Pre Wrath overview

[JM]

Can someone (Judy) post a quick overview (Judy) of the pre wrath view?

thx

 

[Judy]

I'll try but it will lead to more questions...

The 70th week begins with Israel signing a peace treaty with Antichrist. Then in the middle of the 7 years Antichrist is revealed and starts his persecution of christian and Jews. Then somewhere before the end of the 70th week Jesus cuts short Satan's persecution and removes the believers and pours out his wrath on Satan and an unrepentant unbelieving world.
Also the whole 70th week isn't the tribulation. It isn't until the middle of the 70th week with the abomination of desolation that the tribulation starts.

 

[JM]

I was re-reading the Rapture Question...good read thanks for suggesting pre wrath titles.

Do you know if the Sign is online or not? Maybe a site with a ton of details about the pre wrath view?

As you know, I went from pre trib to quasi-pre wrath and now I don't claim one over the over but it has to be one or the other...

Judy, what does Van Kampen say about the Church not being mentioned after chp. 3 in Rev?

 

[Judy]

Here is a site that you can ask questions about the pre wrath position. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prewrathonly/ Some of the leaders there are from http://www.solagroup.org . Or, you can go to http://www.biblefragrances.com/ or http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/prewrath.htm At the bottom of this page they have links to other prewrath sites. http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm I know I have more but I think that will get you the answers you are looing for. :wink:

 

[Green^Horn]

I'll try but it will lead to more questions...

The 70th week begins with Israel signing a peace treaty with Antichrist. Then in the middle of the 7 years Antichrist is revealed and starts his persecution of christian and Jews. Then somewhere before the end of the 70th week Jesus cuts short Satan's persecution and removes the believers and pours out his wrath on Satan and an unrepentant unbelieving world.
Also the whole 70th week isn't the tribulation. It isn't until the middle of the 70th week with the abomination of desolation that the tribulation starts.

with this view, where is Jesus during the 70th week?

 

[Cameron]

Jason,

You can think of the prewrath view as the "early in the 4th quarter view". When it comes to Rapture timing. Prewrath keeps the Rapture as part of the Second Coming (parousia) as post-tribbers correctly point out, but they acknowledge a difference between all the things that Jesus will do and where He will be (Mt. Zion, Mt of Oilves, Valley of Armageddon etc.) as do so they see it extended out more than just one day and it keeps the Rapture unknown in day and hour as pre-tribbers correctly point out.

"Prewrath" is not the best label, because a pre-tribber would say they are prewrath too. One of the big distinctives is a recognition in prewrath of the difference between tribulation/World-Flesh-Devil's Wrath and God's Wrath. God is not responsible for killing His own martyrs.

Another typical distinctive is that the 7th trumpet ends the 70th Seven and that the Bowls of Revelation occur in the next 30 day window that culminates in Armageddon.

Nice thing about prewrath is that when you search the Bible for all the passages that are:
1) On the topic of end times and also
2) have order and sequence info and also
3) are more clear and detailed than the rest
you end up wth 6 or passages that if you make surface comparisions point to a prewrath view (premillennial).

One of those surface comaprisions has you aligning Matthew 24's sun, moon and stars events with the 6th Seal in Revelation. So another distinctive is that the Rapture occurs between the 6th and 7th seal (Rev. chp 7)

 

[ddubsolo85]

WHAT IF...

What if...

1) The great tribulation begins with the persecution of the Jews, and lasts for 3.5 years, and then they are removed from Babylon.

2) The next 3.5 years consist of Gentile Christians being persecuted.

3) The conclusion comes when Babylon is destroyed, and the old promise to make Israel a kingdom of priests and a holy nation is fulfilled.

4) Christ does not return during the great tribulation, but returns after the millennnium.

This is pretty much how I see it. Now I'd appreciate all of you tearing it apart from limb to limb. *LOL*

 

[Cameron]

What if...

"What ifs" are fun to think about and talk about, but when they have no Scriptural harmony, then there is no point in entertaining them further.

For instance, if there was anything to your idea, it may actually be the opposite based on Revelation 7. There the Israelites are protected as a large group of gentiles appear in Heaven out of the great tribulaiton.

But in the prewrath it affects both Israel and the Church building up in the first 3.5 yrs to the great trib that is supposed to last 3.5 yrs but is cut short, may be by a year or 18 months, or so.

 

[Vic C.]

... Judy, what does Van Kampen say about the Church not being mentioned after chp. 3 in Rev?

Hey Jason, good to see you back in here again. I'm not Judy but I think I can answer. If it is Christ's ekklesia you are looking for beyond Ch. 3, we believe that those in verse 7:9 are His "church".

 

[Vic C.]

Quick question Cameron and/or Judy...

...There the Israelites are protected as a large group of gentiles appear in Heaven out of the great tribulaiton.

Ok, you are referring to Chapter 7. If the "great multitude" came out of great tribulation, when do all the saints get there that may have died before this 3 1/2 year period that is to be cut short?

 

[ddubsolo85]

Cameron:

For instance, if there was anything to your idea, it may actually be the opposite based on Revelation 7. There the Israelites are protected as a large group of gentiles appear in Heaven out of the great tribulaiton.

But in the prewrath it affects both Israel and the Church building up in the first 3.5 yrs to the great trib that is supposed to last 3.5 yrs but is cut short, may be by a year or 18 months, or so.

In my view of it, the great tribulation and the wrath of God are two different things with one before the millennium, and the other one after the millennium. The great tribulation happens first, and the slain believers (Jews and Gentiles), appear in heaven. There will be survivors on earth.

However, in the prewrath there will be both Jews and Gentiles present. It will be the Jews (under the New Covenant) leading the Gentiles to Christ and salvation during the millennium, which will be after the great tribulation, and before the wrath of God. The wrath of God will bring the end of the earth.

Consider that for me.

 

[Cameron]

Jason wrote:
... Judy, what does Van Kampen say about the Church not being mentioned after chp. 3 in Rev?

Hey Jason, good to see you back in here again. I'm not Judy but I think I can answer. If it is Christ's ekklesia you are looking for beyond Ch. 3, we believe that those in verse 7:9 are His "church".

Don't forget:
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

In my book, that is a Christian in any era.

 

[Cameron]

Quick question Cameron and/or Judy...

Quote:
...There the Israelites are protected as a large group of gentiles appear in Heaven out of the great tribulaiton.

Ok, you are referring to Chapter 7. If the "great multitude" came out of great tribulation, when do all the saints get there that may have died before this 3 1/2 year period that is to be cut short?

The best answer is:

And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This would be the 6th Seal Rapture.

 

[Georges]

Jason wrote:
... Judy, what does Van Kampen say about the Church not being mentioned after chp. 3 in Rev?

Hey Jason, good to see you back in here again. I'm not Judy but I think I can answer. If it is Christ's ekklesia you are looking for beyond Ch. 3, we believe that those in verse 7:9 are His "church".

Don't forget:
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

In my book, that is a Christian in any era.

Cameron,

By that do you mean Nazarene's....i.e. those who obey Torah and hold to the testimony of Jesus?

 

[Cameron]

Cameron,

By that do you mean Nazarene's....i.e. those who obey Torah and hold to the testimony of Jesus?
_________________
George

The best respone is with a question, I think

When was Revelation 12:7 written?

When was the Church of the Nazarine founded?

If they do not match, then I would propose it refers to Christians. Remember, that the Church met to discuss which commandments Gentiles should follow. Most are given by and interpreted by Christ. The most significant of these are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and then the second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Georges]

Cameron,

By that do you mean Nazarene's....i.e. those who obey Torah and hold to the testimony of Jesus?
_________________
George

The best respone is with a question, I think

When was Revelation 12:7 written?

When was the Church of the Nazarine founded?

If they do not match, then I would propose it refers to Christians. Remember, that the Church met to discuss which commandments Gentiles should follow. Most are given by and interpreted by Christ. The most significant of these are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and then the second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

Cameron,

Of course Rev 12:7 was written approx 95 AD, as was the whole book. If you mean when it takes place, of course I'd have to say midway through the tribulation period...

The Nazarene Church was formally started at the first Pentecost after the Resurrection. These were the Messianic Christians who still followed Mosaic Law in the freedom that Messiah provided.....I suspect since the believing Chruch will have been raptured previously, and with the presence of the 144000 messianic (nazarene type) Christians...I think that the remaining found in Rev 12:7 will be Torah observant Christians.

 

[noblej6]

Hi

This pre-wrth seems extremely weak to me, but maybe I don't have the right idea of what it is all about.

How does the wrath fit into a sequence where the parousia immediately follows a great tribulation in a celestial display. Immediately doesn't seem to me to be 3.5 years.

The pre wrath group suggest six things have not happened yet such as the Jews had 70 weeks,70 years, 70 sevens???, to shape up. This hasn't happened yet! No, that is what the wrath was all about. It doesn't matter anymore.

I don't get the picture.

noble6

 

[Vic C.]

Hi

This pre-wrth seems extremely weak to me, but maybe I don't have the right idea of what it is all about.

How does the wrath fit into a sequence where the parousia immediately follows a great tribulation in a celestial display. Immediately doesn't seem to me to be 3.5 years.

The pre wrath group suggest six things have not happened yet such as the Jews had 70 weeks,70 years, 70 sevens???, to shape up. This hasn't happened yet! No, that is what the wrath was all about. It doesn't matter anymore.

I don't get the picture.

noble6

I'm confused. You say, "No, that is what the wrath was all about" as though you feel the Wrath has already happened.

Anyway, I was very confused too when I first encountered this. Maybe because the pre Trib theory was so engrained in my mind. But I decided to abandon everything I believed and studied it from a fresh start. I find you don't have to twist and rearrange scripture to make it work. I also found you don't have to read scripture and say, "well, it say this, but it reaaly means this."

An example would be; Rev 4:1. Many people read it and say John being summoned to Heaven is symbolic for the Rapture of the saints. But is that what it says? A good rule of thumb would be to apply a literal interpretation, if possible. Since the verse simply says that John was taken up, I see no reason to interject spectulation.

We don't all agree there must be six thing to occur before the 'rapture'. What are the six that you are referring to? I believe a key passage is:

2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

By that we can determine that at least two things must happen first; a falling away and the revealing of antichrist. But there's more. Jesus also says;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That corresponds to what Paul says;

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It also corresponds to;

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


After that we have;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Since we are promised;

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

One can conclude the saints are caught up just prior to God's Wrath. Nowhere in scripture are we told the saints will not have to endure the trials and tribulations of antichrist against God's saints.

The first mention of any major number of people in Heaven is in Rev 7:9
where "a great multitude" suddenly show up. This is just after the sixth seal and just prior to the seventh seal, which ushers in God's Wrath.

Maybe this chart will help. It is a simplified version, but it should do the trick.

 

[Geo]

You should have a look at this pastor's site,

http://momentin.com/revstudy/chap03rapture.html

I found it to be most comprehensive. And what's even
better it makes perfect scriptual sense.

It took me a while to understand that this is indeed true and
that God promised to spare his church from the hour of wrath.

Look at the church of brotherly love (Philadelphia in Rev)
as an example where it's promised. And then also Laocidea where
it's not promised for them, but rather issued a strong warning.

Let's look at this very simple, very true signature of the Father:

Just as he saved Noah first and then the flood came.
Just like he called Lot out first and then Sodom was destroyed.
So then he will call his precious church out, and then the day of temptation
will come.

There has no prophecy fullfilled before that. Read above bible study closely.

It contains the blessed hope of our Lord.

George

 

[Vic C.]

It took me a while to understand that this is indeed true and
that God promised to spare his church from the hour of wrath.

I agree 100% with this. God promises us we will be spared His wrath, but we are not promised protection from the trials and tribulation of Antichrist. I believe only the church of Philadelphia is promised this.

Look at the church of brotherly love (Philadelphia in Rev)
as an example where it's promised.

Check your Greek and you will see they are promised protection, not removal.

First, lets look at the YLT:

10`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

temptation is translated here; "trial". The Greek word for "keep" is; tereo, which means 'to take care or or guard'.