Predestination

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

Does it say that Jesus enlightens EVERY man who comes into the world, or Jesus enlightens SOME men who come into the world?

He enlightens every elect man that comes into the world, with the True Light.


Jn 1:9

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Thats spiritual, heavenly light. All men are born without this Light. Men by nature are in darkness and are darkness.

Only the regenerated men are lighten with True Spiritual light.

1 jn 2:8

Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

 

[Drew]

Your claim is that unbelievings JEWS ONLY are the vessels of destruction.

My claim is that in this chapter, in the context of the argument he is developing, yes, the vessels of destruction are Jews.

Of course, in saying this, I am not denying that God can and does harden Gentiles for particular reasons at particular junctures in history.

A very common error in reading the potter account is the assumption that it is a treatment of the eternal fates of all men. The contex simply does not support such an assumption.

Paul is making an argument about Israel. It is the sad state of Israel that is the issue on the table. So why do you, and others, think Paul has suddenly forgotten the Israel-specificity of his argument goes off onto some tangent about how God pre-destines some to salvation, and some to loss, regardless of membership in the nation of Israel.

 

[Drew]

Provably and patently INcorrect. WE all know that the devil and his messengers WILL be destroyed. This makes those entities AUTOMATICALLY vessels of DIShonour as well.

Your logic is wrong. No one is denying that a lot of people, demons, etc will be destroyed. The point is that Paul is not talking about the broad sweep of those destined to ultimate loss - he is talking about how some Jews have been hardened to loss.

Your argument has the following flaw: you simply demand of Paul that he be speaking generally here. And this is, of course, an illegitimate demand.

You are effectively saying "Now see here Paul, you are simply not allowed to use the image of vessels of destruction as a set of specific Jews that have been hardened to destruction."

But, of course, Paul is certainly within his rights to use the image this way. And the evidence is clear that this is what he is doing. I have been "kept busy" pointing out the errors of logic you and others are making to actually get into the details of the case.

 

[Drew]

drew:



As James wrote under inspiration: james 1:

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You are back on "ignore". I will spend no more valuable time on you.

 

[Drew]

There is no 'unbelieving Jews' ONLY story there Drew. That is your imposition, and an impostion that you don't even hold when you aknowledge that God does NOT harden unbelieving Jews only. Again...

Please do not use your own flawed logic to tell me that I am being inconsistent.

It is perfectly clear that my acknowledgement that God has indeed hardened Gentiles does not mean that Paul is somehow prohibited from making a specific pointed, highly historical argument that Paul has indeed hardened Jews for a very specific reason.

Actually you bypass the case, and more than likely because you have no grasp of the subject matter.

Argumentative, unconstructive, and contains no relevant argument.

I have repeatedly made the CASE that Paul had a 'VESSEL OF DISHONOR' in the form of EVIL PRESENT and A DEVIL.

Not the point - you cannot simply assume that Paul is speaking about himself here, or that he is speaking generally about all human beings. I do not deny that Paul may have said such things.

But he does not say them in Romans 9. And it is the context of Romans 9 (and 10 and 11) that should be the basis on which we disambiguate the term "vessels of destruction".

Simply put - the fact that some non-Jews have most certainly been hardened by God in the course of history does not mean that Paul is prohibited from making a specific argument about the hardening of Jews only.

How any person can read the Gospels and MISS ENTIRELY the other entities that are shown to be IN AND WITH mankind is pretty bizarre to me.

What is really bizarre is that you make so many fundamental errors in basic logic.

These have been repeatedly pointed out - the fact that God has indeed hardened Gentiles does not impose some kind of rule on Paul that he must address all hardened peoples whenever he wants to talk about the fact that God had hardened somebody.

Yeah, you say JEWS ONLY and then give a great example of a NON-Jew. Why do you play this game?

You are making fundamental errors in logic here, which have been repeatedly pointed out. If you do not see this, I am not sure there is much hope for constructive dialoque between us.

 

[Drew]

With his teaching, only jews are on the wide road to destruction Matt 7:13

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

This is, of course, an entirely false statement.

This is the problem with engaging both you and smaller. On top of putting the effort to make my own case, I am continually having to correct fundamental errors of logic and misrepresentations from the both of you.

Enough from you - as I said I will no longer be interacting with you. But, just to set the record straight, I guarantee that you will produce no evidence, from any of my posts, to sustain this assertion of yours that I believe only Jews are on the road to destruction.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

This is, of course, an entirely false statement.

You do not know what you believe.

 

[smaller]

Enough from you - as I said I will no longer be interacting with you. But, just to set the record straight, I guarantee that you will produce no evidence, from any of my posts, to sustain this assertion of yours that I believe only Jews are on the road to destruction.

No, you actually refuted that yourself. You claim to simultaneous positions that do not match up. I do see you trying to backpeddle (now) by asserting that unbelieving Jews were made such at a certain time.

and fwiw I don't care what you believe. You are entitled to any set of structures you please. I merely pointed out that you have a logical fallacy in your statement here:

This is really not that difficult: The fact that Paul describes how God has hardened Gentiles - Pharoah for example - does not mean that Paul could not be using those examples to establish that God has the right to harden whomever He wants to harden, and then make the case that God has, at a particular point in her history, and for a particular reason, hardened Jews and Jew only.

The "ONLY" insertion in your statement makes the statement a logical fallacy, notwithstanding my general distaste for Jew bashing.

s

 

[Drew]

No, you actually refuted that yourself. You claim to simultaneous positions that do not match up. I do see you trying to backpeddle (now) by asserting that unbelieving Jews were made such at a certain time.

and fwiw I don't care what you believe. You are entitled to any set of structures you please. I merely pointed out that you have a logical fallacy in your statement here:



The "ONLY" insertion in your statement makes the statement a logical fallacy, notwithstanding my general distaste for Jew bashing.

s

This is not a fruitful line of discussion - so I will not deal with it any further. If you have other comments on what I post, fine.

 

[Vince]

He enlightens every elect man that comes into the world

vs.

Jesus enlightens EVERY man who comes into the world.


Okay, let's look at John 1:9 again

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

Readers, remember: John Calvin did not get his doctrines from Scripture; he got them from St. Augustine. St. Augustine was a Manichaean philosopher, who got his doctrine of unconditional election from the false prophet Mani.

 

[Elijah674]

Why not get back to the subject & just stay away from personalities. There is NO way that we know anothers heart or what is in their mind.

Here is what GOD ALONE ETERNALLY KNEW, and we cannot know this because we did & do not know our ENDING! We can only have FAITH! Heb. 11 ONES ALL DIED IN THE FAITH or some will be translated at His (Christ's) Second Coming.

Rom. 4
[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things [which be not] as though they were.

Surely if one is Born Again they know that they cannot do this that the Godhead [alone] Eternally knew!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

He enlightens every elect man that comes into the world

vs.

Jesus enlightens EVERY man who comes into the world.


Okay, let's look at John 1:9 again

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

Readers, remember: John Calvin did not get his doctrines from Scripture; he got them from St. Augustine. St. Augustine was a Manichaean philosopher, who got his doctrine of unconditional election from the false prophet Mani.

He enlightens every elect man that comes into the world, with the True Light.


Jn 1:9

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Thats spiritual, heavenly light. All men are born without this Light. Men by nature are in darkness and are darkness.

Only the regenerated men are lighten with True Spiritual light.

1 jn 2:8

Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

Enough from you - as I said I will no longer be interacting with you. But, just to set the record straight, I guarantee that you will produce no evidence, from any of my posts, to sustain this assertion of yours that I believe only Jews are on the road to destruction.

Your inconsistency is stating emphatically that the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction are only jews.

The text does not say that, nor imply that. The text is stating that God has the right to make any individual He so desires, whether jew or gentile a vessel of mercy, or a vessel of wrath, this in exact proportion to having the called to be of the gentile or the jew rom 9:

24Even us, whom he hath called [as vessels of mercy], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Now, I have set the record straight !

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince says:

Being predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son is a result of salvation. God calls and justifies these people, whom He knew in advance would accept Christ.

Please show us the verse that states " Gods calls and Justifies people who He knew in advance would accept Christ"

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince says:

Calvinists make the error of assuming that God predestined some people to salvation ( No one is predestined to be saved

How can one be predestined to be conformed to the Image of Christ without being predestined to be saved ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

I

agree, Vince. Those who respond to the call of God to repent are predestined to become sons of God and to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Now all you have to do is provide scripture support for you believing that none sense !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Predestination and foreknowledge !

Acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Its always good to see how a word is used in scripture to determine its meaning.

Many today have wrested the word foreknowledge into meaning what God foresees of mens actions and choices, then God predestines according to mens choices. That is such garbage and anti scriptural, a rebuttal hardly needs be given.

The word foreknowledge has absolutely nothing to do with what God foresees. There is a word used in scripture for forsee:

Its the greek word:


prooraō used in gal 3:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Even here the word is describing what is forseen of Gods action, and not mens actions.

acts 2:

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Again, this reference is the prophet forseeing what God is doing, not man !

Now here in our text acts 2:23 we have the term determinate counsel in connection with and preceding the word foreknowledge.

The greek word means :

to define

a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

b) to determine, appoint

1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

2) to ordain, determine, appoint

The meaning in websters is:

Precisely determined or limited or defined; especially fixed by rule or by a specific and constant cause; "a determinate distance"; "a determinate number";

Those who object to the Truth say that foreknowledge knows all things, but has not determined, fixed the boundaries, destined all things.

The text would contradict that humanistic thought in that determination precedes foreknowledge, or they are so closely united that His determinate counsel [will] is used first.

Is it possible for God , the Almighty to foreknow something, and yet not have determined it ?

If you answer in the affirmative, then in essence, you are making God dependent on a outside power of Himself, for those powers to bring about things He just foreknew !

You are affirming that there are other sources and powers that bring about things into Gods world, that He only foresaw but did not determine.

God is therefor made to be dependent on and conceding to powers outside of His determination, this is blasphemy to say the least, if not straight up atheism !
​

 

[Vince]

(sigh) Okay, does God give TRUE LIGHT to every ELECT man who enters the world, or does God give TRUE LIGHT to EVERY man who enters the World? Let's look at John 1:9 again:

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

 

[savedbygrace57]

(sigh) Okay, does God give TRUE LIGHT to every ELECT man who enters the world, or does God give TRUE LIGHT to EVERY man who enters the World? Let's look at John 1:9 again:

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

God does not give True Light to the seed of the serpent, the devils children of the devil.

1 jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of the wicked one matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

They were not sown by the Son of Man !


37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

 

[Vince]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 7

We have already seen that Pharaoh had hardened his own heart, corrupting his flesh so that he had a hard heart, before God hardened him. We have also seen that God enlightened Pharaoh, sent him the grace that brings salvation, and drew him to Christ by teaching him.

There is more than one reason WHY God hardened Pharaoh' heart, so let's start looking at them.

Exodus 9:13-14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "... stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: "... at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth.

WHY did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Because He wanted to send plagues that would teach the Egyptians that none of their gods were like Him.