Predestination and Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

Let me say this...you may have replied, BUT, didn't answer. I trust you understand the difference.

In your post you said..."Do you understand that if God condemns people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved, He is a mean God and has no justice and no love?"
To that I have to ask, where does the bible teach this? I believe it's your feeling, opinion.
You do know God isn't required to save anyone. Salvation isn't justice. Justice is the wages of our sins. Death. Rom 6:23. Salvation is God offfering His mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. Rom 9:18

You're answering a question with a question.
I never did this to you.
No fair.

And could you please read Romans 6:23 again.
How do you get from that the idea that God will have mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy.

Justice is NOT the wages of our sin.
DEATH is the wages of sin.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

How do you get from that the idea that God will have mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy.

Romans 9:18 is what my post said. Please go back and click on it.

Justice is NOT the wages of our sin.
DEATH is the wages of sin.

A just God requires death as the wages of sin. Death is the justice every human deserves Rom 6:23.

 

[GodsGrace]

Edited
What is it that makes a person want to do their own thing? What thought process drive this?
You go on and on about CHOICE...but never give a reason for the choices. You have provided no decision making technique that you base your "free-will" on.

Decision making technique?
I like
Proverbs 3:5

And Psalm 40
40
I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock, making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the Lord.
NASB

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Decision making technique?
I like
Proverbs 3:5

And Psalm 40
40
I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock, making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the Lord.
NASB

Wondering

Such wonderful verses. Thanks for posting them. When I read Psalm 40....I see God doing all the work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 9:18 is what my post said. Please go back and click on it.

Sorry, I missed that.
The famous Pharaoh verse. Please see my above post to Chopper.
God can do WHATEVER HE WANTS TO.
This does not mean he breaks the laws of nature, at any given moment, on a regular basis.
God let's the world function the way He set it up to function, unless, for a very specific reason, He allows something to happen to further His plan. The death of Lazarus would fall into this catagory. Jesus waited for Lazarus to die so He could give the glory to God Father.
This is not a problem Cygnus.

Another way to understand "hardness of heart" is that God abandons a person to his own obstinate wishes.

A just God requires death as the wages of sin. Death is the justice every human deserves Rom 6:23.

A just God will allow me to choose Jesus' salvific work and will not condemn me to hell based on nothing.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Such wonderful verses. Thanks for posting them. When I read Psalm 40....I see God doing all the work.

YOU cry out
HE does the work of taking you out of the miry clay.

You wanted to know how one comes to God -
YOU CRY OUT and accept God's goodness for yourself.

I could also choose NOT to cry out and not have Him be a part of my life.
A person ALLOWS God to work in their life.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

A just God will allow me to choose Jesus' salvific work and will not condemn me to hell based on nothing.

Wondering

In the above are you saying people get condemned to hell based upon nothing?

 

[Cygnus]

YOU cry out
HE does the work of taking you out of the miry clay.

You wanted to know how one comes to God -
YOU CRY OUT and accept God's goodness for yourself.

I could also choose NOT to cry out and not have Him be a part of my life.
A person ALLOWS God to work in their life.

Wondering

What is the crying out for? Salvation? Deliverence from something? A cry out of praise?

 

[GodsGrace]

I give up Cygnus.



Wondering

 

[Deborah13]

First I must say that discussing the scripture has nothing to do with defending individual people. It is defending the Gospel, and that is what each one of us attempt to do. It is not personal, as we love each other by God's grace.

In reference to 1 Peter 1:2. No one could have received this letter from Peter for themselves individually because they couldn't know if they were a predestined elect. Right now, under this theology of Calvinism, no one can know if they are elected or not, until they get to heaven. Know one can know if they will persevere or not because they have no choice in the matter.
If God has predestined a man to become apostate, then he has no choice but to become apostate.

So how could Peter, in all honesty, have written this letter, which would be passed around and survive to this day for millions and millions of people to read, if the elect could not know if they were predestined or not? Because Peter wasn't saying that all those individual people were predestined. It's just the same as what Paul says in Romans. God by His foreknowledge, predestined [foreordained] that He would have a chosen people, the elect, that would be made up of not just Jews but would include Gentiles, that were predestined by the foreknowledge [fore plan] of God to come to the knowledge of God, and receive salvation in Christ. Jew and Gentile in Christ. The gates of hell could not stop it.

This is an ongoing theme throughout the whole Bible that was revealed in the NT. It is the recurring argument that is presented to the Jews that believed they were they only chosen people of God. The Gentiles were coming from backgrounds of many gods, not having the Holy Scriptures of the OT. They too had to be convinced that the God of the Jews, the 'unknown' God, was also their God.

 

[Cygnus]

I give up Cygnus.



Wondering

That was a serious question. I don't think the verse supports free-will. It seems to me you simply assumed crying out was a plea..or your free-will choice...for salvation.
Luke 19:40 says....He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

Would those stones be crying out for salvation?

 

[Cygnus]

If God has predestined a man to become apostate, then he has no choice but to become apostate.

The above sentence caught my attention. People don't become apostate, they are apostate. Rom 3:23.
People are already condemned. John 3:18.

That's the biblical reality. From that group of people God chooses to have mercy on some of them. Rom 9:15

 

[Deborah13]

A just God requires death as the wages of sin. Death is the justice every human deserves Rom 6:23.

Calvinism makes God the cause of all sin, beginning in the Garden. The 'Fall' was God's doing, making Him the cause of all sin in the world. Then this God punishes people for sinning, when He caused it to begin with?
If I believed that I would not serve this god. In fact, I wouldn't believe in God at all. I would be an atheist.

 

[Deborah13]

The above sentence caught my attention. People don't become apostate, they are apostate. Rom 3:23.
People are already condemned. John 3:18.

That's the biblical reality. From that group of people God chooses to have mercy on some of them. Rom 9:15

Oh yes, I forgot that part of Calvinism, 'never saved to begin with'.

 

[Cygnus]

Calvinism makes God the cause of all sin, beginning in the Garden. The 'Fall' was God's doing, making Him the cause of all sin in the world. Then this God punishes people for sinning, when He caused it to begin with?
If I believed that I would not serve this god. In fact, I wouldn't believe in God at all. I would be an atheist.

Calvinism says no such thing. I think you should justify your remark or remove it.

 

[Cygnus]

Oh yes, I forgot that part of Calvinism, 'never saved to begin with'.

I posted scripture.....what the bible says. You replied back with a "feeling".

 

[Deborah13]

I posted scripture.....what the bible says. You replied back with a "feeling".

I was not quoting scripture, or how I 'feel', but what Calvinism says. I was not making a argument either way.
If one does not persevere, then they were never saved to begin with, correct?
And they have no choice in the matter because God chose not to save them, correct?
https://carm.org/calvinism

 

[Cygnus]

I was not quoting scripture, or how I 'feel', but what Calvinism says. I was not making a argument either way.
If one does not persevere, then they were never saved to begin with, correct?
And they have no choice in the matter because God chose not to save them, correct?
https://carm.org/calvinism

You posted that carm said "If one does not persevere, then they were never saved to begin with, correct?"

I looked and didn't see that. In fact the word persevere wasn't even used on that page...
now, Perseverance of the Saints was used...but not in the way you described it.

 

[Chopper]

My thoughts....Concerning a "free-will" choice for Jesus....The rich man who went to Harvard in your scenario didn't receive Jesus because the decision to reject Jesus was based upon the happenstance of his life.
I don't think God places an individual in a life situation and says....good luck. I hope your life situations are conducive to accepting Jesus. I hope you hear a good preacher someday, but if not, oh well. Free-will alone doesn't work. The situation of life requires a sovereign God who has providence over your life. A God that is going to save you and makes sure it will happen.

This is interesting to me. I like your thinking and I agree with it. Do you mind if I pick your brain a little? Here's the thing. In my belief system of the Elect, (those who God determines before the world began, to save them as His Remnant) God does exactly what you said. "The situation of life requires a sovereign God who has providence over your life. A God that is going to save you and makes sure it will happen" This was your statement. Now, do you understand my thinking at this point?

 

[Chopper]

I also like to use Jeremiah 1:5 to show that God has foreknowledge. He is omniscient and knows all - past, present and future. To God one day is as a thousand years.
2 Peter 3:8

I know about the remnant, that will always exist, as it did for every exile.

The election idea is interesting. I've never had a problem when OSAS persons bring up Pharoah. I've always maintained that God could do whatever He so wills to do. It's just that He doesn't make a habit of it.
I see that to you the "remnant" also would include the Patriarchs and others.

Thanks Chopper!

Wondering

You are right, my awesome friend.