Predestination

[Cornelius]

mondar wrote:AN ILLUSTRATION OF GOD SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE WILL OF MAN

I want to make a 2nd post. I was thinking about Jonah. Jonah had the human will and chose to flee the presence of God. God had decreed Jonah would go to Ninevah.

Now if we assume that God does not control events, we can look for Jonah to win. In the exercise of his free will he would not end up in Ninevah. Well, you know the story, Jonah made certain choices. God made certain choices. Jonah had the ability to rebel against God, but God could choose at any time to overrule Jonah's choice. Human free will is meaningless when in the face of God's sovereign will.

Yet we will complain...
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

Interesting fact about Jonah, is that Jonah HAD to first run away. He had to be three days in the belly of the fish, because God wanted Jonah as a sign of Jesus being three days in the grave:

Luk 11:30 For even as Jonah became a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Luk 11:29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah

Jonah felt that he chose it, but God steered him through this, to create a type and shadow for future generations .

 

[Elijah674]

There are passages of scripture that seem to suggest the course of a person's life is determined before the're born, as in the cases of Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5) and Paul (Gal. 1:15). It is clear from these verses that God had a life plan for Jeremiah and Paul before they were born. This is evidence of exhaustively settled foreknowledge only if Jeremiah and Paul had no choice but to carry out God's plan. Why should we assume this, however? As Paul suggested to King Agrippa, he could have chosen to be "disobedient to the heavenly vision" by which he was called (Acts: 26:19). This alone suggests that God's "call" on a person's life isn't a guarantee that the person will follow Him.

Scripture is filled with examples of people who"rejected God's purpose for themselves" (Luke 7:30). The same is true of every person who refuses to enter God's eternal kingdom, for God wants "all to come to repentance" and be saved (2 Peter 3:9). The reality of sin and damnation, in other words, demonstrates that God's purposes do not always come about.
Hence, the fact that God intended a course of action for Jeremiah and Paul didn't guarantee that it would come about. Jeremiah and Paul were still free agents, despite God's unique calling on their lives.


Albert Finch

King Saul was another. He was given the Spirit of God & after he freely matured the wrong direction, the Holy Ghost left him. It is the same history as today seen in a much much larger scale. Matt. 7's broadway ones & the END ones of Rev. 17:1-5's many false daughters.

--Elujah

 

[mondar]

Thanks for your response - unabashed Calvinist. As an aside let me ask you this: Where did Calvin get his authority from? The same question could be put to Luther - where did Luther get his authority from? Those who call themselves 'Reformed' are at a slight advantage over 'Calvinists' because the personal name brand 'Calvin' is set aside for a movement encompasses a much broader diversity of opinion and thought. Calvin has not been able to correct his writings - that's the trouble with being dead.

Stranger, your entire post is talking right past me and what I said. Let me try and help you a little.

The term "Calvinist" does not refer to a "follower of John Calvin." The term is often used to refer to the Synod of Dort. But nobody claims to be a "Dortian," whatever that would be. Your lack of understanding on this point was somewhat my fault. The term Calvinist is theological short hand, and I probably should not have used the term.

When you ask about Calvin and his "authority..." Calvin received his authority from a correct view of the gospel.

This is about how the typical Calvinists factors in man's responsibilty into predestination. I don't dispute that man is held accountable but does this accountability stop short of a man actually losing his salvation by his own hand?

In previous posts in this thread I dont think I wrote on how God predestines the saved. I was speaking of a more general predestination. So again, we are not even on the same page yet and talking about the same things. Concerning the predestination of the saved, I would be a complete monergist. The logical sequence of salvation involves regeneration before faith. Since salvation is completely the work of God for the elect, then the concept of loosing ones salvation is not an issue. No man can keep his salvation.

It may be that for some reason the Lord becomes indignant towards a saint. As far as I am aware the response of faith would be to ask: Will Thou be indignant forever? Do you 'feel' what is resonating in this response?

I am not sure if I know what you are talking about here. I suspect you are speaking of loosing ones salvation. There are passages where believers are chastened in the NT, but where is this "God is indignant" against a "saint." Show me this passage.

 

[mondar]

Elijah here: If that is the case then Being Born again is meaningless, for the Word in Jude states that these were twice dead, meaning that they had inded been reborn.

If you want to talk to me, make the size of your letters normal. Large letters are like shouting.

 

[mondar]

Scripture is filled with examples of people who"rejected God's purpose for themselves" (Luke 7:30).

Albert, this is a misapplication of Luke 7:30. The words "council of God" refer to the revealed will of God, not his decree by which predestination occurs. God commands all men to repent. This is the will of God. It is his revealed will. his revealed will is different then his decree. It is his revealed will that the Pharisees and lawyers repent (as well as all men), but it was not his decree. Their refusal to accept John's baptism showed that they were not in conformity with John the Baptists preaching and Gods command to the Jew to repent.

The same is true of every person who refuses to enter God's eternal kingdom, for God wants "all to come to repentance" and be saved (2 Peter 3:9). The reality of sin and damnation, in other words, demonstrates that God's purposes do not always come about.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The question here is who is the people Peter is refering to when he uses the term "you-ward." If Peter is writing to the same audience as 1 Peter, the "you-ward" people are the "elect who are sojourners of the dispersion."

In the context of the verse we are discussing.... There is a "they" and a "you-war" group. The "They" group are the mockers found back in 2 Peter 3:3-4. Verse 5 says that "they willfully forget." These mockers are not part of the "you-ward" people in verse 9. God does not decree the repentance of the Mockers, but he is not willing that "any" of the elect perish (the "you-ward" group).

Hence, the fact that God intended a course of action for Jeremiah and Paul didn't guarantee that it would come about. Jeremiah and Paul were still free agents, despite God's unique calling on their lives.

Paul had a choice on the road to Damascus? I think Paul did choose to fight Christ, and to work against him. Christ just simply did not honor Paul's choices.

 

[Serious Faith]

Just because we read that Jonah choose to repent and go to Ninevah does not mean that he could of choosen not to repent.

Either God wants none to perishes or He choose for some to perish. God simply foreknew those who would choose to obey the Gospel and those who would not. God has choosen to save those who respond to the Gospel of Christ.

The key word is foreknow. God predistined to save those who choose to follow Christ. That is the only thing that is predistined, the method of salvation. God will is that ALL men be saved. Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world.

 

[Serious Faith]

Are the saved or the unsaved written the book of life of Revelation 3:5?

 

[Cornelius]

Just because we read that Jonah choose to repent and go to Ninevah does not mean that he could of choosen not to repent.

Either God wants none to perishes or He choose for some to perish. God simply foreknew those who would choose to obey the Gospel and those who would not. God has choosen to save those who respond to the Gospel of Christ.

The key word is foreknow. God predistined to save those who choose to follow Christ. That is the only thing that is predistined, the method of salvation. God will is that ALL men be saved. Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is only wishing that none should perish. When God wills something it is so, but not when He only wishes. Its the same as when you say: I wish my child would listen.

I use to believe like you do now. I also thought that it makes sense, that God kind of looked into the future and saw you and I choosing Him, so He then started working with us, because we made the right choice. But the more I studied, the more I saw that God indeed is sovereign and that I have no choice in the matter. God wins in the end, and if we all could choose, He would have to base His victory on our choices. Bad move. Also He does not share His glory with man. So if you chose correctly, you could share the glory. God says you cannot.

C

 

[Dave Slayer]

The key word is foreknow. God predistined to save those who choose to follow Christ. That is the only thing that is predistined, the method of salvation. God will is that ALL men be saved. Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world.

In trying to reconcile the verses about election with their concept of "free will", many people explain election this way: God foreknows our faith and elects us on the basis of our choice of Him. This theory, although it suits the free will idea, is based on a misinterpretation of Romans 8:29-30. ("For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified)."

One only needs to ponder briefly the implications of the previous assertion to understand how impossible this system would be. For if God chooses man based on their choice of Him, it really is no choice at all on the part of God. He is merely rewarding His creation for a choice they made. (As Chuck Swindoll puts it: "that's not pre-destination that's post-destination". It would also follow that God's will would then be controlled and defined by the will of His own creatures. (For He could only chose to save them if they would chose Him.) Yet Jesus Himself declared: "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John 15:16)

Another essential point to consider regarding this line of thought is this: Supposing that man is foreordained to salvation based on his foreseen acceptance of God, one would have to ask, how would that man have been able to chose God without it first being of God? For according to the above verse, only those who have been predestinated are called unto salvation, are justified and glorified. Without God first predestinating man, there would be no faith to foresee.

Or, to put it another way, if man is dead in his sin (as previously established), if he, left to himself, does not desire to come to God and depends solely on God's calling and drawing to come to Him, God could not have looked into eternity to come and seen that I would choose Him; for in fact I would not, were He not the one choosing me first. ("We love Him because He first loved us ") The free- willer puts the cart before the horse.. He asserts that God gives faith because man is willing. But the bible teaches that "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy".. (Romans 9:11) Again, the free-willer (Arminian) says: God chose me because I am willing. But I say, (and I believe the scriptures affirm) that I am willing, because He chose me.

Charles Spurgeon explains it in a similar fashion: "Did my savior die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour therefore have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been the origin of my Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit."

While considering this issue of faith based on foreknowledge, one must also take a close look at Romans 8:29 "The first few words clearly say "For whom He did foreknow..." Note that it does not specify "for those whose faith He did foreknow.."; it does not say that there was anything in particular in us that He foreknew, but it says WHOM He foreknew. He foreknew people. And those people that He foreknew, he predestinated, He called, He justified and He glorified. . If one would try to say that it was our faith that He foreknew when the text does not say so, another could just as easily say that He foreknew our works, and that would be equally false.

Source: http://kruszer.tripod.com/election3.html

 

[Dave Slayer]

God fore "knew" individuals and not just information about individuals. God knew His people in advance. This is not something where He simply knew the future but knew His people in a relationship type of way.

 

[Joe67]

When a soul has guilt on his conscience for known disobedience only the blood of Jesus can bring that soul relief. The free gift of forgiveness. There is not any understanding of how God brought this mercy.

The God eventually sets the word before this soul and they learn that there is also religious sin. A greater repentance comes. A greater revelation of forgiveness/justification. The washing of water by the word, the washing of regeneration.

Then God begins to give gifts unto this child (Eph 4:7) through Jesus. Now comes the experience of squandering the gifts and a greater repentance is needed and given. What truth of God can set us free from license and squandering the down payment of our inheritance? This license is like the Babylonian captivity, whereby we are free to run around in the Babylonian territory and make merchandise of the grace of God and preaching Christ for profit and fornicating with the kings of the earth. This is how the Babylonian religion operates so the secular government is not threatened by this type of activity. This is not Egyptian slavery that came about through a famine.

There is a famine, but not for bread, but for the hearing of the Voice of God, the free gift of Imputation in the day of the Lord Jesus; atonement with God through the blood of Jesus in the final judgment bar. His Voice is speaking through his blood. Hebrews 12:22-25. What truth concerning Jesus does God speak to us at this critical time to deliver us from our burden for squandering the earnest of the inheritance. Remember the prodigal son in Luke 15. This is a picture of the saved in the end of their experience in sin as they, by faith, enter the new Jerusalem that is above; like John did in Revelation 17. The light of Jesus as the Lamb that was slain before the world began and standing in the center of God's throne is all that can deliver us from holding the truth in the unrighteousness of license, when the world is given over to this delusion.

We are called (born), bathed, clothed and given gifts before the Spirit instructs us that God foreordained in his love as a Father. His is the true planned parenthood. We are blessed before we are given to understand. We are given this understanding so that we can remain faithful to our God and His Christ and to bless those who curse us and pray for those who despitefuly use us, to the praise of God's glory in his grace in Jesus. This returns us to the faith that Jesus delivered to the apostles; foreknowledge by God the Father and a pathway of suffering in serving the body of Jesus. The Christ ( and his body ) must suffer to enter into his glory. God gives us to taste his love and confess our abominations before he returns us from our Babylonian journey into spiritual harlotry.

The way God spoke to Abraham and the way that God spoke to David show that both groups are blessed in the promises of God.Romans 4:16,17. Japeth abides in the tent of Shem. Genesis 9:27.

Let everyone who names the name of Christ not judge his brother either way concerning these truths. May we all prophesy and let us not quench the Spirit.

Joe

 

[Serious Faith]

So what Calvanist believe is that God chooses to save some and not others just because He can. If it is God's will that none perish, and He has the ability to give saving faith to whom ever He pleases, then it is not God's will that none perish. Because if He chooses some randemly, it truly is His that some do perish.

God is a God of Justice and mercy, and fairness and love. "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".

Salvation is not a lottery. Jesus died for the sins of the world. Whoevet is thirsty, let him come and drink freely. This is the Word of our gracious God and King.

 

[Joe67]

Serious Faith,

1 Tim 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. KJV

Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: KJV

Joe

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi joechrist and shad,

God predestines people for service,

"The word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.' " (Jeremiah 1:4,5)

God also predestines events to happen.

"I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." (Isaiah 46:10,11)

However, God does NOT predestine the eternal destiny of people. But God does know beforehand what the eternal destiny of people will be. Foreknowledge means that God knows the outcome of all things in advance. The future is to God what the past is to us. It is unchangeable. We may have a perfect view of our past, but we are powerless to change one word, thought, decision, or action in the past. God is also powerless, under His own divine rule of love (proven by the death of Jesus), to alter or change the future in any way; though he knows the outcome.

Don't buy into the belief that says God has already decided who is going to live forever and who is not, so no matter what we do, the outcome has already been predetermined. This concept is called "fatalism". Fatalism claims everything that happens is the predetermined will of God. It is a FALSE doctrine. It says that people have no choice about their eternal destiny; and that God created some people simply for destruction. Those ideas are FALSE. Knowing the difference between foreknowledge and predestination really helps in understanding.

What about these passages:

"He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will . . ." (Ephesians 1:5)

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Put those two verses together and what does it mean? If God predestined us to be adopted as His sons; then why is He patient with us, wanting us to repent so we don't perish?

Ephesians 1:5 (above) says what?

* God predestined who? Us (fallen man).
* He predestined fallen man to be what? Adopted (the adoption process).
* How did He predestine fallen man to be adopted as His sons? Through Jesus Christ!

God predestined the process of adoption as His sons available to all mankind through Jesus Christ.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:4,5)

 

[joechrist]

How does he know the outcome? And do we have any other choice but to play out his plan.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by joechrist
How does he know the outcome? And do we have any other choice but to play out his plan.

I kind of explaind that above. As far as the specifics, I don't have foreknowledge myself, so I can't tell you exactly how. You would have to ask God that question :P. Somehow He can see the outcome. I guess it's sort of like being in an airplane or helicopter and you can look down from 5,000 feet and see the twists and turns of a long river. In one glance, you can see the end and the beginning. Some folks are traveling down the river in a raft – not knowing where the river leads. You can see where the raft will be when it reaches the end of the journey, but you have nothing to do with the travelers reaching that destination. Instead, you can only see where the folks will be when they reach the end of the river. Hopefully it's not a 1,000 foot waterfall :D.

 

[joechrist]

Gotcha...So God can see the outcome but doesn't have the power to change it.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by joechrist

Gotcha...So God can see the outcome but doesn't have the power to change it.

He WON'T change it because He follows His own rules (He has the power to do anything however). God will not use His omniscience to manipulate His children or alter the oncoming future. If He did, He would be guilty of a terrible breach of confidence. He operates on the principle of love, but any power play to manipulate His subjects would suggest otherwise. He does not predestine the fate of people......but He knows :eyebrow. That's what the "Book of Life" is all about. Something worth looking into.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Originally posted by joechrist
How does he know the outcome? And do we have any other choice but to play out his plan.

I kind of explaind that above. As far as the specifics, I don't have foreknowledge myself, so I can't tell you exactly how. You would have to ask God that question :P. Somehow He can see the outcome. I guess it's sort of like being in an airplane or helicopter and you can look down from 5,000 feet and see the twists and turns of a long river. In one glance, you can see the end and the beginning. Some folks are traveling down the river in a raft – not knowing where the river leads. You can see where the raft will be when it reaches the end of the journey, but you have nothing to do with the travelers reaching that destination. Instead, you can only see where the folks will be when they reach the end of the river. Hopefully it's not a 1,000 foot waterfall :D.

I dont that would be the proper analogy,,,,,,because although you are correct,,, if this did not include his "elects" ,,,,,but for Gods election,,,,,,,

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Many are called, ,,but few are chosen,,,,,So when were these souls/people chosen (picked)???? Before the foundation of the world,,,,"Foundation"(cosmos) which when looking at the Greek,,,you will see that this is talking about a earth age .....The cosmos also meaning "overthrow" when it used as a verb....,,,
When was the overthrow??????The first earth age long before men were created/formed in flesh...

Romans 8:27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh "intercession" for the saints according to the will of God.

So we see here God taking action on the behalf of some,,,,,for His greater purpose,,,,,I bet Jonah can tell you a bit about this.....

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, "Predestined" from time (age)before this oneEach soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception.

This is why GOd was able to tell Jeremiah::::1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
"Sanctified" to be set apart or meaning to (set aside)
many are CALLED few are chosen....

So really some travelers are going to make in that raft cause God is going to make sure of it...... They have been chosen to do a job long ago.....

 

[Osgiliath]

I mentioned those God chooses for service in my post preceding that one NIGHTMARE. I was just attempting to explain the concept on the whole.