Predestination

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

You obviously limit the elect to only whom YOU personally think.

No God limits the elect !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 11:25-32 clearly indicates that blinded enemies of the Gospel who are ISRAEL are loved of God for the sake of their fathers, regardless of their present blinding.

All Gods elect are His enemies by nature Rom 5:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[smaller]

You are in trouble if God has never given you eyes to see that your sins have been laid upon Christ to die for.

Christ died for my sins 1 cor 15:3

and on behalf of all those He died for, He has destroyed the works of the devil.

So, are you going to make the claim of being SINLESS? That you do not SIN in thought, word or deed? I have seen MANY the determinist fall into that LIE because that IS a set bait in text to find LIARS.

heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The destruction you speak of has not transpired yet. I am quite sure that 1 John 3:9 presents quite an obstacle for you:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Not 'I can commit SIN in the name of Jesus' and GET OFF THE HOOK regardless.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

So, are you going to make the claim of being SINLESS?

Rabbit trail.

 

[smaller]

smaller:

Rabbit trail.

Non-answer is answer.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Non-answer is answer.

Rabbit trail.

 

[Vince]

there is never a verse that says , lost people, angels, satan, jews and ect have not been predestinated to hell, but they have.

Now, we're getting somewhere. You realize that the Bible does not teach that anyone is predestined to be lost. Since you didn't get the doctrine from the Scriptures, what man did you get it from?

 

[smaller]

there is never a verse that says , lost people, angels, satan, jews and ect have not been predestinated to hell, but they have.

Now, we're getting somewhere. You realize that the Bible does not teach that anyone is predestined to be lost. Since you didn't get the doctrine from the Scriptures, what man did you get it from?

Paul did not present that vessels of dishonour will be saved anywhere in the text. No writer in scripture has made a claim that a CHILD OF THE DEVIL was turned INTO a child of God.

Devils are assuredly scheduled by PREDESTINATION into HELL/the Lake of Fire. It was WRITTEN, not yet transpired.

That means IT'S PREDESTINED for them to arrive in THE LAKE no matter what.

 

[Vince]

"Devils are assuredly scheduled by PREDESTINATION into HELL/the Lake of Fire."

The Bible makes no such statement.

But it does bring up an interesting point. Many Christians are surprised to learn that the Bible does not teach that demons are fallen angels. MAYBE they are. But the origin of demons is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Did God force demons to sin, so that He could punish them? Psalm 145:9 tells us: The LORD is good to all, And His tender mercies are over all His works.

God never predestined anyone to Hell, nor did He ever force anyone to sin.

 

[smaller]

"Devils are assuredly scheduled by PREDESTINATION into HELL/the Lake of Fire."

The Bible makes no such statement.

R U A Satanic salvation proponent then Vince?

But it does bring up an interesting point. Many Christians are surprised to learn that the Bible does not teach that demons are fallen angels.

I understand that they are NOT taught as such. That does not address this issue or the two scriptura quotes prior that says THEY are heading to the FIRE and LAKE OF FIRE. Care to take that on or continue to bypass?

MAYBE they are. But the origin of demons is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Jesus does a fairly good job in John 8:44 about the the devil from the beginning. 1 John 3:8 does a good job as well.

Did God force demons to sin, so that He could punish them? Psalm 145:9 tells us: The LORD is good to all, And His tender mercies are over all His works.

God can be lenient and long suffering with His enemies. God can MAKE enemies such as the devil with the sole intent to DESTROY them all.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Psalm 145:20
The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

God never predestined anyone to Hell, nor did He ever force anyone to sin.

Devils are going to the Lake of Fire for destruction. There is no getting around this matter. They are predestined to go there just as the scriptures state and teach.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

You realize that the Bible does not teach that anyone is predestined to be lost

No I do not realize that, because some have been predestined to be lost, the vessels of wrath created for destruction.

rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The wicked, made for the day of evil Prov 16:

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This was prearranged, put in order, by Gods decree !

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

Did God force demons to sin, so that He could punish them?

Nope, He caused them to sin willingly so He could punish them.

 

[Vince]

"They are predestined to go there just as the scriptures state and teach."

The Scriptures make no such statement.

Readers, I hope you're learning something. Calvinists are not teaching the Bible. They are teaching the philosophies of men. The Bible teaches that God predestines the saints to be adopted as sons and to be conformed to the image of His Son. Period. All other predestinations are the philosophies of men.

 

[smaller]

"They are predestined to go there just as the scriptures state and teach."

The Scriptures make no such statement.

Devils ARE or ARE NOT going into the LAKE OF FIRE?

It's a simple question.

Readers, I hope you're learning something.

Feelin' a squeeze and appealing to the masses ain't gonna help yer cause.

Calvinists are not teaching the Bible. They are teaching the philosophies of men. The Bible teaches that God predestines the saints to be adopted as sons and to be conformed to the image of His Son. Period. All other predestinations are the philosophies of men.

Are or Are Not on Devils going to the LAKE OF FIRE? (ABOUT the 3rd request, 'readers.' heh)

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

The Scriptures make no such statement.

The scriptures do not deny such statement !

 

[Drew]

vince:



The scriptures do not deny such statement !

This is a tactic you repeatedly use on this board and other boards on which you participate.

I hope we can set the record straight on this matter once and for all.

The fact that the Bible never asserts X, or never denies X, as the case may be, is not definitive.

So, for example, the fact that the Bible never asserts "men have some degree of self-determining free will" does not mean that this is not so. For this example, it could easily be the case that the reality of a measure of self-determining free in humans is considered to be so self-evident so that it need not be stated.

Similarly, the fact that the Bible never explicitly denies that people are pre-destined to an eternal fate is not, in and of itself, grounds for concluding that people are, in fact, pre-destined to an eternal fate.

 

[Drew]

vince:



No I do not realize that, because some have been predestined to be lost, the vessels of wrath created for destruction.

rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

As I am prepared to argue in hideous and no doubt annoying (to you, anyway) detail: this is not a statement about the pre-destination of individuals to an eternal fate. Understood in context, this is Paul's statement that most Jews have been hardened in God's historical plan of redemption so that sin can be dealt with on the cross, and that salvation can be made available to all the world.

In short, if we follow Paul's argument, we are driven to conclude that the "vessels of destruction" here are Jews and Jews only, hardened only in particular interval of history in service of God's grand plan of redemption.

 

[smaller]

As I am prepared to argue in hideous and no doubt annoying (to you, anyway) detail: this is not a statement about the pre-destination of individuals to an eternal fate. Understood in context, this is Paul's statement that most Jews have been hardened in God's historical plan of redemption so that sin can be dealt with on the cross, and that salvation can be made available to all the world.

In short, if we follow Paul's argument, we are driven to conclude that the "vessels of destruction" here are Jews and Jews only, hardened only in particular interval of history in service of God's grand plan of redemption.

What a ridiculous notion. God hardened Pharaoh and Esau. God can harden BELIEVERS when they get TOO HIGH MINDED against JEWS too. Did you forget already?

Your statement above is patently FALSE.

Romans 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

ANY person can be MADE BLIND by GODS RAISING and PLACING upon them A SPIRIT OF STUPOR just as God DID with the unbelieving JEWS.

The WARNING is there to people of FAITH and it is there FOR A REASON that can happen in ANYONE, if God so elects. Particularly when they start BLOWING SMOKE and FIRE upon GOD BLINDED JEWS.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

As I am prepared to argue in hideous and no doubt annoying (to you,

anyway) detail:

You can argue and debate the Truth all you want, the truth remains and you are accountable for it before God !!

 

[Drew]

What a ridiculous notion.

Since the arguments I will present are indeed quite compelling, I suggest that you do not take such a rude and dismissive tone.

God hardened Pharaoh and Esau. God can harden BELIEVERS when they get TOO HIGH MINDED against JEWS too. Did you forget already?

I have never denied that God can harden whoever He wants to harden. That has no impact on my argument - that in Romans 9, Paul is writing about a specifically historical hardening of Jews (and Jews only) by God.

Your statement above is patently FALSE.

Romans 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

ANY person can be MADE BLIND by GODS RAISING and PLACING upon them A SPIRIT OF STUPOR just as God DID with the unbelieving JEWS.

The WARNING is there to people of FAITH and it is there FOR A REASON that can happen in ANYONE, if God so elects. Particularly when they start BLOWING SMOKE and FIRE upon GOD BLINDED JEWS.

s

Your assertion here misses the point. God can, of course, do whatever He wants. But the point is that Romans 9 to 11 is a treatment about how God has hardened (most) Jews in order to set the stage for the events of the cross.

As I will show, Romans 9 and the first bit of 10 presents a historical account of God's dealing with the nation of Israel. And central to that account is that God has, just like a potter, "hardened" the nation of Israel.

The warning you quote from Romans 11 does no damage at all to the position I am advancing - in fact if anything it supports it. In the text you quote, Paul is warning Gentiles to not look down on Jews even though God has indeed hardened them.