Pre Wrath overview

[Vic C.]

Matt.24:29, Even the writers of the KJ realized that Jesus statement here starts a new subject, therefore a new paragraph.

Jesus gave Matt.24 as a summary, like a lawyer concluding his case. Not a detailed step by step.The bookof Rev. is a step by step. Thats why every thing is numbered 1 2 3

The word tribulation is not the same as Gods wrath, or the Great tribulation.

And would you not call the events in Matt.24:1-7 tribulations.

Matt.24:29 dose match Rev.6:12-17. also Rev12:9.

Rev. 6:12 comes at the beginning of the wrath, Matt.24:15-21 comes at the mid. point of tribulations , And begins the Great Tribulation, also Rev8: 13 WOE, WOE, WOE.

In Christ Love.

I basically agree with what you are saying, except for that last part.

We both agree God's Wrath is come at verse 6:17, correct? You mentioned 8:13. Do you see some of the trumpets as part of the Great Tribulation? If so, how do you reconcile that with 6:17? Certainly you don't see Satan's persecution against the saints going on at the very same time God is pouring out his wrath on an unbelieving world... or do you?

 

[Darrell dunn]

The book of Revelations is written with deferent levels all happening all at once, in some chapters John combins them, in others he writes about only one level.

Ch.1-3 are the church now, also Rev. 12;1-2, is a picture of How God views the church.

Then the church is taken, Rev.4:1, Rev.!2:5, Mat.25:10 five wise taken.And other scriptures about the rapture.

Rev.6:2 the AC comes on the scene, and starts killing the foolish virgins,Rev.6:9-11, also Rev.12:6,11,12,13,17

Rev.6:3 is WWW3 foretold in Ezekiel 38&39, and the burning of the weapons for 7 yrs Ezk.39:9 this will take them till mid trib where they flee into the mountains Mat.24:16

Satan is cast out of heaven, Rev.6:13,and12:9

At this time Gods covenant with the Jews starts, The 144,000 is sealed.
And the seventieth week starts or the time of Jacobs trouble, And Gods wrath
the first 4 trumpets and 4 vials, And at the same time the AC comes to full power, and rules the world for a time, times, and a half Dan.12:7 and Rev13:5

then the AC sets up the abomination in the holy place, Mat.24:15 and Dan.9:27 marking the mid point of the 7 yrs And the beginning of the Great tribulations Mat.24:15-22 , Dan. 12:11 , Rev. 8: 13 , WOE,WOE,WOE the last 3 trumpets and 3 vials are the great tribulations.

Rev.7:9 the multitude which no man could number is now in heaven before the throne.also the 144,000 are raptured Rev.14:1 they are on mount Sion
14:3 they are before the throne.

The Two witnesses start to preach at this time, for 1260 days Rev.11:3-4

The armies start to gather now for the final battle Armaggeddon,Rev.9;16 And Rev.16:16
Satan has tricked them into thinking that they are going to fight each other, but the real purpose is to try and stop Christ at his return.

 

[Vic C.]

We differ on the timing of the catching away, the Great Tribulation and it's length and when The Day of the Lord begins.

I see The Great Tribulation and antichrist's persecition starting at the opening of the fourth seal. I should say at this point, I see all the seals inside on Daniel's 70th. week, with the first seal starting off the week. I see the first three seals as the "beginning of sorrows".

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Like I said above, I see the GT beginning at the opening of the fourth seal, which coincides with Matthew 24:9

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

I see the GT and the persecution ending at the opening of the sixth seal, as Jesus stated.

Sixth seal... Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Jesus... Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Right after that, just before the seventh seal is where I see the Catching away, (great multitude,) as Jesus points out once again.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I see the Day of the Lord commencing right after the opening of the seventh seal, which put all the trumpets and the other judgements as part of God's Wrath. Nowhere do I see any overlapping of the GT and the Wrath. Though Satan is still in power at this time, his power is so diminished that he might as well have no power at all. Basically, he is powerless against God's Wrath.

 

[Solo]

Vic,
When I read the scriptures, I see the end times as you do. Thanks for the great post.
Michael

 

[Darrell dunn]

Dan.12 gives 3 deferent time periods of 3 1/2 yrs=10 plus yrs.

Ezek. 39: 9 says they will burn the weapons for 7 yrs.

If they in Judaea flee at the setting up of the abomination , or Mid week then when did they burn the weapons for 7 yrs?

We are in the beginning of sorrows Now.

And those people that are spoken of in Rev.6: 9-11 are all being killed not taken out of harms way. it says Killed as you were.

If you want to hang around and have your head removed, Ok with me, but I think I'll catch the first ride, thanks.

Mat.24:29 is Rev. 6:12 but that is the conclusion of the Gentile church. not the end of the tribulations.

And Gods covenant with the Jews Starts here for 7 yrs.

 

[Geo]

For everyone that considers "catching the first ride"
I found a very detailed book ready for download.

It contains profound Bible understanding not usually available
at web sites that deal with rapture related scripture. Great
weekend read ! and also my indepth-study for next week:

http://www.newslettersezines.com/download/opendoor1.zip

 

[Vic C.]

Dan.12 gives 3 deferent time periods of 3 1/2 yrs=10 plus yrs.

I'm not seeing that at all in Daniel. I do see extra days over and above the 7 years, but it doesn't equate to over an extra three years.

Ezek. 39: 9 says they will burn the weapons for 7 yrs.

If they in Judaea flee at the setting up of the abomination , or Mid week then when did they burn the weapons for 7 yrs?

I have not comitted that to memory, but when I find my notes, maybe I will comment on it.

We are in the beginning of sorrows Now.

I don't even think we've begun to see these "sorrows" just yet.

And those people that are spoken of in Rev.6: 9-11 are all being killed not taken out of harms way. it says Killed as you were.

Yes, Jesus says,

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

They will be the first to rise (be resurrected) as Paul says.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Paul also goes on to say,

1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you want to hang around and have your head removed, Ok with me, but I think I'll catch the first ride, thanks.

I will accept whatever fate the Lord has in store for me. I have His promise that He will not subject me to His wrath.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I see no promise that we are not subjected to Tribulation, including The Great Tribulation.

What is tribulation? Is it something appointed to us by God, or is it something we muct endure due to the Fall? Would there even be tribulation on Earth, had it net been for the Fall?

Mat.24:29 is Rev. 6:12 but that is the conclusion of the Gentile church. not the end of the tribulations.

Not according to Jesus.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened....

... Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And Gods covenant with the Jews Starts here for 7 yrs.

God's covenent started way back in Genesis, way before they were even called Jews.

Geo, thanks for the PDF. I agree Rev. 3:10 is just for the church of Philadelphia, but I dpn't see this as a "raprure". I see it jst as Rev.3:10 states; protection from the persecution of Antichrist during the GT. This goes back to the discussion we all had concerning Rev. 3:10. I know some here don't like it when I refer back to the Grrek for my meaning, but it says what it says. I'm waiting for someone who actually reads and understands Greek to post and either confirm, correct or add to what I said in that thread.

I will read the rest of it when I get a chance. 8-)

 

[Darrell dunn]

#1 Dan.12:7- time,times and a half.

#2 Dan.12:11 -1290 days.

#3 Dan.12:12 -1335 days.

I count 3= 10 plus years.

Now lets go to Rev. 4:1 First words, AFTER THIS, after what the church age.

Now Rev. 7: 1 First words,AFTER THESE THINGS, after what, the first 3 1/2 years.

Now Rev.7:9 First words, AFTER THIS, after what, the second 3 1/2 years. THE 144,000 PREACHING

Then the 2 witnesses preach for 3 1/2 years, At this time is the great tribulations

These can't be happening at the same time.


now in Mat. 24:5-7 For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ.

And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars.

For nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom , famines, pestilence, and earthquakes in divers places.

All of these are the beginning of sorrows.

Which of these don't we have today?

Now when the AC comes to power this will take time, He does not just drop out of the sky in charge of the world.

Rev.6:3 the red horse, this is WW3, Ezek.38&39 The 7 years of burning the weapons can't start till after this. Ezek39;9

 

[Vic C.]

#1 Dan.12:7- time,times and a half.

#2 Dan.12:11 -1290 days.

#3 Dan.12:12 -1335 days.

I count 3= 10 plus years.

What we have here is not three periods of some 3 1/2 years + each, but rather one time period of 1335 days, divided up as such; time, times and a half being the second half of Daniel's 70th. week. (Daniel 12:7) I'll get to why I believe this is the second half in a moment. The second division is the additional 30 days as stated in Daniel 12:11. (1260+30=1290) This 30 day period is the time where God's wrath is completed, the battle of Armegeddon takes place and Antichrist is destroyed. The last 45 days (1260+30+45=1335) is when Israel is finally restored back to the Promised Land, Jesus is given rule over the earth, ending with the Judgement of the 'nations" (seperation of the sheep and goats), ushering in the Miilennial Kingdom.

Why do I think the time, times and a half is the second half of the 70th. week? Lets go back to Daniel 12:1. Unlike most pretribulational believers, I believe that he who is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7) is not the Holy Spirit but Michael, the archangel, who is actually the opposite of the Antichrist. When you read Daniel 11:45 and Daniel 12:1 it all makes sense. Also, Daniel 12:1 harmonizes perfectly with Matthew 24:29. I posted in detail the relationship between Michael and Israel and will provide the links if you'd like.

Now lets go to Rev. 4:1 First words, AFTER THIS, after what the church age.

I don't see how this relates to what we were discussing, but ok.

Now Rev. 7: 1 First words,AFTER THESE THINGS, after what, the first 3 1/2 years.

He is talking about the events that take place at the opening on the Sixth seal. I believe we are already into the second half by now. I see the Fourth seal as the beginning of the second half.

Now Rev.7:9 First words, AFTER THIS, after what, the second 3 1/2 years. THE 144,000 PREACHING

I don't see how you can say this is after the second half when we still have one more seal, seven trumpets, etc.

Then the 2 witnesses preach for 3 1/2 years, At this time is the great tribulations

These can't be happening at the same time.

Lets not forget Jesus promises us He will shorten the duration of the GT, so the GT is not happenning the entire time. (Matthew 24:22) Also, why can't the two witnesses and the 144,000 be "preaching" at the same time?

now in Mat. 24:5-7 For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ.

And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars.

For nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom , famines, pestilence, and earthquakes in divers places.

All of these are the beginning of sorrows.

Which of these don't we have today?

Yes, but these things have been happening throughout the last 2,ooo years as well. My point was that it's not happenning at the level of intensity that I believe Jesus is suggesting.

Now when the AC comes to power this will take time, He does not just drop out of the sky in charge of the world.

Rev.6:3 the red horse, this is WW3, Ezek.38&39 The 7 years of burning the weapons can't start till after this. Ezek39;9

To be honest, I'm not sure how I can fit this into End Times. In Ezekiel 39:11-12, it says Gog and and all his multitudes (Magog) will be destroyed and buried. Yet in Revelation 20:8, we see Gog and Magog. I'm not sure if this passage in Ezekiel can be taken as symbolic if it's read and understood in a literal sense... and in light of the fact that they are destroyed in 39:11. How do I see this seven years as referring to Daniel's 70th. week?

 

[Vic C.]

Geo, I read some of that article you posted. (I read up 'til "the Feasts"). Lots of what was written didn't sit right with me, but what stuck out was his interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:3

The Greek word, apostasia, translated “falling away†is only used twice in the New Testament. Its other use is in Acts 21:21 and it is translated “to forsake.†The word means departure, taking away, or separation. The best translation for apostasia in the context of the above Scripture is “raptureâ€Â.

Thus, this passage of Scripture simply states that the day of the Lord cannot occur until the Firstfruits Rapture takes place and the man of sin, Antichrist, is revealed and sets himself up as god in the temple. The sequence of events is that the Firstfruits Rapture will take place, the Antichrist will be revealed, and then three and one-half years later he will set himself up in the temple as god. It is after these events that the second advent or the second coming takes place, and this is when the Main Harvest Rapture takes place.

I disagree with his use of the word apostasia.

Apostasia - (From Forerunner Commentary) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

"The falling away" is a translation of the Greek apostasia, meaning "departure," "forsaking," "defection," or "apostasy." In secular Greek, the word "is used politically of rebels" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 413). Thus, in the present context, it denotes a departure or apostasy from the faith, the revealed truth of God (see I Timothy 4:1). Such a defection from the true gospel and doctrine was a very real concern for the first-century apostles. Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude all warn of it in their letters. Despite their warnings, it did indeed occur as the century wore on.

Paul tells us specifically what the "unrighteous deception" (II Thessalonians 2:10) is for which the people depart. In verse 7, he names it "the mystery of lawlessness," a set of beliefs that is totally contrary to "the truth" (verses 10-12). This deception is "the lie" that Satan has always foisted on mankindâ€â€that we do not need to obey God's law (see Genesis 3:4; Romans 1:21-25).

Maybe someone can tell me, why would Paul use the word harpazo in 1 Thess. 4:17, meaning to be "caught up", then use the word apostasia in 2 Thess. 2:3 to describe the same event?

 

[Solo]

Geo, I read some of that article you posted. (I read up 'til "the Feasts"). Lots of what was written didn't sit right with me, but what stuck out was his interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:3

The Greek word, apostasia, translated “falling away†is only used twice in the New Testament. Its other use is in Acts 21:21 and it is translated “to forsake.†The word means departure, taking away, or separation. The best translation for apostasia in the context of the above Scripture is “raptureâ€Â.

Thus, this passage of Scripture simply states that the day of the Lord cannot occur until the Firstfruits Rapture takes place and the man of sin, Antichrist, is revealed and sets himself up as god in the temple. The sequence of events is that the Firstfruits Rapture will take place, the Antichrist will be revealed, and then three and one-half years later he will set himself up in the temple as god. It is after these events that the second advent or the second coming takes place, and this is when the Main Harvest Rapture takes place.

I disagree with his use of the word apostasia.


[quote:41aea]Apostasia - (From Forerunner Commentary) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

"The falling away" is a translation of the Greek apostasia, meaning "departure," "forsaking," "defection," or "apostasy." In secular Greek, the word "is used politically of rebels" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 413). Thus, in the present context, it denotes a departure or apostasy from the faith, the revealed truth of God (see I Timothy 4:1). Such a defection from the true gospel and doctrine was a very real concern for the first-century apostles. Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude all warn of it in their letters. Despite their warnings, it did indeed occur as the century wore on.

Paul tells us specifically what the "unrighteous deception" (II Thessalonians 2:10) is for which the people depart. In verse 7, he names it "the mystery of lawlessness," a set of beliefs that is totally contrary to "the truth" (verses 10-12). This deception is "the lie" that Satan has always foisted on mankindâ€â€that we do not need to obey God's law (see Genesis 3:4; Romans 1:21-25).

Maybe someone can tell me, why would Paul use the word harpazo in 1 Thess. 4:17, meaning to be "caught up", then use the word apostasia in 2 Thess. 2:3 to describe the same event?[/quote:41aea]
Because it is the only explanation that pretribbers can use to discount the truth that the antiChrist will be revealed and the falling away from sound doctrine will occur before Jesus returns for his elect.

 

[Darrell dunn]

John1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

All of God is literal, so why would his Word( Jesus) be symbolic?

If it won't work with your understanding of scripture, then it must be symbolic.RIGHT?

When John said(after this things) meaning time passage.

Rev.4;1 after the church
Rev.7:1 after the things of the seals ABOUT 3 1/2 yrs
Rev7:9 after the preaching of the 144,000 ABOUT 3 1/2 yrs
Then the preaching of the two witnesses for 1260 days. ABOUT 3 1/2 yrs.

The WW3 will happen at the second seal. then 7 years of burning of the weapons, takes it to the two witnesses and mid trib.
I can't find any that are saved at this time, except those that live all the way through till Christ comes.

And Mt. 24:22 says the days are shortened not the number of days.

lets get real every word has to fit.

 

[Geo]

"Because it is the only explanation that pretribbers can use
to discount the truth that the antiChrist will be revealed and
the falling away from sound doctrine will occur before Jesus
returns for his elect."

Now that's a bit of a hasty perception. As I understand the
author of the book that Vic refers to speaks clearly about the
falling away from sound doctrine that will occur before
Jesus returns, if you read the complete book and judge based
on that, not on single sentences.

We experience it every day, there is almost no sound doctrine
left, everything is judged according to personal opinon.

Personally I don't agree with the author on his interpretation
of 2 Thess. 2:3 but I agree with him on all the main topics of
his book. It's essential reading, especially because too many
people never understood, and still strongly oppose:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God
your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5.23.

That's also essential understanding, without it you won't be able
to let this book 'sit right' with you, and you will misinterpret many
key points of the Bible accordingly, based on seing creation merely
as body and soul, and overlooking the complete salavation that is
offered NOW for the soul, but not later, when the door will be shut.

The soul will defend itself to the last minute, until reality will
force you to give it up. That's why the revival that all the "current
days prophets" on prohecy forums talk about will be so strong
after the the firstfruit been taken. I recommend to understand
"spirit and soul and body" now, everything is connected with that,
and without it you WILL keep on picking mistakes instead of
appreciating the solution to be able to stand in front of Jesus
judgment seat without having your soul be burned.

 

[Solo]

"Because it is the only explanation that pretribbers can use
to discount the truth that the antiChrist will be revealed and
the falling away from sound doctrine will occur before Jesus
returns for his elect."

Now that's a bit of a hasty perception. As I understand the
author of the book that Vic refers to speaks clearly about the
falling away from sound doctrine that will occur before
Jesus returns, if you read the complete book and judge based
on that, not on single sentences.

We experience it every day, there is almost no sound doctrine
left, everything is judged according to personal opinon.

Personally I don't agree with the author on his interpretation
of 2 Thess. 2:3 but I agree with him on all the main topics of
his book. It's essential reading, especially because too many
people never understood, and still strongly oppose:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God
your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5.23.

That's also essential understanding, without it you won't be able
to let this book 'sit right' with you, and you will misinterpret many
key points of the Bible accordingly, based on seing creation merely
as body and soul, and overlooking the complete salavation that is
offered NOW for the soul, but not later, when the door will be shut.

The soul will defend itself to the last minute, until reality will
force you to give it up. That's why the revival that all the "current
days prophets" on prohecy forums talk about will be so strong
after the the firstfruit been taken. I recommend to understand
"spirit and soul and body" now, everything is connected with that,
and without it you WILL keep on picking mistakes instead of
appreciating the solution to be able to stand in front of Jesus
judgment seat without having your soul be burned.

Perhaps there was a disconnect on what I was referring to. The apostacy is not the rapture as the quote on the post that I was commenting on projected.

The Greek word, apostasia, translated “falling away†is only used twice in the New Testament. Its other use is in Acts 21:21 and it is translated “to forsake.†The word means departure, taking away, or separation. The best translation for apostasia in the context of the above Scripture is “raptureâ€Â.

Thus, this passage of Scripture simply states that the day of the Lord cannot occur until the Firstfruits Rapture takes place and the man of sin, Antichrist, is revealed and sets himself up as god in the temple. The sequence of events is that the Firstfruits Rapture will take place, the Antichrist will be revealed, and then three and one-half years later he will set himself up in the temple as god. It is after these events that the second advent or the second coming takes place, and this is when the Main Harvest Rapture takes place.

The falling away is just that, a falling away from sound doctrine. Jesus will not return for his elect until after the falling away from sound doctrine occurs, and the son of perdition is revealed.

 

[Geo]

The falling away is just that, a falling away from sound doctrine. Jesus will not return for his elect until after the falling away from sound doctrine occurs, and the son of perdition is revealed.

Ok, so this could happen then tonight for example,
although as I understand it God also fulfills the Jewish
feasts simultaniously to stay in tune with the promise to Israel.

P.S. "pretribbers" reminds of a term that is as useful
to understand the Bible as the term democrat or republican
in politics. It isn't actually a point in itself, nor does it
correspond to anything that explains anything by itself.

A term that actually is in the Bible is "bride".
Have you ever thought about the meaning of that word,
and in case you have one yourself can you remember
your care and your feelings for her?

This might lead to something interesting.

 

[Solo]

The falling away is just that, a falling away from sound doctrine. Jesus will not return for his elect until after the falling away from sound doctrine occurs, and the son of perdition is revealed.

Ok, so this could happen then tonight for example,
although as I understand it God also fulfills the Jewish
feasts simultaniously to stay in tune with the promise to Israel.

P.S. "pretribbers" reminds of a term that is as useful
to understand the Bible as the term democrat or republican
in politics. It isn't actually a point in itself, nor does it
correspond to anything that explains anything by itself.

A term that actually is in the Bible is "bride".
Have you ever thought about the meaning of that word,
and in case you have one yourself can you remember
your care and your feelings for her?

This might lead to something interesting.

Perhaps you would like to define those that believe in a pretribulation rapture by another word which denotes this belief. Pretribber, Posttribber, Midtribber, Prewrath are terms that make sense to me, but evidently do not correlate with any meaning understanding to you. I will use whatever word you enjoy over my terms.

As far as the bride of Christ, where in the New Testament is word bride found? Please list all references and explain the verse(s) with your understanding of each. Thanks.

PS How many Christians have been persecuted, tortured, murdered, and have undergone great tribulation in this world?

 

[Vic C.]

Personally I don't agree with the author on his interpretation
of 2 Thess. 2:3 but I agree with him on all the main topics of
his book. It's essential reading, especially because too many
people never understood, and still strongly oppose:

I'm happy we both can agree in 2 Thess 2:3. I did read it in context though and it stuck out like a sore thumb. I look forward to reading about The Feasts. I have developed an interest in them and how they may relate to End Time.

Regarding something Solo posted about the "bride" reminded me of something. Ever since I did my last study on the 10 virgins and found out about the Jewish wedding "rituals" of that time, it changed my whole understanding of that parable and the"bride".

 

[Geo]

Hi Solo,

"Political" terms are meaningless, the only reason they are used
is to describe preset thinking of other people, without start giving
the matter our own attention and the thought process they deserve.

I found 8 "brides" in the old testament and these ones in the new:

John 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the
bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because
of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in
thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no
more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming
down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which
had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me,
saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him
that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever
will, let him take the water of life freely.

"He that hath the bride is the bridegroom" Clear statement regarding relationship

"The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee"
Watch out Babylon, you had it, and now you don't. The bride nor the bridegroom
are ministering to you anymore, they are gone (removed).

"new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride
adorned for her husband." New Jerusalem prepared as a bride

"the bride, the Lamb's wife" Cleartext again regarding relationship

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come" The bride is positioned to say
'come!' together with the Spirit. The ones that have ears that actually work
are positioned together with them.

Since you didn't respond to my actual question, let me put it into cleartext:
What do you assume to be the position of the Father towards the bride,
and by what law are all HIS actions governed concerning her?

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,

"Political" terms are meaningless, the only reason they are used
is to describe preset thinking of other people, without start giving
the matter our own attention and the thought process they deserve.

I found 8 "brides" in the old testament and these ones in the new:

John 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the
bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because
of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in
thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no
more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming
down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which
had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me,
saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him
that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever
will, let him take the water of life freely.

"He that hath the bride is the bridegroom" Clear statement regarding relationship

"The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee"
Watch out Babylon, you had it, and now you don't. The bride nor the bridegroom
are ministering to you anymore, they are gone (removed).

"new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride
adorned for her husband." New Jerusalem prepared as a bride

"the bride, the Lamb's wife" Cleartext again regarding relationship

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come" The bride is positioned to say
'come!' together with the Spirit. The ones that have ears that actually work
are positioned together with them.

Since you didn't respond to my actual question, let me put it into cleartext:
What do you assume to be the position of the Father towards the bride,
and by what law are all HIS actions governed concerning her?

Hey Geo,

The bride was bought and paid for by the Son, as determined by the Father, protected by the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The bride is not just the Church, but the bride is all of the elect of God. Notice once again the New Testament scriptures speaking of the bride refer to New Jerusalem, not the Church. Pretribbers have a tough time with this understanding, and they refute the fact that the entire elect of God are the bride of Christ. The verses in Revelation make it clear that a prewrath gathering of the elect of God is truth, and it aligns with all other scripture.

The Spirit and New Jerusalem are telling all who hear, thirst, and whosoever will, "Come". The water of life is free.


16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:16-17


9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:9-27

 

[Vic C.]

The bride was bought and paid for by the Son, as determined by the Father, protected by the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The bride is not just the Church, but the bride is all of the elect of God.

This is the same conclusion I have come to regarding "the bride".