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Predestination and Calvinism

This is interesting to me. I like your thinking and I agree with it. Do you mind if I pick your brain a little? Here's the thing. In my belief system of the Elect, (those who God determines before the world began, to save them as His Remnant) God does exactly what you said. "The situation of life requires a sovereign God who has providence over your life. A God that is going to save you and makes sure it will happen" This was your statement. Now, do you understand my thinking at this point?

That might explain the "elect believers", but how does it relate to the "general call believers" and why they might be granted the ability to receive Jesus?
What causes God change of heart towards them so they could accept the general call? Is it the prayers of the believers asking God to save a person who is not of the elect?
 
You posted that carm said "If one does not persevere, then they were never saved to begin with, correct?"
I looked and didn't see that. In fact the word persevere wasn't even used on that page...
now, Perseverance of the Saints was used...but not in the way you described it.
No I did not say Carm said it. I said that Calvinism says it. I posted Carm as an information site as to what TULIP says.
Perseverance of the Saints is that one WILL persevere and be saved [OSAS]. One cannot have ever been saved, if they don't persevere. Thus 'never saved to begin with.'

That's all I will say about it. I will not blame God for the evil things that men do.
I do not believe that God foreordain Adam and Eve to sin.
 
That might explain the "elect believers", but how does it relate to the "general call believers" and why they might be granted the ability to receive Jesus?
What causes God change of heart towards them so they could accept the general call? Is it the prayers of the believers asking God to save a person who is not of the elect?

Good question. Do you remember me saying that I've always been a student of Calvinism? Well, once I devoured his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" and, withdrew from "Reformed Baptist Organization" The idea that God willed some to be saved and some to be lost, really bothered me.

Now, it is true that God willed that some would be lost. Example: Pharaoh, Judas, just a few in biblical history. But not the mass of humanity as Calvin proposed. Romans 9 covers some of this....

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


So, we have the Elect of whom God Himself chose. At some point, God will see to it that they come in contact with the Gospel and "irresistible grace" from God will cause these ones to believe and be saved.

Now we have the "General Call" of the Gospel. Calvin, for what ever the reason, excluded the mass of humanity that he proposed, would not be saved. I decided that was wrong so I went to the Lord for the answer.. John 3:16 was His answer and the Holy Spirit implanted the idea and words, General Call of the Gospel where everyone has a choice to accept or reject.

Now, I had another theological problem. OSAS. Calvin's "perseverance of the saints" as it has to do with the Elect is true according to....

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Even though these were the Disciples, it goes for all the Elect....My problem was, what about the Scriptures that say a person can loose their Salvation if they don't stay true to the Faith until the end? See these Scriptures....

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"


There are more of the same in Hebrews, one in Matthew and one in Luke.

I believe that, since the Elect can't loose their Salvation, those who come thru the General Call can. They also are the ones mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 as a part of a great apostasy.

Something to think about friend.
 
I do not believe that God foreordain Adam and Eve to sin.
God could have foreseen everything, particularly vanity forming in the creation, before the creation was even created, and then pre-ordained that He should use it to His own ends. Romans 8:20. 1 John 3:8.
 
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Good question. Do you remember me saying that I've always been a student of Calvinism? Well, once I devoured his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" and, withdrew from "Reformed Baptist Organization" The idea that God willed some to be saved and some to be lost, really bothered me.

Now, it is true that God willed that some would be lost. Example: Pharaoh, Judas, just a few in biblical history. But not the mass of humanity as Calvin proposed. Romans 9 covers some of this....

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


So, we have the Elect of whom God Himself chose. At some point, God will see to it that they come in contact with the Gospel and "irresistible grace" from God will cause these ones to believe and be saved.

Now we have the "General Call" of the Gospel. Calvin, for what ever the reason, excluded the mass of humanity that he proposed, would not be saved. I decided that was wrong so I went to the Lord for the answer.. John 3:16 was His answer and the Holy Spirit implanted the idea and words, General Call of the Gospel where everyone has a choice to accept or reject.

Now, I had another theological problem. OSAS. Calvin's "perseverance of the saints" as it has to do with the Elect is true according to....

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Even though these were the Disciples, it goes for all the Elect....My problem was, what about the Scriptures that say a person can loose their Salvation if they don't stay true to the Faith until the end? See these Scriptures....

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"


There are more of the same in Hebrews, one in Matthew and one in Luke.

I believe that, since the Elect can't loose their Salvation, those who come thru the General Call can. They also are the ones mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 as a part of a great apostasy.

Something to think about friend.

You said a lot.
Your post said...."General Call of the Gospel where everyone has a choice to accept or reject."....Once again we go full circle. The choice to accept or reject. That takes us right back to the question I have asked, why do some people choose while others reject.

In your post you decided it would be wrong for God not to save a mass of humanity. I can ask the age old question..what about the mass of humanity that never heard the Gospel? Those people that never had the opportunity to accept Jesus?
I don't think God is obligated to save anyone.

The topic then switched to OSAS...and some scripture was presented. Heb 3:12. In my opinion if you read loss of salvation into that verse then it is being read out of context. I've read several different takes on that verse from partaking in Christ is what we are doing day to day, that is, enjoying the benefits of Christ ....too.... if they don't hold stedfast until the end they were never believers to begin with.
Then again the scripture is amongst scripture that reminds us the first generation of Israelites that left Egypt hardened their hearts against the Lord and were not allowed to enter the Promised Land.
 
Cygnus,
This is in reference to your post no. 425.
I defer to Chopper and I know he'll be answering your important questions.

I'm only here because I may have misunderstood your question to me a little bit.
Were you asking about those that never heard the gospel? This was not made clear to me.
(You just kept speaking to those who reject God - not those who never heard of Him.)

Again, I defer to Chopper.
I'll only say that, YES, I DO believe God is a just God and will judge all with justice and love.
He is just even to those that never heard the gospel message.

Romans 1:20
From the beginning God's power has been made clear to all men. It's visible to all that someone more powerful than we are, created all that we see around us. It's the spirit of God within man that allows him to see this creation and its Creator.

Romans 2:14-15
In fact start with verse 13. Even the gentiles, those without God, are capable of following the law by instinct and conscience. They thus are a "law unto themselves". IOW, God will judge them by what they knew, by the instinctive law they followed because it was in their heart. God always looks at the heart.

Psalm 19:1-4
The very heavens tell of the glory of God for those who have a heart to "hear". Their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. There is no speech, there are no words - but the work and glory of God is visible.

So, you see Cygnus, God is a just God, He is a loving God, He will judge all according to His nature, attributes, and character. His character and His nature is one of LOVE. He will NOT send people to hell unjustly. Unjustly means that He would send them to hell without giving them a chance to be saved.

He desires that ALL be saved, - those who will come to believe that God exists, whether through hearing the gospel or admiring the heavens He created - and will decide to follow that God and love Him back.
(and you know that by ALL I'm not alluding to universalism).

Wondering
 
Cygnus,
This is in reference to your post no. 425.
I defer to Chopper and I know he'll be answering your important questions.

I'm only here because I may have misunderstood your question to me a little bit.
Were you asking about those that never heard the gospel? This was not made clear to me.
(You just kept speaking to those who reject God - not those who never heard of Him.)

Again, I defer to Chopper.
I'll only say that, YES, I DO believe God is a just God and will judge all with justice and love.
He is just even to those that never heard the gospel message.

Romans 1:20
From the beginning God's power has been made clear to all men. It's visible to all that someone more powerful than we are, created all that we see around us. It's the spirit of God within man that allows him to see this creation and its Creator.

Romans 2:14-15
In fact start with verse 13. Even the gentiles, those without God, are capable of following the law by instinct and conscience. They thus are a "law unto themselves". IOW, God will judge them by what they knew, by the instinctive law they followed because it was in their heart. God always looks at the heart.

Psalm 19:1-4
The very heavens tell of the glory of God for those who have a heart to "hear". Their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. There is no speech, there are no words - but the work and glory of God is visible.

So, you see Cygnus, God is a just God, He is a loving God, He will judge all according to His nature, attributes, and character. His character and His nature is one of LOVE. He will NOT send people to hell unjustly. Unjustly means that He would send them to hell without giving them a chance to be saved.

He desires that ALL be saved, - those who will come to believe that God exists, whether through hearing the gospel or admiring the heavens He created - and will decide to follow that God and love Him back.
(and you know that by ALL I'm not alluding to universalism).

Wondering

Using the very same book you just quoted from...Romans....I post the following:
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I shouldn't have to say anymore as you know "those who never heard of Him" have also fallen short. They have the wage to pay.

Now, Romans 3:23 does use the word ALL.....and some people like to use the word ALL to mean every single human...so that would include those that have never heard.
 
You said a lot.
Your post said...."General Call of the Gospel where everyone has a choice to accept or reject."....Once again we go full circle. The choice to accept or reject. That takes us right back to the question I have asked, why do some people choose while others reject.

In your post you decided it would be wrong for God not to save a mass of humanity. I can ask the age old question..what about the mass of humanity that never heard the Gospel? Those people that never had the opportunity to accept Jesus?
I don't think God is obligated to save anyone.

The topic then switched to OSAS...and some scripture was presented. Heb 3:12. In my opinion if you read loss of salvation into that verse then it is being read out of context. I've read several different takes on that verse from partaking in Christ is what we are doing day to day, that is, enjoying the benefits of Christ ....too.... if they don't hold stedfast until the end they were never believers to begin with.
Then again the scripture is amongst scripture that reminds us the first generation of Israelites that left Egypt hardened their hearts against the Lord and were not allowed to enter the Promised Land.

Thank you for your reply. I realize that I responded with a rather long discourse. I just wanted you to know where I was coming from. As far as those who have never heard the Gospel presented to them personally, I believe that our God understands this and has, put a certain power of observation into nature that exposes His creative ability that requires even a native of a tribe in a distant land or even an uneducated person in our mountains to look up to the heavens and say, "to the God who created all of that, please save me." I believe that I'll see that person in Glory some day.

This Scripture context is against homosexuality, but the information about nature can be a Gospel message in itself....
Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"


I don't think anyone can accurately answer your question about why a person would accept or reject Jesus. I'm curious as to what you think about this?

Just the fact that God states in His Word that He's not willing that anyone perish, wouldn't you say that there is some obligation on God's part that He would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus?
 
I don't think anyone can accurately answer your question about why a person would accept or reject Jesus.
Actually Jesus told us why some reject Him.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19,20).
 
Well actually Calvinists do believe that everything is pre-determined (decreed). They essentially distort the sovereignty of God.
How does God declare the end from the beginning without everything being pre-determined? Isaiah 46:10. Matthew 26:34.
 
Actually Jesus told us why some reject Him.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19,20).
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
 
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Right. Everything is subject to God. No one seems to understand. It's like this.

You're a tenant, and you owe Him rent. You don't get to decide to pay. You don't get to pretend he doesn't exist. No one is giving you a choice to believe. This is what God is saying - I'm coming to collect. You treated my servants poorly when they went to collect what was mine. You put them to death. You put my Son to death. Now you're going to pay.

It's this human, egocentric view of the world, God can't force me to do anything, I can believe God or not. If I choose to believe God then it is my choice and it's my choice whatever I decide. I might let God save me, or maybe I won't.

Really? Tell it to God.
 
Right. Everything is subject to God. No one seems to understand. It's like this.

You're a tenant, and you owe Him rent. You don't get to decide to pay. You don't get to pretend he doesn't exist. No one is giving you a choice to believe. This is what God is saying - I'm coming to collect. You treated my servants poorly when they went to collect what was mine. You put them to death. You put my Son to death. Now you're going to pay.

It's this human, egocentric view of the world, God can't force me to do anything, I can believe God or not. If I choose to believe God then it is my choice and it's my choice whatever I decide. I might let God save me, or maybe I won't.

Really? Tell it to God.
Good analogy. It's only through an impure imagery of God that one can hold a resentment that He would force His will upon us and assign us our stations underneath him. You described an egocentricity that would have to think they know better than God for such a mindset to exist.
 
Thank you for your reply. I realize that I responded with a rather long discourse. I just wanted you to know where I was coming from. As far as those who have never heard the Gospel presented to them personally, I believe that our God understands this and has, put a certain power of observation into nature that exposes His creative ability that requires even a native of a tribe in a distant land or even an uneducated person in our mountains to look up to the heavens and say, "to the God who created all of that, please save me." I believe that I'll see that person in Glory some day.

This Scripture context is against homosexuality, but the information about nature can be a Gospel message in itself....
Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"


I don't think anyone can accurately answer your question about why a person would accept or reject Jesus. I'm curious as to what you think about this?

Just the fact that God states in His Word that He's not willing that anyone perish, wouldn't you say that there is some obligation on God's part that He would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus?

I've often wondered about that....salvation of people who never heard of Jesus. Jesus was the creator and realizing there was a creator (Jesus) that they believed in may have been enough faith to save them....on the other hand, they may not be of the elect and Gods soverign providence placed them there.

You also stated...."Just the fact that God states in His Word that He's not willing that anyone perish, wouldn't you say that there is some obligation on God's part that He would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus"?


I would say God has no obligation to save anyone. What do you think about that? Still I have to ask, who is the anyone you mentioned? What is meant by willing? This verse is to "open" right now for me to use it dogmatically. I can read it to say God is not willing for any to perish to mean...all people will be saved. But we know this isn't so as people are mentioned in the bible not being saved. The Bible will not contradict itself.
If God would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus"....then why do some not respond? Now were back to that question we can't seem to answer to allow free-will to work.
 
Actually Jesus told us why some reject Him.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19,20).

Good answer which supports election rather than free-will. Mans free-will chooses darkness rather than Christ....unless God steps in and regenerated them.
 
Cygnus,
Malachi is trying to answer your unanswerable question.
(EDIT)

It distorts the character of God. God is a loving God and would not send anyone to hell of His own volition.
I will repeat this to you until it sinks in.

Mathew 15:9
We are not to follow the teaching of one man, but are to follow the teachings of all that Jesus said and all that Paul said, and also the other writers. They did not say that God picks and chooses who will be saved.

God wills that all men be saved doesn't mean that He's going to save all men.
It means that it would be GOD'S DESIRE that all men be saved, but not all will
because they will not CHOOSE TO.

Why would this scrpture exist, if God had already chosen who would be saved? It doesn't even make COMMON sense. 2 Peter 3:9.

"not wishing for any to perish."
He doesn't WISH for any to perish, but He knows some will.

You know, like I WISH it would be sunny today - but it might rain. My wishing for sun, doesn't force the sun to shine.

God WISHES that all would be saved - that doesn't mean that all will BECAUSE OF OUR FREE WILL.

What did Jesus mean about the wide gate and the narrow gate?
Few are those who find the narrow gate.
WHY am I looking for the narrow gate if God has already predestined me for salvation??

In my next post, I'd like to say why this is so important to me, (which is why I'm still on this thread) and maybe to all of us who believe as I do.

But must go now.

Wondering
 
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