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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
Seems to me your god is helpless, he cannot even accomplish what he desires.
Seems to me your god is helpless, he cannot even accomplish what he desires.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Predestination
- Thread starter Oats
- Start date
SavedbyGrace, I'm glad that you're learning that the God of the Bible and the god of Mani are not the same.
When the Bible tells us that "God so loved the world...", the disciples of Christ believe that God loved the world, while the disciples of Calvin (who was deceived by Mani) believe that this verse means that God only loves some.
When the Word of God tells us that "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men," the disciples of Christ believe that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, while the disciples of Calvin believe that verse teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation appears to some men.
Readers, I hope that you also see this. A Christian cannot serve two masters. You can follow Christ or Calvin, but you can't follow both.
When the Bible tells us that "God so loved the world...", the disciples of Christ believe that God loved the world, while the disciples of Calvin (who was deceived by Mani) believe that this verse means that God only loves some.
When the Word of God tells us that "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men," the disciples of Christ believe that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, while the disciples of Calvin believe that verse teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation appears to some men.
Readers, I hope that you also see this. A Christian cannot serve two masters. You can follow Christ or Calvin, but you can't follow both.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
He Loved the world of His Church eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Jesus Christ did not love the world He did not pray for Jn 17:
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He Loved the World that was comprised of men and women given to Him by His Father, His Church ! and He gave Himself for it !
You misapply scripture, for the word world does not always mean every single individual in the world.
He Loved the world of His Church eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Jesus Christ did not love the world He did not pray for Jn 17:
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He Loved the World that was comprised of men and women given to Him by His Father, His Church ! and He gave Himself for it !
You misapply scripture, for the word world does not always mean every single individual in the world.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
Thats right, that Grace brings Salvation to all sorts of men, not make an offer or make salvation available, but this Grace comes in power and converts the men and women it brings salvation to and begins to teach them to:
titus 2:
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
This is a Sovereign Work of Grace that accomplishes the conversion of all Gods chosen ones.
This again shows your lack of understanding of scripture !
Thats right, that Grace brings Salvation to all sorts of men, not make an offer or make salvation available, but this Grace comes in power and converts the men and women it brings salvation to and begins to teach them to:
titus 2:
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
This is a Sovereign Work of Grace that accomplishes the conversion of all Gods chosen ones.
This again shows your lack of understanding of scripture !
smaller
Member
There are to me, many flaws in Calvinist understandings. Some are semi-accurate, but the entire construct is very jaded toward believers KNOWING they are in fact the ELECT and then Calvin, a supposed 'ELECT' making his doctrinal construct.
The core of the fault is quite simple, even from their own place of determinations and determinism.
Here is that frailty in a nutshell:
NO determinist of the Calvin variety KNOWS for a certain fact that THEY are the ELECT or are even SAVED. They WILL NOT and CAN NOT know until GOD HIMSELF makes that 'determination.'
Any Calvinist then making such 'determinations' may also for a fact MAY NOT be 'an ELECT' or even SAVED. They, in their own understandings MUST persevere to prove themselves, and even then, they remain uncertain as to finality and accuracy of being same.
To me, this seems to be a very fragile position. It may or could possibly be that NONE of them were Elect and Able to make their determinations by their own standards.
This is just one flaw. Will say again that some of their understandings are semi-accurate.
All of us see only in part. Therefore many hardliner constructs are in fact only partial vision constructs. These again MAY be faulted in many ways because of PARTIAL VISION.
Elijah himself was NOT AWARE that God had a REMNANT of 7,000 that had NOT bowed the knee to Baal, and thought it was himself ALONE speaking for God. (N.T. citing Romans 11)
God often keeps HIS ELECT hidden from the views of his own prophets. He can very well keep same hidden from the constructions of Calvinism.
A (partial KEY) to understanding the ELECT?
Those who do not BOW THEIR KNEE to Satan.
enjoy!
smaller
The core of the fault is quite simple, even from their own place of determinations and determinism.
Here is that frailty in a nutshell:
NO determinist of the Calvin variety KNOWS for a certain fact that THEY are the ELECT or are even SAVED. They WILL NOT and CAN NOT know until GOD HIMSELF makes that 'determination.'
Any Calvinist then making such 'determinations' may also for a fact MAY NOT be 'an ELECT' or even SAVED. They, in their own understandings MUST persevere to prove themselves, and even then, they remain uncertain as to finality and accuracy of being same.
To me, this seems to be a very fragile position. It may or could possibly be that NONE of them were Elect and Able to make their determinations by their own standards.
This is just one flaw. Will say again that some of their understandings are semi-accurate.
All of us see only in part. Therefore many hardliner constructs are in fact only partial vision constructs. These again MAY be faulted in many ways because of PARTIAL VISION.
Elijah himself was NOT AWARE that God had a REMNANT of 7,000 that had NOT bowed the knee to Baal, and thought it was himself ALONE speaking for God. (N.T. citing Romans 11)
God often keeps HIS ELECT hidden from the views of his own prophets. He can very well keep same hidden from the constructions of Calvinism.
A (partial KEY) to understanding the ELECT?
Those who do not BOW THEIR KNEE to Satan.
enjoy!
smaller
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Both Election and Reprobation are integral parts or aspects of Predestination, in Preaching all the Counsel of God.
acts 20:
27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Paul declared the hated doctrines of sovereign election and reprobation rom 9 !
eph 1:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
All of the counsel of God is Eternal, because there is no beginning in the thoughts of God in His creative purposes ps 33:
11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
When were the Thoughts of the Eternal God formed ? Were they not as Everlasting as God ?
ps 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Yes, Gods thoughts and counsel are as Eternal and firm as He is, and its inclusive of all things and beings created, men ,angels, stars the moon, the sun, animals and every creepy thing; and God has from before the foundation of the world decreed in His Eternal wisdom and counsel, how things shall be eternally, yes, the destiny of all His creatures has been predetermined by His counsel before we do any good or evil [ rom 9:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth]
That His Eternal Counsel might stand as in ps 33:
11The counsel [purpose] of the LORD standeth for ever,
So the purpose of Election and Reprobation standeth forever !
God determined[predestined] the end of all things from the beginning isa 46:
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
acts 20:
27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Paul declared the hated doctrines of sovereign election and reprobation rom 9 !
eph 1:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
All of the counsel of God is Eternal, because there is no beginning in the thoughts of God in His creative purposes ps 33:
11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
When were the Thoughts of the Eternal God formed ? Were they not as Everlasting as God ?
ps 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Yes, Gods thoughts and counsel are as Eternal and firm as He is, and its inclusive of all things and beings created, men ,angels, stars the moon, the sun, animals and every creepy thing; and God has from before the foundation of the world decreed in His Eternal wisdom and counsel, how things shall be eternally, yes, the destiny of all His creatures has been predetermined by His counsel before we do any good or evil [ rom 9:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth]
That His Eternal Counsel might stand as in ps 33:
11The counsel [purpose] of the LORD standeth for ever,
So the purpose of Election and Reprobation standeth forever !
God determined[predestined] the end of all things from the beginning isa 46:
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
smaller:
Then you nullify Peters imperative, and make it nonsense 2 pet 1:
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
You also make void Johns writings 1 jn 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Thats why you and I serve different God's, I am thankful I serve not your god.
Then you nullify Peters imperative, and make it nonsense 2 pet 1:
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
You also make void Johns writings 1 jn 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Thats why you and I serve different God's, I am thankful I serve not your god.
smaller
Member
And you do not appear to know your 'Calvinism' very well.
In the hardline doctrine of Calvinism NONE of them know for certain they are SAVED. ALL such are 'subject to failure' until the VERY END.
s
Actually, Smaller, there is a good variation on what you wrote: no Calvinist can know that he is saved.
When people profess to be Christians and then fall away, showing that they were never really saved, the Calvinist explanation is that God misled them because they are vessels of His wrath. Therefor, no Calvinist can be sure that God is not lying to him about his salvation.
When people profess to be Christians and then fall away, showing that they were never really saved, the Calvinist explanation is that God misled them because they are vessels of His wrath. Therefor, no Calvinist can be sure that God is not lying to him about his salvation.
smaller
Member
That is more or less what I was pointing out. There is no determinitive way for any determinist to say for a fact they are saved. That can only be known when they are actually judged by God Himself to be 'an elect.' Until that time they ALL are only guessing.
Many who hold the OSAS position, also hold the same position, that they cannot know.
All quite odd to me, to make claims to their positions and not knowing they are the 'elect' making those claims.
I only point out this fact to show one frailty of Calvins form of determinism, that there is no proven 'elect' in this present life. The claims 'could' very well be made by tares, and there is no way to 'prove' as the 'elect' themselves are only proven AFTER their individual perseverance is complete and proved BY GOD.
Viscious little circle in my view of same.
There are many other faults with the positions, but as stated, in theirs as in any others there is always SOME truth to the positions.
I reject Calvinisms doctrine of total depravity APART from the workings of Satan in mankind. With the intermingling of Satan, then YES, there is TOTAL DEPRAVITY but it is NOT solely based then upon THE MAN and cannot logically BE solely upon the MAN.
Sin all who sin are in fact OF THE DEVIL there is the TOTAL DEPRAVED ONE right there and it is NOT just man.
See how easy then Total Depravity of ONLY man is eradicated? Common sense eradicates that view.
Unconditional election I agree with. No merit of man earns Grace. Men are led of God to FIND Grace. This I believe happens when ANYONE speaks the TRUTH of God in the Gospel. All are called to seek His Grace. Some are led of God in their heart to FIND same.
EVERYONE believes in LIMITED ATONEMENT. Most who hold to UNLIMITED ATONEMENT do not understand the depths of the subject matter.
Irresisible Grace? Sorry, that is also proven FALSE. IF the DEVIL is involved with SIN then the DEVIL is NOT going to be drawn to Grace, but will RESIST same. That is how those entities work. They RESIST God, in particular HIS GRACE and will NOT be the recipients of same.
Men however can NOT resist if they are drawn by God. Here Calvinism again FAILS to 'fully define' ALL the parties.
I think most of us could agree that it is possible to fall AWAY in this present life and BACK into the clutches of SATAN. I do not consider that a FALLEN BELIEVER is eternally lost as there is not one example of such a thing in the text. No, not one.
Here is HOW one passes from DEATH to LIFE:
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
The above really is THE ONLY WAY to perceive a BELIEVER from an UNbeliever.
I seek death upon NO OTHER BELIEVER. The LIFE I have received from God in Christ will remain in my heart to be shared WITH MY BROTHERS who have same received.
Those who cannot ENTER by THE WAY OF LIFE, do in fact ABIDE IN DEATH even as they walk to 'others.'
We know 'them' by their FRUITS. NOT by their doctrines.
No doctrine of MAN can CONJURE UP LOVE.
enjoy!
smaller
smaller
Member
I have GREAT respect for MANY determinist theologians, who are in fact THE FIRST to point to the frailties of the position.
Karl Barth is probably my personal favorite. So, please do not get me wrong. I do respect DEEP DELVING...
The holders of any positions who FIERCLY TEST their own positions, as Barth DID, are the absolute BEST theologians imho.
Barth was rejected by MANY hardline determinists when he WEAKENED that BASE by FACTS, and PRAISED by the Pope!
Very smart man, very smart. Definately LED by THE SPIRIT of God in Christ to MUCH wisdom. I listen to him because his foundational understanding was, he acknowledged that he ONLY SAW IN PART.
To that fact I do BOW to any man honest enough to come forth with SIMPLE FACT and build thereupon, knowing our own places in these matters.
WE DO NOT BUILD on the foundation of MEN.
Now, take that same measure to the INFALLIBLE CHAIR of St. Peter. How infallible can a MAN or ANY GROUP of partial sighters be INFALLIBLE?
Sorry. That did not happen. Those who sit in that seat are PROVEN false by any simpleton with common sense.
Partial sighters CAN NOT BE INFALLIBLE!
May all walls of FALLACY and FALSENESS fall IN TRUTH, and not even with A HAND of MAN.
enjoy!
smaller
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
smaller:
Maybe not, but by Gods Grace, I know the scripture !
Maybe not, but by Gods Grace, I know the scripture !
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
If one cannot know of their election of God, then paul deceived the Thessalonians when He wrote unto them.
1 thess 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
The word know here is the greek word:eido and means:
to know
a) to know of anything
b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
And its in the Perfect Tense, which means Knowledge received in the past once and for all with results into the future.
The same word construction is used here 2 thess 3:
7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
So, is it possible for them not to know how they ought to follow Paul ? When Paul simply says they do know !
They knew in the past evidently when Paul was among them.
Its the same as their election, they knew of it in the past by the results it produced during Paul's evangelistic campaign among them, for they received the word of God:
1 thess 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
This was proof of their election ! And they knew it !
So, its only unlearned people who go around proclaiming that one cannot know of their election before God.
1 thess 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
The word know here is the greek word:eido and means:
to know
a) to know of anything
b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
And its in the Perfect Tense, which means Knowledge received in the past once and for all with results into the future.
The same word construction is used here 2 thess 3:
7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
So, is it possible for them not to know how they ought to follow Paul ? When Paul simply says they do know !
They knew in the past evidently when Paul was among them.
Its the same as their election, they knew of it in the past by the results it produced during Paul's evangelistic campaign among them, for they received the word of God:
1 thess 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
This was proof of their election ! And they knew it !
So, its only unlearned people who go around proclaiming that one cannot know of their election before God.
smaller
Member
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
2 tim 3:
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
smaller
Member
2 tim 3:
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
No christian poster disagrees with scripture.
Partial sight remains for all of us as a simple fact. None see As God.
A believer who applies all and only the GOOD SCRIPTURES to themselves is not much familiar with the LEFT HAND of God.
enjoy!
s
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
smaller:
Then you better check yourself , because thats what I have been witnessing to you, and you have been rejecting.
Then you better check yourself , because thats what I have been witnessing to you, and you have been rejecting.
smaller
Member
I receive witnesses who accept ALL GODS WORDS unto themselves.
Yes, even THE BAD ONES.
enjoy!
smaller
Continuing our discussion on Calvinism's attacks on the God of the Bible:
Saint Augustine and John Calvin both erroneously taught that those who are dead in trespasses and sins cannot respond to God (The Bible teaches no such thing), even though the Bible gives at least three New Testament instances of a dead person hearing and obeying Jesus.
So some Calvinists invented the doctrine that God forces a person to be born again (regenerated) against his will, and then forces the born-again person to accept Christ. But after being born again, the person is a new man, and a new creation. The original person never did turn to Christ.
CAN God force mindless robots to pretend to turn to Christ? Yes, but He doesn't want to. He wants sinners to genuinely turn to Him, and so He draws all men to Christ.
Saint Augustine and John Calvin both erroneously taught that those who are dead in trespasses and sins cannot respond to God (The Bible teaches no such thing), even though the Bible gives at least three New Testament instances of a dead person hearing and obeying Jesus.
So some Calvinists invented the doctrine that God forces a person to be born again (regenerated) against his will, and then forces the born-again person to accept Christ. But after being born again, the person is a new man, and a new creation. The original person never did turn to Christ.
CAN God force mindless robots to pretend to turn to Christ? Yes, but He doesn't want to. He wants sinners to genuinely turn to Him, and so He draws all men to Christ.