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Pre Wrath overview

JM said:
Vic, when was the Church founded?
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The Lord's ekklesia was founded before creation. :D

Some say early in Acts; some say later in Acts; some say somewhere in Matthew. It has never been a central theme in my studies, so I never gave it much thought. I don't see the Bible as a series of ages as some do. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) dispensationalism was "created" to aid in the studying of Scripture.The Bible as we know it, isn't even in chronological order.

I really don't grasp dispensationalism. It's like a jigsaw puzzle.

Did the Church replace Israel? No

When the Bible speaks about Israel do you see it referring to the Church? Not if Israel is mentioned specifically.
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IMO, :-D I see Reformed theology as the most consistent, logical outworking of the replacement view...I also see mid to latter Acts dispensationalism as the consistent, logical outworking of dispensational concepts...it's a pickle!
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That's the wonderful thing about the End Times Forum, much opinion and interpretation. It's unavoidable. 8-)
 
Swords to plowshares is the conversion from weapons to useful things. Melt down a battleship and use the materials for sea side or tornado alley housing, I say that will take 7 years to complete. This happens after the second coming and religion has very little to do with what the messiah does. He does believe in the operating system outlined in the bible and used by no one. When all use the same simple operating system what you believe about God makes no difference in how the world provides for the needs of the people and the Earth. You could believe in aliens if you want and it would change nothing. I do commend the jews for turning waste land (Israel) into farms but that does not make them any better than the others who have contributed to other things. It does serve as an example of what the middle east and the world should be doing, but even they are buyers and sellers in a world of lines on the map and walls to protect land that belongs not to them but to all.
 
JM said:
http://www.revelationcommentary.org/

I just found this link.
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Sorry, I thought Judy or myself had given you that one. :oops:

Try this for book sources

http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/

There's also this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prewratho ... 1?xm=1&m=e

Gary Vaterlaus, from your link above, posts there. So does Heidi Nigro and Cameron Fultz, both of them have works published on the Strongtower link above. Cameron even posts here from time to time under the name cameron. He hasn't posted in a while though.
 
Some say early in Acts; some say later in Acts; some say somewhere in Matthew. It has never been a central theme in my studies, so I never gave it much thought. I don't see the Bible as a series of ages as some do. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) dispensationalism was "created" to aid in the studying of Scripture.The Bible as we know it, isn't even in chronological order.

I really don't grasp dispensationalism. It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
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What is the nature of the church, how do you define what the 'church' is? Do you believe the Church is a distinct body of believers which was not present on earth during the Old Testament period and which was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy according to the Scriptures? (Eph. 3:1-9; Col. 1:25-27).

Quote: A dispensation is a unique stage in the outworking of God’s program in time, whereby mankind is to have a believing response, being responsible to be a good steward of the particular revelation which God has given (Eph. 3:2,9; Col. 1:25; Exodus34:27-28; Gal. 3:10-12; 1 Tim. 1:4; Eph. 1:10; etc.).

In order to be "rightly dividing the Word of truth" it is essential to distinguish things that differ and to recognize certain basic Biblical distinctions, such as the difference between God’s program for Israel and God’s program for the Church (Acts 15:14-17; Rom. 11:25-27), the separation of 1000 years between the two resurrections (Rev. 20:4-6), the difference between the various judgments which occur at various times (2 Cor. 5:10; Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 20:11-15), the difference between law and grace (John 1:17; Rom. 6:14-15 Rom. 7:1-6) and the difference between Christ’s present session at the right hand of the Father as the Church’s great High Priest and Christ’s future session on the restored Davidic throne as Israel’s millennial King (Heb. 1:3; 10:12-13; Acts 15:16; Luke 1:32).


Peace,

jm
 
Speaking of dispensations....

Traditional Judaism has 4 dispensations....

7 thousand years divided into 3 dispensations of 2000 years each followed by a 1000 year period.

2000 year period of Lawlessness: Without Torah
2000 year period of Law: Torah
2000 year period of Messiah
1000 year period of Kingdom Rule


Amazingly, the Jews have been expecting Messiah to appear anywhere from 4000 YAC (Years after creation), or 0 AD to the present....to bad they didn't recognize Jesus when he came the 1st time.

Still, they are expecting the Messiah to appear before the 6000 YAC arrives....that is just around the corner. Guess what, he will come again around the 6000 year mark to usher in the 1000 year kingdom. So the Jews have it right and wrong.
 
JM said:
What is the nature of the church, how do you define what the 'church' is? Do you believe the Church is a distinct body of believers which was not present on earth during the Old Testament period and which was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy according to the Scriptures? (Eph. 3:1-9; Col. 1:25-27)....

Peace,

jm
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Don't know if I can easily answer the first question, which is, What is the nature of the church? We could start a new thread to discuss that. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be, The spreading of the good news, which is to let people know of the saving grace of God through the sacrifice and shed blood of His Son.

My definition of the church is, a congregation of true, redeemed believers, with the Lord as the head; assembled to to the will of the Father on Earth. It was established by Jesus and is comprised of both Jewish and gentile converts.

I do believe the church is a distinct body that wasn't present pre-NT, as it current is anyway. In essence, we are the Body of Christ.

As far as saying we are not subject to OT prophecy... don't think I can fully agree with that. We are must certainly the subject of Messianic prophecy. I do believe we are a part of End Times prophecy. Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about the end. So did Paul, Peter, John, etc. Why spend so much time on something that has no revelence to the believer?

We are here discussing End Times because we believe it has revelence to our faith. It can't save us, but it can bring you closer to the Lord and His Word.

Now, what was the topic again? 8-)
 
Georges

It is too bad that Jesus was not recognized as the christ, and what makes you so sure that the same does not hold true in this day. Jesus walked miles trying to find a believer, expect him to be walking and talking on the internet in this day.
 
Jake99 said:
Georges

It is too bad that Jesus was not recognized as the christ, and what makes you so sure that the same does not hold true in this day. Jesus walked miles trying to find a believer, expect him to be walking and talking on the internet in this day.
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Hi Jake.....Jesus was not recognized by many Jews, but keep in mind that many Jews did recognize him. From what I've read it is believed 1 in 5 believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Also,

The Christian Church up untill Circa 40AD was Jewish only....Cornelius "the first traditional Gentile believer" didn't come on the scene untill almost 10 years after Pentecost.

Contrary to popular belief....the only people converted at Pentecost were Jewish believers that came to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish feast day as required by God.


But about your question about today.....

I'm afraid it will take a tribulation period before the Jew's will recognize the pierced one.....
 
Georges said:
... The Christian Church up untill Circa 40AD was Jewish only....Cornelius "the first traditional Gentile believer" didn't come on the scene untill almost 10 years after Pentecost.

Contrary to popular belief....the only people converted at Pentecost were Jewish believers that came to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish feast day as required by God.

But about your question about today.....

I'm afraid it will take a tribulation period before the Jew's will recognize the pierced one.....
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Nice lead-in you gave me. :-D This is something that came to me while taking a nap this afternoon. :lol: It is in line with some of the questions Jason was asking.

I too believe God deals with Israel one way and NT saints another way. Though if you think about it, the way God deals with us IS the way He wanted to deal with Israel. But they (most of them) denied His Son. In the process they not only miss out on the promise of not having to be subjected to Wrath, many of them may miss out on God's Grace in the End, grace that I believe was in action in the OT as well.

They are warned throughout the Bible they will have to endure not only trials and tribulations, but would also be subjected to God's Wrath. We are told we will not have to suffer wrath, but are warned we will have to go through trials and tribulations. How does that negate the Great Tribulation> I believe it doesn't.

That's one of the things we have in common with Israel. We both have been warned about tribulation.
 
I don't study the bible so the hour or the method used according to a book, means nothing to me. What matters is that the trials and tribulations happened at Y2K and up until now. Seven years from mid 1998 when Christ was first challenged by the judges and the elect. The wrath is not as bad as you think for it is meant to get everyone on the same right path. It is special man with a sworded tongue and fire in his words that shows the way, and is the way. Its sad but people would rather call a so called blasphemer crazy or a criminal and have him destroyed than listen to a miracle worker who speaks and acts as the bible says he will. I wonder how anyone can say they are with Christ and yet draw lines on the map? Its an opposite start and thus an opposite path and leads to catastrophes just like the bible suggests and man has endured. You can preach all you want and never solve your problems going in that opposite direction. Christ walked alone then and still does now, I suggest you listen when he rambles, rants and speaks a language you have not heard before or should I say since Jesus. Take the advice he and the bible gives you, stand behind him and live happily ever after. If you have ownership papers for anything on this planet you are the number one enemy of Christ's simple system.
 
Jake99 said:
I don't study the bible so the hour or the method used according to a book, means nothing to me. What matters is that the trials and tribulations happened at Y2K and up until now. Seven years from mid 1998 when Christ was first challenged by the judges and the elect. The wrath is not as bad as you think for it is meant to get everyone on the same right path. It is special man with a sworded tongue and fire in his words that shows the way, and is the way. Its sad but people would rather call a so called blasphemer crazy or a criminal and have him destroyed than listen to a miracle worker who speaks and acts as the bible says he will. I wonder how anyone can say they are with Christ and yet draw lines on the map? Its an opposite start and thus an opposite path and leads to catastrophes just like the bible suggests and man has endured. You can preach all you want and never solve your problems going in that opposite direction. Christ walked alone then and still does now, I suggest you listen when he rambles, rants and speaks a language you have not heard before or should I say since Jesus. Take the advice he and the bible gives you, stand behind him and live happily ever after. If you have ownership papers for anything on this planet you are the number one enemy of Christ's simple system.
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What in the world are you talking about? You ramble on and on without giving any scriptural references to your opinionated jargon. Preaching your opinion shows a lack of submission to the Word of God on your part. Perhaps you are living apart from the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Jake99 said:
I don't study the bible so the hour or the method used according to a book, means nothing to me.
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Jake....now may be a good time to start....you may enjoy it.
 
I am born of woman and man and your book of recommendations is followed by no one. I was taught the bible as a child that was enough, I understand the basics perfectly. All of you are hypocrites why would I wish to be as you are. I speak from intelligence and experience not some book. No lines on the map is the system that is supposed to be in use in case you forgot about that part. Treating others as you would wish to be treated is another that matters not to you and yet you say you are with Christ, now that is a sin beyond all others. You are the anti christ which is why you have perpetual wars, environmental destruction and failure. Wake up.
 
LOL, does anyone else 'see' the hypocrisy in the above statement? We have someone who is judging us and says, "Treating others as you would wish to be treated is another that matters not to you...". Whoa!

I speak from intelligence and experience not some book.
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Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

No lines on the map is the system that is supposed to be in use in case you forgot about that part.
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God disagrees:

Num 33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
Num 33:54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
 
I say you have no legal right to possess what was given to all and that is why you have perpetual wars. Earned use is what you should be using as a system so the future of our resources is protected. Small house and basic needs for the one who does not contribute and big house and luxuries for the ones who contribute the most effort. Under no circumstances would I allow some back yard farmer to raise and distribute poultry or any other food. Nor would I allow the most profitable way to prevail over the right way when it comes to harvesting resources. Your way is the wrong way and that bible is corrupted to suit the needs of people who just don't care about the less fortunate or the environment.
 
Jake99 said:
I say you have no legal right to possess what was given to all and that is why you have perpetual wars. Earned use is what you should be using as a system so the future of our resources is protected. Small house and basic needs for the one who does not contribute and big house and luxuries for the ones who contribute the most effort. Under no circumstances would I allow some back yard farmer to raise and distribute poultry or any other food. Nor would I allow the most profitable way to prevail over the right way when it comes to harvesting resources. Your way is the wrong way and that bible is corrupted to suit the needs of people who just don't care about the less fortunate or the environment.
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Jim,
You need to move to a communist country since you prefer that way of life. Please do not speak against Christianity or the Bible on this forum as it is against the rules. You might enjoy fishing instead of attacking those who have trusted in the true Lord Jesus Christ.

You are way to old to be conjuring up various personal ideas about life and propagating them from forum to forum. Start reading the Bible and praying to the Father in heaven for peace and guidence.
Thank you,
Solo
 
Sounds like you two know each other. 8-)

My main gripes are some things are being said in ignorance of the Word, using one's own reasoning. I don't disagree with everything being said; some of it I heartily agree with. Some of it is blanket statement stuff. It's also not just what's being said; it's how it's said and to whom it is said.

You don't know all of us; you have no idea how I live, where I live, what I live in, what I drive or if I even drive, what I eat or don't eat, etc. Plus to top it off, all this said stuff against us is being given to us via a PC; a PC that is made from natural resources and silicon that was probably strip-mined, further damaging the environment and land you so dearly worship.

Hypocrisy? Heh.

Now, we have disrupted the topic long enough. Lets get back to discussing PreWrath isues.

Thanks.
 
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