Predestination and Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

Lets look again at Calvin's TULIP. (actually someone else coined that)

T - Total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself).
U - Unconditional election (God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them).
L - Limited atonement (Christ's atonement is adaquate to save all people but is efficient for God's elect only).
I - Irresistible grace (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the elect).
P - Perseverance of the saints (those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith).

Since I'm a student of Calvinism, I will add some information that isn't in the basic TULIP.
U - Unconditional election....isn't conditioned by God looking into the future and seeing who will respond to the Gospel.

L - Limited atonement....Calvin sees no one else saved other than the elect. I ADD, the "General Call of the Gospel" to include those of whom Christ's atonement is adequate for, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


The reason that I have posted TULIP is because some folk have misquoted Calvin.

Hi Chopper,

I've been following along - a little bit.
I'm not a Calvinist. I believe one has free will and I also believe one could lose salvation.
I agree with nothing of what Mr. Calvin has to say because I would not be able to serve that God.

But you say that YOU are adding the "General Call of the Gospel" for those that may wish to accept it.

Is this YOUR idea, or something Calvin believed? It sounds like it's your idea.

Also, you said that some folk have misquoted Calvin.
In what way?

Thanks.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,

I've been following along - a little bit.
I'm not a Calvinist. I believe one has free will and I also believe one could lose salvation.
I agree with nothing of what Mr. Calvin has to say because I would not be able to serve that God.

But you say that YOU are adding the "General Call of the Gospel" for those that may wish to accept it.

Is this YOUR idea, or something Calvin believed? It sounds like it's your idea.

Also, you said that some folk have misquoted Calvin.
In what way?

Thanks.

Wondering

Well hello my friend Wondering. It's good to hear from you, and I receive your questioning with a grateful heart. Because I spent many years as a "reformed Baptist" I was subjected to Calvin's TULIP with BIG questions in my heart. Mainly....

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

These, as well as others that I used as I witnessed to the lost kept eating at my heart that Calvin was wrong in that His theology on "Limited atonement" which meant that actually, other than the Elect, which are the predestined before the foundations of the world were laid....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

....were the only ones that God wanted to be saved. The sad truth of Calvin's limited atonement is that since God only wanted the Elect to be saved, the rest of humanity, God wanted to stay lost. Listen my friend Wondering, you and I know that that cannot be true. The heart of God is way to big and His love for wanting sinners to repent and believe on His Son for Salvation is way higher than John Calvin's "limited atonement".

Eventually, because I just couldn't stay in an organization that believed the untruth of Calvin, I left the "Reformed Baptist" folk and became independent. No Denominational, and started a "Christian Fellowship" in my town of which our Lord richly blessed. Now I was free to call upon the Lord Jesus, and His Spirit for the Truth!! I believe that the Holy Spirit, by revelation, caused me to develop the "General Call of the Gospel" of which I have been presenting for years now.

So, there are two parts to my theology on the Salvation of souls....
1. The Elect. (Ephesians 1:3-5) This group is the Bride of Christ, hand picked by Almighty God before they were born to be His Remnant, a witness to His power and authority to everyone else. They are a part of the Church of Jesus Christ, not the whole.

2. The General Call of the Gospel Believers. (John 3:15-17) They make up the rest of the Church. So, in the Church of Jesus Christ, you have the Elect Believers, probably the leaders, but not just holding to them. And you have the General Call Believers who may or may not be leaders. They make up the mass of those attending who support the church thru their offerings of money and of their time to upkeep the building and grounds.

The Elect cannot loose their Salvation. Calvin was right in his Perseverance of the Saints. The General Call believers can loose their Salvation (Hebrews 3:12-14) if they don't keep the faith until the end.

Ok, enough I guess. You asked and my fingers and mind went wild here. Sorry it's so long. I'll be happy to answer any question that you or anyone else has.

 

[Deborah13]

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

My understanding in the whole first chapter of Ephesians, it not using 'us' and 'ye' as speaking to individuals. He is addressing Jews and Gentiles saying that it was ordained before the foundation of the world 'planned' that Gentiles 'ye' would also be adopted through Christ as the believing Jews 'us' had been.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then Why does God have to know which line would yield this result for Him to then choose based on that knowledge - when this desired result itself is yielded only by God's choosing in the first place?

God doesn't "have to know." He DOES know. He cannot not know because He is omniscient. There is nothing that, in our experience as creatures was, is or is to come, that He does not know perfectly down to the last iota of fact.

"to then choose" and "in the first place":

God does not function in the "then" or in "the first place." He functions in the eternal "now."
When you frame your understanding in the context of time and place, you misplace God. For God, "then" is "now" and "yesterday" and "tomorrow" and "forever." It is we experience history in that manner. God doesn't. He is not part of creation; he is outside of space-time.

But, since we cannot experience being outside of time, we can only communicate within the framework of time including the communication in scripture.

So it is not whether God "has to know which line"; He eternally knows everything that will "ever" happen.

And why does scripture frame things in words like "from the foundation of the world"? It does so because that is how we experience reality; as a linear sequence of events. (Or, perhaps, as an enormous number of parallel and interconnected sequences of events.) We experience it that way because we are finite beings who exist in space-time. We are incapable of experiencing reality in more than those 4 dimensions of length, width, height and time so that's how scripture frames everything.

"precedes/follows" needn't be just functions of time,

That is incorrect. If you say that one event precedes another then you are speaking within the context of time.

iakov the fool

 

[Cygnus]

Good morning Cygnus. To answer your question, I'll answer with the two groups or classes of Believers that make up the Family of God. The Scriptures that I'll use are found in John 17, Jesus' high priestly prayer. The first group is the Elect of God predestined by God Himself to be His Remnant....

John 17:6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."....These, I believe, were the Disciples, at this point in time. Look at Ephesians....

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Predestination in the New Testament (Covenant) started with the Disciples. Actually, John the Baptist was the last chosen one of God in the Old Testament (Covenant). These two "groups" are either "chosen" by God Himself before the world began and before the person was born like Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5) or the choice belongs to the person who hears the Gospel message.

Lets look at what I term as the "General Call of the Gospel" and those who come to Christ as a result of the Gospel preached...
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

You asked, "So I ask... what is that choice based upon?" The answer is Romans 10:9. A persons "choice" is based upon hearing the Gospel. We both know that the Holy Spirit of God is responsible for drawing a sinner to make a choice upon hearing the Gospel preached to him/her.

Back to John 17....
John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

So, here in Verse 20 we see the "Elect" of God, given to Jesus Christ so that they would learn from Him, and now they are the Evangelists and go out to spread the "Call of the Gospel" and those who believe by their own "choice" will be saved and become a part of the family of God, as it says in Verse 21.

Thanks for the reply. I don't want to discuss the whole reply in a single setting as they often then begin to become long and a lot is lost.

In you reply you did say..."You asked, "So I ask... what is that choice based upon?" The answer is Romans 10:9. A persons "choice" is based upon hearing the Gospel. We both know that the Holy Spirit of God is responsible for drawing a sinner to make a choice upon hearing the Gospel preached to him/her."

Your reply was Romans 10:9. OK, many hear the Gospel and believe while many hear the Gospel and don't believe. My original thought, question was an attempt to discuss why one person would accept and the other reject. As I have mentioned in earlier post I think if free-will is at work then the decision is based upon happenstance and life experience. I don't believe God leaves "free-will" choice up to happenstance and life experience. I think if God is drawing the sinner to Jesus that sinner will go to Jesus. Now, if one were to disagree the question is still pretty much the same...why would one accept or reject Gods drawing? What is that decision based upon?

 

[childeye]

When Peter denied Jesus three times, there were several individuals whose pathways in life intersected with Peter's. They recognized Peter and were moved to declare him as "one of them". Peter denied it each time. Immediately after the third denial by Peter, the cock crowed just as Jesus had foretold. If this scripture is accurate, then all of these extremely detailed events had to be pre-destined, including the crowing of an animal at a precise moment. Therefore God has already seen all events in time, and what is the future to us is already the past to God.

Many of you have written that this does not preclude freewill, but you are changing the definition of the term to reconcile this. Freewill means that people's choices are not predestined. Peters and all those involved in the incident most definitely were, or Jesus would have been wrong. It's difficult to maintain a sensible discussion when words are changed to mean what they don't mean.
free will
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
   synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty,Independence

 

[GodsGrace]

Well hello my friend Wondering. It's good to hear from you, and I receive your questioning with a grateful heart. Because I spent many years as a "reformed Baptist" I was subjected to Calvin's TULIP with BIG questions in my heart. Mainly....

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

These, as well as others that I used as I witnessed to the lost kept eating at my heart that Calvin was wrong in that His theology on "Limited atonement" which meant that actually, other than the Elect, which are the predestined before the foundations of the world were laid....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

....were the only ones that God wanted to be saved. The sad truth of Calvin's limited atonement is that since God only wanted the Elect to be saved, the rest of humanity, God wanted to stay lost. Listen my friend Wondering, you and I know that that cannot be true. The heart of God is way to big and His love for wanting sinners to repent and believe on His Son for Salvation is way higher than John Calvin's "limited atonement".

Eventually, because I just couldn't stay in an organization that believed the untruth of Calvin, I left the "Reformed Baptist" folk and became independent. No Denominational, and started a "Christian Fellowship" in my town of which our Lord richly blessed. Now I was free to call upon the Lord Jesus, and His Spirit for the Truth!! I believe that the Holy Spirit, by revelation, caused me to develop the "General Call of the Gospel" of which I have been presenting for years now.

So, there are two parts to my theology on the Salvation of souls....
1. The Elect. (Ephesians 1:3-5) This group is the Bride of Christ, hand picked by Almighty God before they were born to be His Remnant, a witness to His power and authority to everyone else. They are a part of the Church of Jesus Christ, not the whole.

2. The General Call of the Gospel Believers. (John 3:15-17) They make up the rest of the Church. So, in the Church of Jesus Christ, you have the Elect Believers, probably the leaders, but not just holding to them. And you have the General Call Believers who may or may not be leaders. They make up the mass of those attending who support the church thru their offerings of money and of their time to upkeep the building and grounds.

The Elect cannot loose their Salvation. Calvin was right in his Perseverance of the Saints. The General Call believers can loose their Salvation (Hebrews 3:12-14) if they don't keep the faith until the end.

Ok, enough I guess. You asked and my fingers and mind went wild here. Sorry it's so long. I'll be happy to answer any question that you or anyone else has.

Hi Chopper,
Thanks for such a complete reply.

A limited atonement limits God and Man.

As far as the rest, I see you've reconciled the word "elect" that we find in different scriptures and our free will to choose God, and God's desire that anyone be saved that wants to be saved. And I couldn't agree with you more since THIS is the God I know and love - not one who sends people to hell without giving them the chance to be saved.

Every verse I read regarding predestination is in reference to man's state - not his being chosen before time to be saved - which I see you also agree with.

Man's state: IOW, those who choose to follow Christ are predestined to be conformed to Christ.
Romans 8:29
"For whom he FOREKNEW, He also predestined to BECOME CONFORMED to the image of His Son."
NASB

Also, I read that God chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love.
Ephesians 1:4

Could you just give me one verse that speaks of God choosing THE ELECT before the foundation of the world? I can't remember ever coming across this concept. I'm sure I missed it... I'm referring to the Elect as the Remnant - as you understand it.

I understand that there may not be a specific verse, but that you've studied this idea to arrive at this conclusion. (much like the Trinity or Godhead).

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for the reply. I don't want to discuss the whole reply in a single setting as they often then begin to become long and a lot is lost.

In you reply you did say..."You asked, "So I ask... what is that choice based upon?" The answer is Romans 10:9. A persons "choice" is based upon hearing the Gospel. We both know that the Holy Spirit of God is responsible for drawing a sinner to make a choice upon hearing the Gospel preached to him/her."

Your reply was Romans 10:9. OK, many hear the Gospel and believe while many hear the Gospel and don't believe. My original thought, question was an attempt to discuss why one person would accept and the other reject. As I have mentioned in earlier post I think if free-will is at work then the decision is based upon happenstance and life experience. I don't believe God leaves "free-will" choice up to happenstance and life experience. I think if God is drawing the sinner to Jesus that sinner will go to Jesus. Now, if one were to disagree the question is still pretty much the same...why would one accept or reject Gods drawing? What is that decision based upon?

I don't think I've ever been asked that question. A person's family background has a lot to do with the choice of that person to accept or reject. Has a person had a background of going to a church as a child growing up. Peer pressure is a big factor in teenagers and even in working adults. The highly educated tend to reject the simple free gift of Salvation.

The middle class seems to me are the most open to the Gospel. I hope this answers some of your questioning.

 

[GodsGrace]

Cygnus,
You and I both know Chopper's reply will not satisfy you.

NOTHING that is said can be accepted by you as to why someone would reject God's drawing. I said "drawing."

I guess YOU would say that God is not drawing that person and so he cannot accept God.

How are some reasons for rejecting God:

I want to hit the disco every Saturday night and drink a lot of booze and maybe do some ecstacy.
I work for a company that makes it easy to steal money, and I really need to buy some stuff.
My neighbor's wife looks cute, and I'm getting some ideas about her.
My parents are a pain in the neck and I wish they'd just go away and leave me alone.
So what if I lie about him in court? He deserves it for what he did to me.
There's no God, there's no hell - I'm okay.

Is this of any help to you?
Some people just want to do their own thing and don't want to consider God, and, in fact, are very happy to be atheists so they could be independent of God and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 14:1
"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God " They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good." NASB

Makes sense to me.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

I don't think I've ever been asked that question. A person's family background has a lot to do with the choice of that person to accept or reject. Has a person had a background of going to a church as a child growing up. Peer pressure is a big factor in teenagers and even in working adults. The highly educated tend to reject the simple free gift of Salvation.

The middle class seems to me are the most open to the Gospel. I hope this answers some of your questioning.

I would imagine you haven't been asked that question....I often ask it and don't get much of a reply. I find it to be a great question concerning free-will.
For example...if I'm highly educated...am I prone to reject the Gospel? What if I was the same person and didn't do so well in my education...are my chances better then of getting into heaven? In the words, am I saved by my amount of education? You know the answer is no to that question.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,
You and I both know Chopper's reply will not satisfy you.

NOTHING that is said can be accepted by you as to why someone would reject God's drawing. I said "drawing."

I guess YOU would say that God is not drawing that person and so he cannot accept God.

How are some reasons for rejecting God:

I want to hit the disco every Saturday night and drink a lot of booze and maybe do some ecstacy.
I work for a company that makes it easy to steal money, and I really need to buy some stuff.
My neighbor's wife looks cute, and I'm getting some ideas about her.
My parents are a pain in the neck and I wish they'd just go away and leave me alone.
So what if I lie about him in court? He deserves it for what he did to me.
There's no God, there's no hell - I'm okay.

Is this of any help to you?
Some people just want to do their own thing and don't want to consider God, and, in fact, are very happy to be atheists so they could be independent of God and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 14:1
"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God " They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good." NASB

Makes sense to me.

Wondering

That's all well and good...but what of the person who just wants to do their own thing? Why is that? You haven't answered that question yet.

Why has the fool said.... "There is no God "?

 

[GodsGrace]

I would imagine you haven't been asked that question....I often ask it and don't get much of a reply. I find it to be a great question concerning free-will.
For example...if I'm highly educated...am I prone to reject the Gospel? What if I was the same person and didn't do so well in my education...are my chances better then of getting into heaven? In the words, am I saved by my amount of education? You know the answer is no to that question.

Cygnus,
You know very well you've asked me this two times already and I've answered it very honestly, two times.

Maybe you forgot this because you don't really care about the answer?
When we don't really care about an answer - we tend to discard it.
This is also true if we don't agree with it.

So, yes, I HAVE been asked this question, and by YOU and on TWO different occasions.

Why is it a great question concerning free will?
Let's see:
Are there highly educated believers in Christ?
YES.

Are there persons who didn't do so well in their education believers in Christ?
YES.

Okay. So you already knew the answer to your question would be NO.
So why did you ask it?

Do you understand that if God condemns people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved, He is a mean God and has no justice and no love?

Please don't repeat about Adam and Eve and how we're all born condemned already. Everybody on this forum knows this.

Please answer my question in a different way. How is God just and loving if He predestines some to hell through no fault of their own? Why would He NOT give them a chance to be saved?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That's all well and good...but what of the person who just wants to do their own thing? Why is that? You haven't answered that question yet.

Why has the fool said.... "There is no God "?

Because he's a fool.
Because he wants to do his own thing.
But the biggest reason of all is:
Because he's decided to follow satan instead of God.
And that's because he has A CHOICE.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,
Thanks for such a complete reply.

A limited atonement limits God and Man.

As far as the rest, I see you've reconciled the word "elect" that we find in different scriptures and our free will to choose God, and God's desire that anyone be saved that wants to be saved. And I couldn't agree with you more since THIS is the God I know and love - not one who sends people to hell without giving them the chance to be saved.

Every verse I read regarding predestination is in reference to man's state - not his being chosen before time to be saved - which I see you also agree with.

Man's state: IOW, those who choose to follow Christ are predestined to be conformed to Christ.
Romans 8:29
"For whom he FOREKNEW, He also predestined to BECOME CONFORMED to the image of His Son."
NASB

Also, I read that God chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love.
Ephesians 1:4

Could you just give me one verse that speaks of God choosing THE ELECT before the foundation of the world? I can't remember ever coming across this concept. I'm sure I missed it... I'm referring to the Elect as the Remnant - as you understand it.

I understand that there may not be a specific verse, but that you've studied this idea to arrive at this conclusion. (much like the Trinity or Godhead).

Wondering

Thank you for your reply and questions. You are right, in that God choosing the Elect before the foundations of the world were laid is not clearly displayed in Scriptures. It is rather Christian doctrine based on many verses combined. I'll suggest one Scripture, in answer to your request for one. It is....1Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Now, the word "foreknowledge" implies "before" so we ask, before what. The subject is "elect" and the subject of election is always before our time began. For this concept, look at my favorite passage of Scripture on this subject....Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

I guess that if anyone who is going to debate foreknowledge, they'll have to explain how God knew Jeremiah before he was born. Therefore, the word Elect implies those who God chose before time began, certain men, Abraham, Moses, Noah, the Disciples who became the Apostles and eventually Jesus, the Christ of God.

You also asked about the "Remnant" of God. Here is a passage that helps....
Romans 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

It seems to me that God has always had a special group of men and women in the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant. These people have been pre-chosen by Almighty God to be His remnant out of the mass of humanity to represent God's attributes of power and authority over the workings of man and fallen angels.

I wish to answer any question that you might have. I hope this helps. Bless you my friend.

 

[Chopper]

Cygnus,
You and I both know Chopper's reply will not satisfy you.

NOTHING that is said can be accepted by you as to why someone would reject God's drawing. I said "drawing."

I guess YOU would say that God is not drawing that person and so he cannot accept God.

How are some reasons for rejecting God:

I want to hit the disco every Saturday night and drink a lot of booze and maybe do some ecstacy.
I work for a company that makes it easy to steal money, and I really need to buy some stuff.
My neighbor's wife looks cute, and I'm getting some ideas about her.
My parents are a pain in the neck and I wish they'd just go away and leave me alone.
So what if I lie about him in court? He deserves it for what he did to me.
There's no God, there's no hell - I'm okay.

Is this of any help to you?
Some people just want to do their own thing and don't want to consider God, and, in fact, are very happy to be atheists so they could be independent of God and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 14:1
"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God " They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good." NASB

Makes sense to me.

Wondering

Hey, makes sense to me as well. Thanks for sticking up for me. It's good when I know someone that I like very much, has my back.....Love You.

 

[Chopper]

I would imagine you haven't been asked that question....I often ask it and don't get much of a reply. I find it to be a great question concerning free-will.
For example...if I'm highly educated...am I prone to reject the Gospel? What if I was the same person and didn't do so well in my education...are my chances better then of getting into heaven? In the words, am I saved by my amount of education? You know the answer is no to that question.

Very good my friend. Look at this verse....
Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

I know that you're familiar with this story. Lets say, this rich young man went to Harvard and got a great education and became a famous Lawyer and eventually a U.S. Congressman. Based on what you and I know about Lawyers and Congressmen, I doubt that this man will choose a life serving Christ rather than his dreams. What's your thoughts?

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,
You know very well you've asked me this two times already and I've answered it very honestly, two times.

Maybe you forgot this because you don't really care about the answer?
When we don't really care about an answer - we tend to discard it.
This is also true if we don't agree with it.

So, yes, I HAVE been asked this question, and by YOU and on TWO different occasions.

Why is it a great question concerning free will?
Let's see:
Are there highly educated believers in Christ?
YES.

Are there persons who didn't do so well in their education believers in Christ?
YES.

Okay. So you already knew the answer to your question would be NO.
So why did you ask it?

Do you understand that if God condemns people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved, He is a mean God and has no justice and no love?

Please don't repeat about Adam and Eve and how we're all born condemned already. Everybody on this forum knows this.

Please answer my question in a different way. How is God just and loving if He predestines some to hell through no fault of their own? Why would He NOT give them a chance to be saved?

Wondering

Let me say this...you may have replied, BUT, didn't answer. I trust you understand the difference.

In your post you said..."Do you understand that if God condemns people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved, He is a mean God and has no justice and no love?"
To that I have to ask, where does the bible teach this? I believe it's your feeling, opinion.
You do know God isn't required to save anyone. Salvation isn't justice. Justice is the wages of our sins. Death. Rom 6:23. Salvation is God offfering His mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. Rom 9:18

 

[Cygnus]

Because he's a fool.
Because he wants to do his own thing.
But the biggest reason of all is:
Because he's decided to follow satan instead of God.
And that's because he has A CHOICE.

Wondering

Edited
What is it that makes a person want to do their own thing? What thought process drive this?
You go on and on about CHOICE...but never give a reason for the choices. You have provided no decision making technique that you base your "free-will" on.

 

[Cygnus]

Very good my friend. Look at this verse....
Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

I know that you're familiar with this story. Lets say, this rich young man went to Harvard and got a great education and became a famous Lawyer and eventually a U.S. Congressman. Based on what you and I know about Lawyers and Congressmen, I doubt that this man will choose a life serving Christ rather than his dreams. What's your thoughts?

My thoughts....Concerning a "free-will" choice for Jesus....The rich man who went to Harvard in your scenario didn't receive Jesus because the decision to reject Jesus was based upon the happenstance of his life.
I don't think God places an individual in a life situation and says....good luck. I hope your life situations are conducive to accepting Jesus. I hope you hear a good preacher someday, but if not, oh well. Free-will alone doesn't work. The situation of life requires a sovereign God who has providence over your life. A God that is going to save you and makes sure it will happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for your reply and questions. You are right, in that God choosing the Elect before the foundations of the world were laid is not clearly displayed in Scriptures. It is rather Christian doctrine based on many verses combined. I'll suggest one Scripture, in answer to your request for one. It is....1Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Now, the word "foreknowledge" implies "before" so we ask, before what. The subject is "elect" and the subject of election is always before our time began. For this concept, look at my favorite passage of Scripture on this subject....Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

I guess that if anyone who is going to debate foreknowledge, they'll have to explain how God knew Jeremiah before he was born. Therefore, the word Elect implies those who God chose before time began, certain men, Abraham, Moses, Noah, the Disciples who became the Apostles and eventually Jesus, the Christ of God.

You also asked about the "Remnant" of God. Here is a passage that helps....
Romans 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

It seems to me that God has always had a special group of men and women in the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant. These people have been pre-chosen by Almighty God to be His remnant out of the mass of humanity to represent God's attributes of power and authority over the workings of man and fallen angels.

I wish to answer any question that you might have. I hope this helps. Bless you my friend.

I also like to use Jeremiah 1:5 to show that God has foreknowledge. He is omniscient and knows all - past, present and future. To God one day is as a thousand years.
2 Peter 3:8

I know about the remnant, that will always exist, as it did for every exile.

The election idea is interesting. I've never had a problem when OSAS persons bring up Pharoah. I've always maintained that God could do whatever He so wills to do. It's just that He doesn't make a habit of it.
I see that to you the "remnant" also would include the Patriarchs and others.

Thanks Chopper!

Wondering