Predestination

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Many of you know that "irresistible grace" is not based on Scripture. But you might be surprised to know that it is not based on a misunderstanding of Scripture, either. Irresistible grace is a philosophical patch, invented in the seventeenth century, to cover a fatal philosophical flaw in Calvin's philosophical system.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/invention-irresistible-grace-27914/

Anyone who has read of Saul's encounter on the road to Damascus should easily be able to see 'irresistible Grace.'

 

[Vince]

By the way, Folks, I've been quoting John 1:9 to show that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world.

However, are there any other verses that specifically teach that God gives light to the wicked?

Proverbs 29:13 tells us:

"The poor man and the oppressor have this in common: The LORD gives light to the eyes of both."

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

By the way, Folks, I've been quoting John 1:9 to show that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world.

You do not understand that verse, for all come into the world in darkness spiritually.

Thats one of the objectives of God sending the gospel. acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

rom 2:19

And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

According to your faulty interpretation, no man should be in darkness, since Christ has enlightened every man with true light when they are born into the world.

2 cor 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

according to your faulty interpretation, this must happen when every dead sinner is being born into the world.

eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

according to your faulty interpretation of Jn 1:9 this is a false statement, unless one can be darkness at the same time of having been given the True light.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

Many of you know that "irresistible grace" is not based on Scripture.

That is exactly what it is based on.

The effectual power of Gods grace eph 3:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Grace is God's spiritual power !

Grace reigns through Jesus christ rom 5:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace is no more resistable as death is. Now do you believe death can be resisted by any ?

 

[Vince]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 10

One of Calvinsim'serrors is teaching that Romans 9 is talking about two men:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Malachi 1:2-4 shows that this passage is talking about two nations, not two people:

2 " I have loved you," says the LORD. " Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. " Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."
4 Even though Edom has said, " We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: " They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.

 

[Drew]

Malachi 1:2-4 shows that this passage is talking about two nations, not two people:

I agree. And those who would take this text as a treatment of the election of these guys to eternal fates get a lot of mileage out of the fact that people do not look up the Old Testament references and take the implications seriously.

These references are not there by accident - they serve a purpose.

 

[smaller]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 10

One of Calvinsim'serrors is teaching that Romans 9 is talking about two men:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Malachi 1:2-4 shows that this passage is talking about two nations, not two people:

2 " I have loved you," says the LORD. " Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. " Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."
4 Even though Edom has said, " We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: " They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.

The very point you make shows God does elect, predestine and choose not only MEN, but NATIONS.

GOD CHOSE ISRAEL/JACOB.

GOD did NOT CHOSE Esau/Pharaoh.

Apply the principle to MAN or to NATIONS. It's the same principle.

God does not 'choose' on the basis of the choices of either MAN or of NATIONS.

s

 

[Vince]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 11

Before Jacob and Esau were even born, God chose the nation of Israel and rejected the nation of Esau. Why?

One answer is that the purpose of God according to election might stand. God's goal is to bring people to Himself. If He had chosen another nation to be His chosen people, they may have done better or worse that Israel, but they would not have carried out His purpose.

Another answer is given in Psalm 137:7

Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom The day of Jerusalem, Who said, "Raze it, raze it, To its very foundation!"

God knew in advance that He would answer this prayer against the nation of Esau and that He would have to end the nation someday. Before Esau was born, doing neither good nor evil, God saw what his descendants would do, and He rejected them as His chosen people.

 

[Drew]

The very point you make shows God does elect, predestine and choose not only MEN, but NATIONS.

True. It is clear that God can and does "elect" or "choose" both men and nations. However, there is no evidence that he pre-destines men to an eternal destiny. Consider Pharoah: Paul tells us what Pharaoh was pre-destined to: to resist the exodus.

 

[Vince]

Folks, I have to be careful about answering posts, because fights sometimes start rather quickly. My friend Smaller is correct in pointing out that God elects nations to certain tasks or destinies, because God is working out a plan to bring people to Himself. However, predestination refers only to the saints being adopted as sons and being conformed to His image.

And as Drew points out, God's choice of Jacob over Esau had nothing to do with the spiritual destinies of those two men.

 

[smaller]

True. It is clear that God can and does "elect" or "choose" both men and nations. However, there is no evidence that he pre-destines men to an eternal destiny. Consider Pharoah: Paul tells us what Pharaoh was pre-destined to: to resist the exodus.

God does elect to have MERCY on ALL vessels of HONOUR and the converse on vessels of DISHONOUR.

Freewillers don't seem to like to hear of these matters.

Determinists have come to grips with the facts that GOD RULES and DOES exactly as HE DESIRES. NO MAN by their WILL can change these matters.

s

 

[Drew]

God does elect to have MERCY on ALL vessels of HONOUR and the converse on vessels of DISHONOUR.

Freewillers don't seem to like to hear of these matters.

Determinists have come to grips with the facts that GOD RULES and DOES exactly as HE DESIRES. NO MAN by their WILL can change these matters.

s

This is not a question of we "freewillers" not liking certain things.

This is a matter of textual evidence - there is no evidence in Romans 9, and I believe anywhere else, that people are pre-destined to an eternal fate.

Let's be clear: To say that the examples of (1) Esau and Jacob; and (2) Pharoah are examples of election to eternal fates is to first, ignore what Paul tells us the election was about in each of these 2 cases, and second, to insert without justification the idea of eternal destinies.

Where are eternal destinies mentioned for these guys? Nowhere.

And to see pre-destination to eternal destinies in the potter metaphor is pre-emptively rule out of the bounds the possibility, as Vince has said in other words, that God's hardening on the one hand, or his glorification on the other, is contingent on a free will choice. While it is not clear that there is such a contingency here, the point is that Paul does not rule this out.

One has to argue these things properly.

 

[smaller]

This is not a question of we "freewillers" not liking certain things.

This is a matter of textual evidence - there is no evidence in Romans 9, and I believe anywhere else, that people are pre-destined to an eternal fate.

And I remain quite assured that the evil present with Paul, the DEVIL that Paul admitted he had IS PREDESTINED to total destruction, PERIOD.

Anyone with HOPE in the Gospel HOPES for that coming destruction. This is A PROMISE of GOD in Jesus Christ, as sure as THE ROCK.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The answer? THEY CAN'T ESCAPE!

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Let's be clear: To say that the examples of (1) Esau and Jacob; and (2) Pharoah are examples of election to eternal fates is to first, ignore what Paul tells us the election was about in each of these 2 cases, and second, to insert without justification the idea of eternal destinies.

Where are eternal destinies mentioned for these guys? Nowhere.

Let's look at some simplicities here. Romans 9 is about VESSELS.

There were and are VESSELS that WERE MADE for DISCARDATION, and this BY GOD. The 'problem' with YOU GUYS is you don't understand who the VESSELS OF DISHONOUR are, and you FALSELY think it is 'the other people.' Therefore you judge BY THE FLESH that you see with your EYES.

One cannot SEE the 'vessel of DISHONOUR' until they have TRUTH in themselves and their OWN CONDITION in the FLESH.

All mankind have VESSELS OF DISHONOUR. We are ALL planted or sown into DISHONOUR...

The CRY of the LUMP of 'me' TO GOD in Romans 9 is:

WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS!?

This is not an 'THE OTHER GUY' issue. It is A ME issue.

It is ME and YOU that are SOWN or PLANTED into DISHONOUR. IF you have the HOPE of INCORRUPTION, then you should also be TRUTHFUL about your PRESENT PLANTING....

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If any person called 'me' reads Romans 9 and does NOT understand that they ARE themselves sown into DISHONOUR they are BLINDED by that working power and are LED to falsely ACCUSE 'the other guy.'

Nearly every believer believes THEY ARE ONLY A VESSEL OF HONOUR....

and this is simply NOT the case when we see with honesty OUR PLANTING into DISHONOUR.

We are called to DIVIDE from that vessel of DISHONOUR by Paul. In order to PURGE ones SELF from that VESSEL one has to understand that THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR LUMP OF ME to begin with. A LUMP OF ME with no undertanding of what ME is has NOTHING to purge from. Such are BLIND to the TRUTH:

2 Tim. 2:
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

We are requested to PURGE ourselves of VESSELS OF DISHONOUR. One cannot PURGE himself from a vessel he doesn't even KNOW that he HAS. The VESSELS OF DISHONOUR are in OUR LUMP, the LUMP OF ME. We are in fact PLANTED or SOWN into DISHONOUR.

Romans 9:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

BOTH VESSELS are in the lump, the SAME LUMP, ME. NOT the 'other guy.'

Calvin made ONE VITAL MISTAKE in not KNOWING that Calvin also had A VESSEL OF DISHONOUR in his OWN LUMP.

enjoy!

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[Drew]

And I remain quite assured that the evil present with Paul, the DEVIL that Paul admitted he had IS PREDESTINED to total destruction, PERIOD.

Fine, but this is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 9. Romans 9 is part of an argument about what has happened to Israel - why they are in the sad state they are in.

And his explanation is that God has hardened (many of) them.

 

[smaller]

Fine, but this is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 9. Romans 9 is part of an argument about what has happened to Israel - why they are in the sad state they are in.

And his explanation is that God has hardened (many of) them.

None of us are exempt from the workings of the VESSELS of DISHONOUR in our own lump. It is assuredly NOT a Jew only matter.

 

[Drew]

None of us are exempt from the workings of the VESSELS of DISHONOUR in our own lump. It is assuredly NOT a Jew only matter.

Same error - you assume that Paul is not permitted to addressed a specific sub-set of all humanity. Paul is, of course, permitted to talk generally, but you simply seem to assume it.

And it is a dubious position to take since I believe all references to God working with clay in the Old Testament are clearly Israel - specific.

 

[smaller]

Same error - you assume that Paul is not permitted to addressed a specific sub-set of all humanity. Paul is, of course, permitted to talk generally, but you simply seem to assume it.

Jesus applied every WORD of God to MAN. Paul applied every COMMAND to believers. People who do not believe this are blinded by the 'god of this world.'

And it is a dubious distinction indeed since I believe all references to God working with clay in the Old Testament are clearly Israel - specific.

Spin your story to eliminate Gods Words however you can scramble to do so. I do not practice such methods in the light of better disclosures that do not require such things, AS IF IT IS POSSIBLE for YOU or any other MAN to ELIMINATE Gods Words.

Makes me laugh quite frankly. Drew, ELIMINATOR OF GODS WORDS.

lol

s

 

[Drew]

Let's look at some simplicities here. Romans 9 is about VESSELS.

There were and are VESSELS that WERE MADE for DISCARDATION, and this BY GOD. The 'problem' with YOU GUYS is you don't understand who the VESSELS OF DISHONOUR are, and you FALSELY think it is 'the other people.' Therefore you judge BY THE FLESH that you see with your EYES.

Circular - you cannot assume what the vessels are.

All mankind have VESSELS OF DISHONOUR. We are ALL planted or sown into DISHONOUR...

Again - you make unsubstantiated assumptions about these vessels are.

 

[smaller]

Circular - you cannot assume what the vessels are.

No assumptions required. There is ISRAEL and there is the spirit of slumber upon Israel that IS NOT THEM that was PUT upon them.

TWO vessels, right there to SEE.

Again - you make unsubstantiated assumptions about these vessels are.

Do you believe you are ONLY A VESSEL OF HONOUR there in YOUR LUMP?

If so, you are INCOGNIZANT of indwelling sin/evil present that Paul defined as NO LONGER I. There, TWO VESSELS again, IN the LUMP OF PAUL. Right there to SEE.

A man who does not KNOW can NOT know by the POWER of the VESSEL OF DISHONOUR that has overshadowed their MIND and made them UNABLE to see, by GODS CHOICE to raise that VESSEL over them, IN their lump.

s

 

[Drew]

The CRY of the LUMP of 'me' TO GOD in Romans 9 is:

WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS!?

This is not an 'THE OTHER GUY' issue. It is A ME issue.

The problem with this reasoning is that if it is otherwise clear, and I suggest that it is, that Paul is focusing on the hardened Jew, it is perfectly legit for Paul to use the literary device of using a "me" that is a prototypical Jew. He does the same thing in Romans 7, where the "I" that is tripped up by the Law of Moses, is clearly an I that is a representative Jew.