Predestination

[Drew]

WHY did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Because He wanted to send plagues that would teach the Egyptians that none of their gods were like Him.

True, but the more important point as far as Paul's Romans 9 argument is concerned is that God hardened Pharaoh to resist letting the Israelites go, thereby setting up a great act of deliverance - the exodus.

And Paul is making this point in support of what he really wants to say in the potter metaphor - that Israel in Paul's day has become like Pharoah, hardened so that God can do another great act of redemption - saving the world:

because of their {***Israel by obvious context} transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

 

[Elijah674]

True, but the more important point as far as Paul's Romans 9 argument is concerned is that God hardened Pharaoh to resist letting the Israelites go, thereby setting up a great act of deliverance - the exodus.

And Paul is making this point in support of what he really wants to say in the potter metaphor - that Israel in Paul's day has become like Pharoah, hardened so that God can do another great act of redemption - saving the world:

because of their {***Israel by obvious context} transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

Some of us see man hardening their own heart by (Psalms 19:13) KNOWN Presumptious sining over & over again against the STRIVING OF THE HOLY GHOST. (Gen. 6:3's example) That finally the person or persons cannot be moved by the Holy Spirit. (Luke 16:31 for another example) We even see Rev. 3:16 where the 'COLD' can be reached easier that the 'Lukewarm'!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 7

No such thing as innocent men part 7 Rom 3:

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[Vince]

God does not give True Light to the seed of the serpent, the devils children of the devil.

vs.

God enlightens every man who comes into the world.



Okay, let's look at John 1:9 again:

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

 

[Sissy]

God does not give True Light to the seed of the serpent, the devils children of the devil.

vs.

God enlightens every man who comes into the world.



Okay, let's look at John 1:9 again:

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Amen.

And permit me to add:

1 Corinthians 10
(1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
(2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
(3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
(4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
​

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

God enlightens every man who comes into the world.

Not the children of the devil or the wicked one matt 13:

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

[Mike]

Sorry if this has been brought up in this thread. I haven't read it all. I swore I wasn't going to get in yet another rift over this, but here I am.

What do those who defend predestination do with 2 Peter 3?? I've never seen a logical answer to this, and please don't come with "he was speaking to the elect".

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If He's created certain souls for the purpose of condemnation, why would He be wanting no one to perish - that all would come to repentance? :gah

Another verse has to make you wonder...

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Could someone who's predestined be led astray and held captive by false philosophy of their or our time?

 

[smaller]

Sorry if this has been brought up in this thread. I haven't read it all. I swore I wasn't going to get in yet another rift over this, but here I am.

What do those who defend predestination do with 2 Peter 3?? I've never seen a logical answer to this, and please don't come with "he was speaking to the elect".



If He's created certain souls for the purpose of condemnation, why would He be wanting no one to perish - that all would come to repentance? :gah

Another verse has to make you wonder...



Could someone who's predestined be led astray and held captive by false philosophy of their or our time?

When anyone reads the scriptures their views of what is being said is ALWAYS jaded by their own thoughts. Freewillers see freewill scriptures. Determinists see determinist scriptures, and YES, both scripture sets can be seen OR the positions wouldn't exist. I can read the underlined scripture that you cite and NOT see what you see. God desires that time when ALL will come to repent and LIFE will swallow up death.

In the MEANtime we ALL perish don't we?

See how that works?

Scriptures are in fact a reflection of everyone's heart. It is just as much about what is IN a person when they read than the Words themselves.

Another 'factoid' about scripture is that there are many statements therein that are contradictory, some purposefully so. These are meant to force seekers to probe deeper to find HARMONY. I have spent decades in the study of HARMONIZATION. There absolutely CAN BE positions that are BOTH FULLY TRUE and seemingly directly OPPOSITE of each other. Many of them. Way more than just 'freewill' vs. 'determinism.' That just happens to be a popular one. Another is Law vs. Grace. Another is faith alone vs. faith + works. The list of conflicts is seemingly endless, and sometimes downright ridiculous. I have seen church splits over SINGLE WORDS. Why? Because of what is IN the hearts of the people. Few want to 'look to themselves' in these matters and see that the 'source' of conflict IS WITHIN themselves. They simply LOCK AND LOAD on a position and then go out hunting and condemning others.

An example? Jesus said that MAN SHALL LIVE by every Word of God. Yet there are DEATH WORDS to MAN in the scriptures.

My own belief? If any reader does not love their fellow man, GOD will NOT open the scriptures to them and they will FALL into CONFUSION. This too is scriptural.

As to predestination, a good primer is Romans 11:25-32 wherein ALL OF ISRAEL shall be SAVED, yes, even the ENEMIES of the Gospel who are beloved for the sake of the elect. There are other scriptures to confirm this statement of Paul. But if ones DOCTRINES do not allow that, they will NEVER see it, and they will also seek to DESTROY that WORD, because the DESTROYER in reality is in their own hearts being reflected therein when THEY READ.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Vince]

(sigh) Does God enlighten EVERY man who comes into the world, "Not the children of the devil or the wicked one?"

Let's look at John 1:9 again:

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.


You readers who are following this; Mani and St. Augustine correctly understood that accepting unconditional election was a rejection of Scripture. I hope you're seeing the same thing.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

sigh) Does God enlighten EVERY man who comes into the world,

Nope, men by nature come into the world darkness and in darkness.

 

[Vince]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 8

We saw that one reason that God hardened Pharaoh's heart was to show the Egyptians that there is no one else like Him.
Exodus 14:17-18 gives another reason why God hardened Pharaoh's heart:

"And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them [into the Red Sea]. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD...."

How many Egyptians got saved when they came to destruction? We don't know, but we do know that God said "Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to bring the Egyptians to salvation.

 

[smaller]

Hey Vince, if you're quoting some cut and paste from a source, you should cite it. (Part 8 etc.) That way those who have studied these various positions don't have to wait for you to get to all the various punch lines.

 

[Vince]

Hey Vince, if you're quoting some cut and paste from a source, you should cite it. (Part 8 etc.) That way those who have studied these various positions don't have to wait for you to get to all the various punch lines.

I have often pointed out that Calvinism is a religion of fear and accusations.

These articles are written solely from my own studies.

 

[smaller]

I have often pointed out that Calvinism is a religion of fear and accusations.

These articles are written solely from my own studies.

Many believers see Calvinism for what it is, and detest same.

But, that is not the ONLY view of Predestination.

Predestination is a portion of promises in the scriptures in many counts.

God predestined to love all mankind and expressed Love in His Image, Jesus Christ.

God has predestined to take a people for and unto Himself.

God has predestined to destroy all evil and death forever.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

I have often pointed out that Calvinism is a religion of fear and accusations.

These articles are written solely from my own studies.

All you are doing is showing your oppostion to Gods revealed Truth and Justifying it by calling it by the name of a man name calvin.

 

[Vince]

All you are doing is showing your oppostion to Gods revealed Truth and Justifying it by calling it by the name of a man name calvin.


Actually, unconditional election was invented by the false prophet Mani, who clearly understood that it entailed a rejection of Christianity.

The Manichaean philosopher, St. Augustine, also recognized unconditional election as a pagan doctrine that he wanted to blend into Christianity (along with statue worship, Mary worship, and infant baptism) in order to achieve Mani's goal of forming a new and better religion.

John Calvin invented the new doctrine that unconditional election is found in Scripture, which neither Mani nor St. Augustine believed. But first, he got the doctrine from St. Augustine, not from the Word of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

All you are doing is showing your oppostion to Gods revealed Truth and Justifying it by calling it by the name of a man name calvin.


Actually, unconditional election was invented by the false prophet Mani, who clearly understood that it entailed a rejection of Christianity.

The Manichaean philosopher, St. Augustine, also recognized unconditional election as a pagan doctrine that he wanted to blend into Christianity (along with statue worship, Mary worship, and infant baptism) in order to achieve Mani's goal of forming a new and better religion.

John Calvin invented the new doctrine that unconditional election is found in Scripture, which neither Mani nor St. Augustine believed. But first, he got the doctrine from St. Augustine, not from the Word of God.

Again:

All you are doing is showing your oppostion to Gods revealed Truth and Justifying it by calling it by the name of a man name calvin.

 

[Vince]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 9

Calvinists often quote Romans 9 to assert their doctrines:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Calvinists then teach the following errors:

1) The passage is talking about two men
2) The passage is talking about the eternal spiritual state of these two men
3) That God's choice was unconditional

 

[Drew]

DOES GOD FORCE INNOCENT MEN TO SIN? PART 9

Calvinists often quote Romans 9 to assert their doctrines:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Calvinists then teach the following errors:

1) The passage is talking about two men
2) The passage is talking about the eternal spiritual state of these two men
3) That God's choice was unconditional

Agree - to see this text as an example of election of individuals to an eternal fate is simply to decide that Paul should not be taken seriously when he tells us explicitly what the election was all about - that the one should serve the other.

Try as I might, I see no statement that "the one should go to hell and the other to heaven".

Even though I do not think this is what Paul is doing, it would be at least plausible to suggest that Paul gives us this example of God making a "non eternal destiny related" election (or choice) in support of a point he will make later - that some are elected to heaven and some to hell.

I do not think this is what Paul is doing, but at least it is a point of view that does not involve shamelessly over-ruling Paul in respect to what he is saying about Jacob and Esau in particular. And what he says about those two is - yes, it is there in plain print - the older will serve the younger.

Remember - the word "election" does not, as a word unto itself, have anything to do with eternal fates. The word means "choice". So just because the word "election" is used does not mean that issues of eternal destiny are on the table.

When you guys elected Obama President, was that an "election unto an eternal destiny"?

 

[Vince]

Many of you know that "irresistible grace" is not based on Scripture. But you might be surprised to know that it is not based on a misunderstanding of Scripture, either. Irresistible grace is a philosophical patch, invented in the seventeenth century, to cover a fatal philosophical flaw in Calvin's philosophical system.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/invention-irresistible-grace-27914/