Predestination and Calvinism

[Chopper]

I've often wondered about that....salvation of people who never heard of Jesus. Jesus was the creator and realizing there was a creator (Jesus) that they believed in may have been enough faith to save them....on the other hand, they may not be of the elect and Gods soverign providence placed them there.

You also stated...."Just the fact that God states in His Word that He's not willing that anyone perish, wouldn't you say that there is some obligation on God's part that He would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus"?

I would say God has no obligation to save anyone. What do you think about that? Still I have to ask, who is the anyone you mentioned? What is meant by willing? This verse is to "open" right now for me to use it dogmatically. I can read it to say God is not willing for any to perish to mean...all people will be saved. But we know this isn't so as people are mentioned in the bible not being saved. The Bible will not contradict itself.
If God would cause His Spirit to woo or call all people to Jesus"....then why do some not respond? Now were back to that question we can't seem to answer to allow free-will to work.

I think that the closest that I can come to answering this great question that we're trying to answer would be, the "sphere of influence" that each person grows up in, will determine his/her choice to either be favorable to the Gospel, or hostile. There are limits to that even. An example is in my home growing up....

My Mother was saved but Methodist who don't push their beliefs on their children. They make them go to church and leave the rest up to God and the child. My Dad was not saved but attended the Methodist Church with my Mom, Sister, and brother. The five of us. At the age of 34, I was the first to be saved in a Baptist Church, went to Bible College and became a Baptist Pastor. My Mother began to come alive in her Salvation to be more vocal. Eventually, my Dad got saved at the age of 74. My Sister got saved at the age of 70. NOW!! my brother has always been hostile to the Gospel. Why? I have no idea. The last time I spoke with him about it, he said, I don't need to be saved, I'm fine just the way I am.

So my idea of sphere of influence, can be different for different people and that's where your thinking comes in. Why??

What causes to Brothers to grow up in the same family and yet turn out completely different when it came to religious thought. This may be interesting to you Cygnus. For at least 10 years before I was saved, I felt that God was trying to communicate with me but I didn't know how to respond. I would think of speaking to some strange pastor somewhere about it but always chickened out.

About ten years later, a friend of mine invited my Wife, Children and I to his Baptist Church and my Wife and I got saved. About two months later, my two Kids got saved at a "Word of Life" teen retreat.

Just my thoughts. Do they make any sense to you?

 

[Deborah13]

About two months later, my two Kids got saved at a "Word of Life" teen retreat.

Are you referring to Word of Life Bible camp in upper state NY?
My kids went there two summers when they were in elementary school and we lived in CT. What an awesome place.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree - which is why I believe the doctrine of single predestination.
What I'd like to know is - why do you want to object to God saving anyone of His own volition ?

I said that God would not send anyone to HELL of His own volition. A person must WANT to go to hell.

W

 

[Chopper]

Are you referring to Word of Life Bible camp in upper state NY?
My kids went there two summers when they were in elementary school and we lived in CT. What an awesome place.

Yes. Word of Life has always been a huge blessing to many folk in New England. I used to go to Pastor's Conference's quite often.

 

[childeye]

I pray for those that don't believe, with the expressed hope that God can save them. 1 Timothy 2:4.
I don't want to presume to know better than God, but I honestly don't know how to intercede without any attempt to move God. People say that we have freewill and you cannot force anyone to believe. They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I say that I will stuff that water down his throat screaming LIVE YOU STUPID HORSE!!

But alas, who am I to fight against God? If He has the intention of removing the dross or burning dead wood, who am I to know better than the All-Knowing? What is this freewill so stubborn as to not drink and live? It is vanity. Romans 8:20.

 

[Chopper]

I pray for those that don't believe, with the expressed hope that God can save them. 1 Timothy 2:4.
I don't want to presume to know better than God, but I honestly don't know how to intercede without any attempt to move God. People say that we have freewill and you cannot force anyone to believe. They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I say that I will stuff that water down his throat screaming LIVE YOU STUPID HORSE!! Can I give him a spiritual enema and get the water in that way?

But alas, who am I to fight against God? If He has the intention of removing the dross or burning dead wood, who am I to know better than the All-Knowing? What is this freewill so stubborn as to not drink and live? It is vanity. Romans 8:20.

Ha, Ha!! Thanks for that. Over the years I have witnessed to a lot of folk. I remember one guy who was giving me a hard time. He said, I'll have all by drinking buddies in hell with me. He was having a hard time lighting his cigarette with some matches. I took the matches, lit one and held it to his hand. After he jumped and swore at me, I said, hell will be hotter than that pal!!

 

[Deborah13]

I pray for those that don't believe, with the expressed hope that God can save them. 1 Timothy 2:4.
I don't want to presume to know better than God, but I honestly don't know how to intercede without any attempt to move God. People say that we have freewill and you cannot force anyone to believe. They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I say that I will stuff that water down his throat screaming LIVE YOU STUPID HORSE!!

But alas, who am I to fight against God? If He has the intention of removing the dross or burning dead wood, who am I to know better than the All-Knowing? What is this freewill so stubborn as to not drink and live? It is vanity. Romans 8:20.

Live you stupid horse!
Great post.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,
Malachi is trying to answer your unanswerable question.
It's unanswerable because YOU choose for it to be.
His answer would make a lot of sense if you believed the N.T. as it's presented to you.

But you prefer to believe a man born 1,500 years after Jesus died on the cross and who had a belief not shared by any of the early church Fathers. This belief was dismissed as heresy because it IS heresy.

It distorts the character of God. God is a loving God and would not send anyone to hell of His own volition.
I will repeat this to you until it sinks in.

Mathew 15:9
We are not to follow the teaching of one man, but are to follow the teachings of all that Jesus said and all that Paul said, and also the other writers. They did not say that God picks and chooses who will be saved.

God wills that all men be saved doesn't mean that He's going to save all men.
It means that it would be GOD'S DESIRE that all men be saved, but not all will
because they will not CHOOSE TO.

Why would this scrpture exist, if God had already chosen who would be saved? It doesn't even make COMMON sense. 2 Peter 3:9.

"not wishing for any to perish."
He doesn't WISH for any to perish, but He knows some will.

You know, like I WISH it would be sunny today - but it might rain. My wishing for sun, doesn't force the sun to shine.

God WISHES that all would be saved - that doesn't mean that all will BECAUSE OF OUR FREE WILL.

What did Jesus mean about the wide gate and the narrow gate?
Few are those who find the narrow gate.
WHY am I looking for the narrow gate if God has already predestined me for salvation??

In my next post, I'd like to say why this is so important to me, (which is why I'm still on this thread) and maybe to all of us who believe as I do.

But must go now.

Wondering

The question has an answer...but the free-willer choice people don't like it. They make their decision based upon their own personal life history....and to biblical it up they throw in a pinch of God wooing them. Despite the wooing they still filter the gospel through life's experience and choose to reject Gods call.

The gospel of the free-willer is based upon life's happenstance. If you were dealt a good hand that was conducive of recognizing Gods call...YEAH, you make it. Phew. But, if life is not favorable to Gods "draw"... well, you then know the end.

Now, if you have another explanation as to why one would choose to accept God or not..lets have it.

 

[Cygnus]

I think that the closest that I can come to answering this great question that we're trying to answer would be, the "sphere of influence" that each person grows up in, will determine his/her choice to either be favorable to the Gospel, or hostile. There are limits to that even. An example is in my home growing up....

My Mother was saved but Methodist who don't push their beliefs on their children. They make them go to church and leave the rest up to God and the child. My Dad was not saved but attended the Methodist Church with my Mom, Sister, and brother. The five of us. At the age of 34, I was the first to be saved in a Baptist Church, went to Bible College and became a Baptist Pastor. My Mother began to come alive in her Salvation to be more vocal. Eventually, my Dad got saved at the age of 74. My Sister got saved at the age of 70. NOW!! my brother has always been hostile to the Gospel. Why? I have no idea. The last time I spoke with him about it, he said, I don't need to be saved, I'm fine just the way I am.

So my idea of sphere of influence, can be different for different people and that's where your thinking comes in. Why??

What causes to Brothers to grow up in the same family and yet turn out completely different when it came to religious thought. This may be interesting to you Cygnus. For at least 10 years before I was saved, I felt that God was trying to communicate with me but I didn't know how to respond. I would think of speaking to some strange pastor somewhere about it but always chickened out.

About ten years later, a friend of mine invited my Wife, Children and I to his Baptist Church and my Wife and I got saved. About two months later, my two Kids got saved at a "Word of Life" teen retreat.

Just my thoughts. Do they make any sense to you?

At least someone is recognizing life happenstance...sphere of influence as you put it.
Where does my thinking come in? Election...pre-destination. If you were choosen by God prior to your death you will become a believer.
Sphere of influence in some instances has nothing to do with choosing God. I've heard of "nasty" rebellious people..anti-God to the core...who heard the gospel preached once and were saved. Why were they saved? They were elect, God opened their heart and the believed.
On the other hand salvation comes to people in all different flavors. We talked earlier about Gods soverign providence. It is God who places us in front of the Gospel...and opens our ears. I don't think we figure it out because we can't.

 

[GodsGrace]

The question has an answer...but the free-willer choice people don't like it. They make their decision based upon their own personal life history....and to biblical it up they throw in a pinch of God wooing them. Despite the wooing they still filter the gospel through life's experience and choose to reject Gods call.

The gospel of the free-willer is based upon life's happenstance. If you were dealt a good hand that was conducive of recognizing Gods call...YEAH, you make it. Phew. But, if life is not favorable to Gods "draw"... well, you then know the end.

Now, if you have another explanation as to why one would choose to accept God or not..lets have it.

Look what you said Cygnus:
If you were dealt a good hand that was conducive of recognizing Gods call...YEAH, you make it. Phew.

Do you realize that this is the belief held by YOU, and not by ME??

Apparently, since You are saved, YOU were dealt a good hand and have been picked by God to be saved.
YOU made it, phew!

Why do you think God predestined all those souls who aren't saved to hell?

We're all born lost and deserve nothing. I agree.

But what influenced God's choice for the one's predestined for hell?
Why did He pick THEM?

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Look what you said Cygnus:
If you were dealt a good hand that was conducive of recognizing Gods call...YEAH, you make it. Phew.

Do you realize that this is the belief held by YOU, and not by ME??

Apparently, since You are saved, YOU were dealt a good hand and have been picked by God to be saved.
YOU made it, phew!

Why do you think God predestined all those souls who aren't saved to hell?

We're all born lost and deserve nothing. I agree.

But what influenced God's choice for the one's predestined for hell?
Why did He pick THEM?

Wondering

The recognizing of Gods call...would have been the application of the free-will filter. Is it your view? You say not. Is is my view? Nope.

"Why do you think God predestined all those souls who aren't saved to hell?"...my answer, was it a predestination or justice?

To answer this question...
"But what influenced God's choice for the one's predestined for hell?
Why did He pick THEM?"

I have no idea.

 

[GodsGrace]

The recognizing of Gods call...would have been the application of the free-will filter. Is it your view? You say not. Is is my view? Nope.

"Why do you think God predestined all those souls who aren't saved to hell?"...my answer, was it a predestination or justice?

To answer this question...
"But what influenced God's choice for the one's predestined for hell?
Why did He pick THEM?"

I have no idea.

You quite honestly have said you have no idea as to why God would predestine someone to hell or on what He would base that choice.

This is a big problem Cygnus. God is not a God of confusion. God made man, He loves His creation. He said it was good, He gave man a helper, he gave him a beautiful garden to live in and God gave man the honor of naming all the animals because man is superior to them.

God had a plan from the beginning of time. He knew Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew evil would enter into man and man would acquire the sin nature.

So, being a just and loving God, He predestined a plan of salvation. He foreknew who would accept salvation and who would not. God predestined those who would accept salvation to be conformed unto the likeness of His Son.
His Son died to save us. To save all who wants to accept the free gift of salvation.

Ask yourself: Why would God pick some of the persons HE created and loves to go to heaven, and pick some of the persons HE created to go to hell?

God is not a God of confusion and the above is very confusing.
1 Corinthians 14:33

God does not want us to be confused regarding Him. He has done all He possibly could to let Himself be known. I've posted scripture on this several times for you. Romans 1:19-20 would be one.

God loves us:
Romans 5:8
1 John 4:9-11

Romans 6:23, which you have posted several times, is clear in stating that the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ.

So we are all born into death and are lost. But God's FREE GIFT to us is eternal salvation. A gift must be accepted. It's being offered, you are to accept.

Those who have never heard of Jesus are also born unrighteous. But, in their own way, they can come to know God - through His creation or through their own conscience. They can still accept to honor this God they do not really know and to be "good" people. Everyone has the choice to be good or bad - not just Christians. The blood of Jesus will also cover the sins of these people. God is a just and loving God.

God loves His creation - man.
1 John 3:1a
Romans 8:37-29
Psalm 86:15

How could He purposefully send someone to hell if He loves them?
Does He love His creation or not?

Wondering

 

[ivdavid]

I said that God would not send anyone to HELL of His own volition.

I got that. And I said I agreed with that. And since the doctrine of single predestination too upholds that God would not elect and predetermine to send anyone to HELL of His own volition, what is then your objection against that doctrine?

 

[GodsGrace]

I got that. And I said I agreed with that. And since the doctrine of single predestination too upholds that God would not elect and predetermine to send anyone to HELL of His own volition, what is then your objection against that doctrine?

I'm sorry Ivdavid. I don't understand your question.

If you are in agreement with predestination as understood from the beginning of the writing of the letters and which the original church agreed with, and you're calling it "single" predestination - okay.

I have no objection to this doctrine. God does not send one to hell - the person, by not choosing to be saved, sends himself to hell. He was given the opportunity to be saved, but did not accept it.

Double predestination - Calvin's theory - teaches that God decides who will be saved and who will be condemned.
THIS is what I cannot agree to.

Have I said something to make you believe the contrary?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha, Ha!! Thanks for that. Over the years I have witnessed to a lot of folk. I remember one guy who was giving me a hard time. He said, I'll have all by drinking buddies in hell with me. He was having a hard time lighting his cigarette with some matches. I took the matches, lit one and held it to his hand. After he jumped and swore at me, I said, hell will be hotter than that pal!!

Chopper,
What you say above seems to me to be the crux of the problem.
Many don't really believe that heaven or hell even exists.
If hell were a reality to them, they'd become a believer PRONTO!
Or, as I'd say: SUBITO!

Part of the problem is that we have a material world around us that is easy to see and feel.
Most people don't want to think about what they CANNOT see.
John 3:1-13 comes to mind.
John 3:3
John 3:6

Sometimes it's necessary to have all taken away from us and hit bottom before we can consider the supernatural.
Then we can come to know God and how good He is and that He is the distributor of all the good that we see around us.
Then, once we understand how good God is, we can no longer accept that He would send anyone to a place far away from Him unless they chose to go there of their own free will.

Every time one says NO to God, he is choosing to be far away from Him, both now and after this life ends.

Wondering

 

[ivdavid]

God does not send one to hell - the person, by not choosing to be saved, sends himself to hell. He was given the opportunity to be saved, but did not accept it.

This is what I believe too.

Double predestination - Calvin's theory - teaches that God decides who will be saved and who will be condemned.
THIS is what I cannot agree to.

I too do not agree with the tenets of double predestination.

Single predestination(i think a lutheran term, i'm not sure) teaches - God pre-decides/predetermines that a chosen/elect remnant will be saved - but contrary to double predestination, denies that God predetermines who will be condemned. This doctrine does justice to the Scriptural passages on God's sovereign election by grace while still upholding man's responsibility and accountability for all his sinful acts in unbelief.

 

[Chopper]

At least someone is recognizing life happenstance...sphere of influence as you put it.
Where does my thinking come in? Election...pre-destination. If you were choosen by God prior to your death you will become a believer.
Sphere of influence in some instances has nothing to do with choosing God. I've heard of "nasty" rebellious people..anti-God to the core...who heard the gospel preached once and were saved. Why were they saved? They were elect, God opened their heart and the believed.
On the other hand salvation comes to people in all different flavors. We talked earlier about Gods soverign providence. It is God who places us in front of the Gospel...and opens our ears. I don't think we figure it out because we can't.

There ya go my friend. You just got a Chopper "Home Run". with this statement of yours Why were they saved? They were elect, God opened their heart and the believed. AND, I agree totally with this statement as well. It is God who places us in front of the Gospel...and opens our ears. I don't think we figure it out because we can't.

Ok, on to the next great theological difficulty. What do you propose we tackle next?

 

[Cygnus]

You quite honestly have said you have no idea as to why God would predestine someone to hell or on what He would base that choice.

This is a big problem Cygnus. God is not a God of confusion. God made man, He loves His creation. He said it was good, He gave man a helper, he gave him a beautiful garden to live in and God gave man the honor of naming all the animals because man is superior to them.

God had a plan from the beginning of time. He knew Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew evil would enter into man and man would acquire the sin nature.

So, being a just and loving God, He predestined a plan of salvation. He foreknew who would accept salvation and who would not. God predestined those who would accept salvation to be conformed unto the likeness of His Son.
His Son died to save us. To save all who wants to accept the free gift of salvation.

Ask yourself: Why would God pick some of the persons HE created and loves to go to heaven, and pick some of the persons HE created to go to hell?

God is not a God of confusion and the above is very confusing.
1 Corinthians 14:33

God does not want us to be confused regarding Him. He has done all He possibly could to let Himself be known. I've posted scripture on this several times for you. Romans 1:19-20 would be one.

God loves us:
Romans 5:8
1 John 4:9-11

Romans 6:23, which you have posted several times, is clear in stating that the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ.

So we are all born into death and are lost. But God's FREE GIFT to us is eternal salvation. A gift must be accepted. It's being offered, you are to accept.

Those who have never heard of Jesus are also born unrighteous. But, in their own way, they can come to know God - through His creation or through their own conscience. They can still accept to honor this God they do not really know and to be "good" people. Everyone has the choice to be good or bad - not just Christians. The blood of Jesus will also cover the sins of these people. God is a just and loving God.

God loves His creation - man.
1 John 3:1a
Romans 8:37-29
Psalm 86:15

How could He purposefully send someone to hell if He loves them?
Does He love His creation or not?

Wondering

You wasted your time with that responce that didn't even address the issue we were talking about.
The question is....why would God elect one person and not the other?

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I believe too.


I too do not agree with the tenets of double predestination.

Single predestination(i think a lutheran term, i'm not sure) teaches - God pre-decides/predetermines that a chosen/elect remnant will be saved - but contrary to double predestination, denies that God predetermines who will be condemned. This doctrine does justice to the Scriptural passages on God's sovereign election by grace while still upholding man's responsibility and accountability for all his sinful acts in unbelief.

Amen ivdavid.
Predestination is definitely in the bible passages - but not double predestination.
Also, predestination refers to WHAT God had planned from the beginning:
The salvation plan
2 Timothy 2:9

And He also predestined us to be conformed to His Son
Ephesians 1:4
Romans 8:29

Double predestination changes the character of God, which is Love.
A loving God would not arbitrarily send anyone to hell.
Also, it would remove our responsibility for sin, as you've stated.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,
What you say above seems to me to be the crux of the problem.
Many don't really believe that heaven or hell even exists.
If hell were a reality to them, they'd become a believer PRONTO!
Or, as I'd say: SUBITO!

Part of the problem is that we have a material world around us that is easy to see and feel.
Most people don't want to think about what they CANNOT see.
John 3:1-13 comes to mind.
John 3:3
John 3:6

Sometimes it's necessary to have all taken away from us and hit bottom before we can consider the supernatural.
Then we can come to know God and how good He is and that He is the distributor of all the good that we see around us.
Then, once we understand how good God is, we can no longer accept that He would send anyone to a place far away from Him unless they chose to go there of their own free will.

Every time one says NO to God, he is choosing to be far away from Him, both now and after this life ends.

Wondering

O my wonderful Sister, you are so right. That brings up my memory of one conversation with my Brother Tom, who is not saved. He asked me about hell. I told him and he said thank you and didn't want to talk about spiritual things any longer. That was probably 35 years ago. Recently, he asked my Son Skip for the same information on hell. Skip gave him some good information. That's all Tom wanted. At least he's thinking and what you said about others not believing there is a hell, at least, the Holy Spirit has him dwelling on hell.

Tom is such a great human being, really!! So kind, thoughtful of others, and has helped me financially because he has been very successful in business. Tom likes the fact that I became a Pastor and has helped so many people, some even that he knows. But, for some reason, he has always been hard to the Gospel, we've never spoken about that.

I can't bear the fact that he might spend eternity away from the presence of Jesus our Lord of Whom you and I love so very much. A couple of years ago, Tom's Wife Mabel died of cancer. I stayed with Tom during the last two and a half weeks of her life. I was able to explain the Gospel to Mabel who was Catholic. Tom wouldn't let her respond favorably, he stopped the conversation.

About a year after Mabel died, Tom remarried a devout Catholic, Maryann, I think she's got him thinking on hell. Sooooooooooo, I've said all of this so that perhaps when you think about me or Tom, you might offer up a prayer that Tom and Maryann will get saved, thanks.