Predestination

[Drew]

As it is used in the Scriptures it is never in connection with things but always with people. God doesn't presestinate things He predestinates people. There is a completely different word for God's foreordering of things that happen, foreordination.

Can you defend this distinction please. And please note: even if it is indeed the case that the word "pre-destine" is only ever used with people, it should not be simply assume that the "thing" that is pre-destined is that person's eternal destiny.

But regardless of specific words, there are clear cases where God arranges the world so that a certain outcome occurs, even if it is not the eternal fate of some person. In Romans 9, Paul argues, by clear allusion to Old Testament text, that the nation of Edom (whose father was Esau) was to "serve" the nation of Israel (represented by Jacob).

This is an example of God making "advance choices" about something other than eternal destinies of individuals. Call it what you like, the Scriptures are clear - God "determines in advance" all kinds of things that have nothing to do with eternal destinies.

 

[mlqurgw]

Can you defend this distinction please. And please note: even if it is indeed the case that the word "pre-destine" is only ever used with people, it should not be simply assume that the "thing" that is pre-destined is that person's eternal destiny.

But regardless of specific words, there are clear cases where God arranges the world so that a certain outcome occurs, even if it is not the eternal fate of some person. In Romans 9, Paul argues, by clear allusion to Old Testament text, that the nation of Edom (whose father was Esau) was to "serve" the nation of Israel (represented by Jacob).

This is an example of God making "advance choices" about something other than eternal destinies of individuals. Call it what you like, the Scriptures are clear - God "determines in advance" all kinds of things that have nothing to do with eternal destinies.

Yes I can defend it. The very word itself dictates that it means to determine beforehand the destiny. As I said God's determining in advance the things that happen falls under foreordination not predestination. As I said I do understand the way the word is commonly used and can work within that framework but the distinction is clear and important to understand.

 

[Drew]

Yes I can defend it. The very word itself dictates that it means to determine beforehand the destiny. As I said God's determining in advance the things that happen falls under foreordination not predestination. As I said I do understand the way the word is commonly used and can work within that framework but the distinction is clear and important to understand.

You are begging the question.

In any event, I suggest that the real issue here is this: you believe that certain texts speak about God "pre-destining" individuals to an eternal destiny. I believe that they are indeed about God "pre-destining" something, just not the eternal fate individuals.

Take our famous friend Esau and Jacob. What is Paul really saying? What does the text actually support?

In Romans 9, the eternal status of Jacob and Esau is nowhere on Paul's mind. The following text does not even address the issue of eternal destinies of Jacob or Esau. Paul tells us what they are "elected to" - that one will serve the other:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

The word election here means "choice". And what is the choice? Well what does Paul say? It is God's choice that the nation of Edom (Esau) will be dominated by the nation of Israel (Jacob). How do we know this? Paul tells us. He writes that Rebekah was told the purpose of God's choice. And he quotes from Genesis:

The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger

And history shows that this came to pass - the Israelites did dominate the Edomites. And Paul knew this, of course.

Imagine Paul sitting there with his scribe, having just dictated "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". Where does this statement leave the reader? Obviously, it leaves the reader asking "Well, what is that purpose? What is God "choosing" or "selecting" Jacob and Esau for, exactly?"

So Paul answers this question: They were chosen / selected / elected to a state where "the older will serve the younger". Eternal destiny is nowhere in sight.

If Paul is addressing selection or election to eternal life or eternal loss in relation to Jacob and Esau, you have to believe that, after raising the topic of God’s purpose in election, Paul has suffered a sudden bout of amnesia and makes an entirely unannounced and immediate transition to a different subject altogether - the issue of something else that God selected these two for. That is, one serving the other.

What kind of a writer would do that ? First, state that God has one purpose in selection (election) for two people, and then spell out the details of an entirely different election?

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

How is this a constructive contribution?

I am being truthful.

 

[Vince]

Not only is "predestination" only used to refer to people, it is only used to refer to being adopted as sons and being conformed to God's image. Predestination to Heaven, to Hell, to salvation, etc., are philosophies of men.

 

[Roel]

I think the thing many christians have a hard time reconciling is predestination coupled with free-will of man.

This where I see many christian writers and comentators (including you guys on this forum) stumble, some cant conceptualize that God says every amn is free to make his own choices in regards to salvation - yet God preordained it and controlled your salvation before any of us were flesh - so how can man have free-will?

Islam has addressed and dealt with this issue - which is a fundemetal beleif.

I wont give you guys a lesson in Ashari Aqeedah - but I wonder how you guys hash this out amongst yourselves?

Well, it seems that there is a quarrel on this topic between Catholics and other Christian denominations. Christians/ Protestants/ Reformists seem to have the same view as Muslims on the matter. That is; God has preordained everything. I don't think Catholics contradict that completeley, but we do think that -independently if God already knows everything- a person still has to fulfil that preordination and make a choice regarding God and Jesus and the path to follow in life. That choice implies a certain amount of free will, on an individual level at least.

Furthermore, I'd like to add as a argument. Jesus, and all prophets for that matter, talk and teach about life and about making the right choices. Why would they do so, if there is no free will. Why would Mohammed teach about how to live a life. He might as well have concluded the Qur'an in one line: "Well guys, Allah has already preordaned everything, so just sit the ride out and hope for the best." Jesus could have said: "Live your life as you wish, because my father has already decides whether you go to heaven or not." Nevertheless, this is not the case. Both dedicate their lifes on teaching others so that they may make the right choices. Why? Because the fate of a single person has not been sealed yet. One has to make choices and do the right thing through his or her own free wil.

 

[Vince]

Welcome aboard, Roel. Your insights are appreciated.

 

[Drew]

drew:



I am being truthful.

So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I used to be against this...not so much anymore. What're your thoughts?

Simple -

I don't understand all it's ramifications - NOBODY does.

It has no Practical effect on how I live my life or relate to others, and never will have any.

It's essentially a philosophical abstract, nothing more.

So I'm neither "Against" it, or "For" it. It doesn't matter one way or another.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"?

I cannot undeceive you. And to this point, it is Gods will for you to be deceived, Its not His will for you to be proven the Truth..

 

[Vince]

"And to this point, it is Gods will for you to be deceived, Its not His will for you to be proven the Truth.. "

That philosophy was invented by men cursed by God, and fortunately for all of us, it isn't true.

"i TImothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

That philosophy was invented by men cursed by God, and fortunately for all of us, it isn't true.

It is True. God sends many a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

"i TImothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I dont know about your god, but the God I serve and worship what He desires, Job 23:


13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

 

[Drew]

I cannot undeceive you. And to this point, it is Gods will for you to be deceived, Its not His will for you to be proven the Truth..

You are not answering a clear, well-posed question. Here it is again:

"So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"? "

 

[Vince]

2 thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The context shows that this verse refers to people who are left behind at the Rapture. They will be deceived by the Antichrist and will receive condemnation. As a result of the many great plagues sent during the Tribulation, many of them will accept Christ.

Folks, one of Calvinism's many errors is the belief that you can pile up Scripture to refute Scripture: "I have five verses and you have three, so your verses must be false." The verses Calvinists use to refute Scripture, upon examination, do not teach what the Calvinists claim.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You are not answering a clear, well-posed question. Here it is again:

"So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"? "

All of them..take your pick..

 

[savedbygrace57]

2 thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The context shows that this verse refers to people who are left behind at the Rapture. They will be deceived by the Antichrist and will receive condemnation. As a result of the many great plagues sent during the Tribulation, many of them will accept Christ.

Folks, one of Calvinism's many errors is the belief that you can pile up Scripture to refute Scripture: "I have five verses and you have three, so your verses must be false." The verses Calvinists use to refute Scripture, upon examination, do not teach what the Calvinists claim.

See even you believe a lie..

 

[Vince]

In addition to being a religion of fear and accusations, Calvinism relies heavily on piling up Scripture to refute Scripture, even though the Scriptures do not contradict each other. For instance:

I dont know about your god, but the God I serve and worship [does] what He desires, Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Indeed, God cannot be defeated. If God wanted to turn men into helpless robots who would be forced to pretend to turn to Christ, He could do so. But He does not want to.

 

[Drew]

All of them..take your pick..

You are being evasive.

You made a serious assertion.

Now man up and prove it.

Again:

"So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"?"

 

[savedbygrace57]

You are being evasive.

You made a serious assertion.

Now man up and prove it.

Again:

"So if you are being "truthful" in your assertion that I am being deceived, and since the only knowledge you have of me is via my posts, please tell us - what specific evidence from any of my posts can you bring forth to make a case that I am "deceived"?"

All of your post are specific evidence, take your pick.