dead in Christ are in heaven and will return to receive their glorified bodies along with those who are alive and remain.

• if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Those in heaven, who have died, are returning with Him.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

 

[JLB]

• ''And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.''
• who are the elect ?

Those who are in the Elect One; His covenant people. Those who are in Christ.


And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

Jesus is teaching His disciples privately.

“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6

 

[for_his_glory]

as you read matthew 4-14 which of those things have not yet happen?

If you were a student of the Holy Spirit and would read your Bible you would clearly see things that are past, present and yet future. The main thing that is yet future is the return of Christ and we being prepared to be caught up to Him when He does return on the last day.

 

[for_his_glory]

I rely on the HS to teach me, but that doesn't mean we are suppose to be lazy. Study to show yourself approved. I personally don't use versions of the Bible, why remove myself one step further away from the Word of God. I can tell by your sarcastic remarks that you didn't understand my post.

By the way, the HS teaches the elders/leadership as the context demands. This is not for the whole Church. It is the teachers who are anointed to teach the Truth.

I never came across as being sarcastic and sorry you took it that way and I'm going to ignore the implication that you assume I am lazy.

How can the Holy Spirit teach you apart from all the teachings in the Bible that are the inspired words of God given to the Prophets and Apostles to write.

Since you do not believe any translations of the Bible are correct and you do not use any of them, may I ask from what you use to read and study from?

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[MisterE]

How can the Holy Spirit teach you apart from all the teachings in the Bible that are the inspired words of God given to the Prophets and Apostles to write.

Since you do not believe any translations of the Bible are correct and you do not use any of them, may I ask from what you use to read and study from?

Novum Testamentum Graece (The New Testament in Greek) is a critical edition of the New Testament in its original Koine Greek published by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society), forming the basis of most modern Bible translations and biblical criticism. It is also known as the Nestle–Aland edition after its most influential editors, Eberhard Nestle and Kurt Aland. The text, edited by the Institute for New Testament Textual Research, is currently in its 28th edition, abbreviated NA28.

We do not have the actually writings of the Prophets and Apostle. All we have is copies of copies, of copies. This is where the science of textual criticism come in. Reconstructing the Originals is what TC is all about.

 

[locust]

The dead in Christ are in heaven and will return to receive their glorified bodies along with those who are alive and remain.

• if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Those in heaven, who have died, are returning with Him.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

I dont see anything to indicate that Jesus was bringing anyone with him