Bible Study Predestination

[Malachi]

While we connect predestination for salvation with Calvin, it is really broader than Calvin and is at the heart of Reformed Theology, as expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Chapter III Section V denies that election is according to foreknowledge, but Scripture affirms this (1 Pet 1:2). Chapter III Section VII tells us that many are predestined for Hell. Once again this has no basis in Scripture. Indeed ALL are invited to partake of the Water of Life FREELY, since whosoever will may come (Rev 22:17)

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Those who hold to Reformed Theology are simply blind to what is stated in John 3:16. Indeed some of them even claim that the word "world" does not refer to all of humanity, since if it did, they would have to throw out this teaching. How can the pre-assignment of souls to Hell be "to the praise of His glorious justice"? But since the focus is wrongly on God's sovereignty rather than God's infinite grace, we have this distortion of the Gospel. It is simply amazing that just when the true Gospel should have been proclaimed, it become a different Gospel because the Reformers were in bondage primarily to Augustine.

 

[Deborah13]

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Election is by grace through faith.....
Paul, is explaining to the Jews about who the chosen people of God are. Not all those of Israel are Israel.
He says they are not/will not be God's people, because they were born a Jew, or because they do the works of the Law.
Salvation is by the promise both to Abraham and Sarah, and to Rebecca.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Malachi]

We can thank Augustine for the distortion of predestination, although at the beginning his view of election according to foreknowledge was consistent with Scripture:

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice and deeds.

Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called “double predestination” was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1).

Augustine’s strong predestinarian views influenced a number of Roman Catholic thinkers in history, but has been, for the most part, ignored by their modern counterparts. Augustine’s basic perspectives on this topic were embraced largely by such Protestant Reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and are still reflected today in the historic confessional statements of the Reformed theological tradition.

http://www.reasons.org/blogs/reflections/top-ten-things-augustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2

 

[By Grace]

Election is by grace through faith.....

My dear Sister,

Since this forum is called "Bible Study" I respectfully request that you do a search for that phrase in the Bible. Since I doubt that you will find it in its entirety, I suggest that you begin your search using the phrase "through faith" if you have access to a computer Bible search program. If that is not possible, I request that you read Romans 4, and pay heed to what Paul says about Abraham. then take your search to Hebrews 11, the "Hall of Faith".

The prepositional phrase "through faith" requires that one person has intellectual assent to something, and then acts upon that. In the case of Abraham, he had assented to believed the promises of God given to him. There the out-working of that sort of conflation of terms is that it would logically require that a soul can have intellectual assent to something prior to birth

I believe that you may be confusing two terms, and thus equating election with salvation. they are not the same.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.​

If it is the case that you conflate the two terms by inserting the term "saved" in place of "predestinated" in verse 5, and you will see how the entire meaning of the context is altered.

Paul, is explaining to the Jews about who the chosen people of God are. Not all those of Israel are Israel.
He says they are not/will not be God's people, because they were born a Jew, or because they do the works of the Law.
Salvation is by the promise both to Abraham and Sarah, and to Rebecca.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Since I do not see the mentioning of Abraham, Sara and Rebecca in the verses above, I am unable to make a connection. Nevertheless, you should see that salvation, as opposed to election is by grace.

 

[Chopper]

Before I go further in this, I want to state that this issue is not a personal issue, and if you believe that my comments were an attack on you please know that that was never my intention, and I regret that my words may have led you to that belief

The second thing you should know about me is that I hold to Reformed Theology as an accurate representation of Biblical Systematic Theology, but I do not emphasize that process, for that is often a pit of quicksand where many have created a tempest where it need not be; rather I prefer to focus on the results of election. That is why I made the point that God calls Jews, and believing Christians "My people" 211 times in the Bible. By emphasizing that, it is impossible to skirt the doctrine of election. Here is a sample of that post:

+-
Exod 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel
Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. ​

What I was getting to in the Mormon reference was the positions that there was originally a single election, to salvation, or a double predestination, and a second election to hell. Here the positions are defined:

INFRALAPSARIAN Christian theology Calvinist a person who believes that foreknowledge of the Fall preceded God's decree of who was predestined to salvation and who was not.

SUPRALAPSARIAN Christian theology a person who believes that God decreed the election or non-election of individuals to salvation even before the Fall.
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003​

IMHO, Romans 9:11 is a strong support for the infralapsarian position:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)​

It seems to me that to uphold the supralapsarian position it requires that God would have pre-born souls somewhere in the cosmos, and then goes "Eeny meeny miny moe..." Since it is the Mormon position that we once were all souls waiting to inhabit a body and that the supralapsarian position seems to echo that position, I believe that identifying the similarities in theology is essential to understanding the outcomes of having this belief or that belief. By no stretch of the imagination was I calling you a Mormon.

​

I really get annoyed at that phrase "opinions of men" because on other sites it is often hurled at me if I do not agree with a cult member's theology, and reject sister/brother such-and-such as a prophet of God. I recognize that is MY issue, and in no manner am I calling you a cultist.

So you are on one side of the "time of Election" and I am on the other. Do you know what makes us? BROTHERS. Only those who know that their salvation is securely resting in the finished work of Christ would dare to take a stand this way or that way on such an "in house argument". The main thing is that we are saved, and we both know it.

Thank you By Grace. In no way did I think you thought I was Mormon or a cultist. I know you better than that my Brother. I understand the point of your last post. When I say that I teach a "pure" Tulip, I try not to go into an arena that I am not privy to. The area I'm speaking about is having counsel with the Almighty about what He thought, intended, and brought about in the time period before the foundations of this planet.

It is my opinion that when men make statements:
INFRALAPSARIAN Christian theology Calvinist a person who believes that foreknowledge of the Fall preceded God's decree of who was predestined to salvation and who was not.

SUPRALAPSARIAN Christian theology a person who believes that God decreed the election or non-election of individuals to salvation even before the Fall.

They don't have any accurate Scripture to base their assumptions on. That is when I call their thesis "Man's opinion". Even though I would adhere to the supralapsarian theory, it is still a theory of man and not necessarily Scriptural. Although We could probably find reference to it but I can think of no Scripture to support infralapsarian thinking.

Again, no man was counsel to God Almighty when He made decisions prior to Genesis 1:1.

Bottom line? Indeed you and I are Brothers by the shed Blood of our Savior Christ Jesus. Whether you and I are of the Elected before the foundations of the earth or we came to Jesus thru the General Call of the Gospel, it behooves us to Keep the Faith until the end.

 

[AndyBern]

I see both predestination and free-will spoken of in the Bible. I don't comprehend it, but I do have some ideas.

I don't believe in limited atonement. 2 Peter 2:1 says Jesus bought those false prophets who deny Him - so Jesus died for the lost as well. This, in addition to verses like Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30-31 and others mentioned about salvation being offered to the world..

I don't believe in double-predestination. God does not prevent anyone from repenting and believing against their will. God hardened Pharaoh's heart - but Pharaoh hardened it first. God just 'helped' him in the direction he wanted to go.

 

[By Grace]

We can thank Augustine for the distortion of predestination, although at the beginning his view of election according to foreknowledge was consistent with Scripture:

http://www.reasons.org/blogs/reflections/top-ten-things-augustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2

Thank you for referring to Augustine!

However, I do believe that you may be misunderstanding him. Below is a list of 18 of his 104 known works, and I want to focus on some of these (in chronological order):

Against the Academics
Against Adimantus
Against the Basic Letter of the Manichees
Against Faustus the Manichee
Against Felix the Manichee
Against Secundinus the Manichee
Against the Letter of Parmenian
Against Cresconius the Grammarian
Against the Priscillianist and the Origenists
Against an Arian Sermon
Against Adversaries of the Law and the Prophets
Against Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop
Against Two Letters of the Pelagians
Against Lying
Against Julian
Against Maximinus
On the Predestination of the Saints
On the Gift of Perseverance
​

.What I want you (and other readers) to notice is that Augustine was fighting many heresies, Pelagianism one of them. But you need to realize that your source is giving his own paraphrase of what he believes that another person wrote, and since the writer you cite did not cite any quotes directly from Augustine, we are looking at an opinion of another editor's opinion. Unfortunately, nothing was directly quoted from Augustine. The source the web writer used was Allan D. Fitzgerald, ed., Augustine through the Ages (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999), s.v. “Predestination.”

In no way am I faulting you.

But I do believe it is a fair assessment to say that your understanding of Augustine would be rather incomplete if you solely relied on this web site for your opinion. IMO I believe that Augustine is more protestant than he is Roman Catholic. Yet if we in the 21st century are to understand a person writing in the 5th century we have to understand that while his works are incisive, they are far from being representative of the things we understand today. therefore wh have to look at his words as early seeds in the developmental understanding of systematic theology, and as such we will sometimes encounter "warts". Therefore we take the good stuff he wrote about, and discard the "bad stuff: he wrote about.

I hope that this helps you, so we can get back to the Bible study.

 

[By Grace]

I see both predestination and free-will spoken of in the Bible. I don't comprehend it, but I do have some ideas.

I don't believe in limited atonement. 2 Peter 2:1 says Jesus bought those false prophets who deny Him - so Jesus died for the lost as well. This, in addition to verses like Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30-31 and others mentioned about salvation being offered to the world..

I don't believe in double-predestination. God does not prevent anyone from repenting and believing against their will. God hardened Pharaoh's heart - but Pharaoh hardened it first. God just 'helped' him in the direction he wanted to go.

EXACTLY!

Since they are both found in the Bible,and the Bible is ultimately written by God, they are friends, and not enemies. We humans see things darkly sometimes, and when we insist on an either/or position where God (IMHO) has said "both/and" we get into trouble, and that is one of the reasons I am highly reluctant to discuss the issue,

For some reason, I decided to make an exception here.

 

[Chopper]

Before I go further in this, I want to state that this issue is not a personal issue, and if you believe that my comments were an attack on you please know that that was never my intention, and I regret that my words may have led you to that belief

The second thing you should know about me is that I hold to Reformed Theology as an accurate representation of Biblical Systematic Theology, but I do not emphasize that process, for that is often a pit of quicksand where many have created a tempest where it need not be; rather I prefer to focus on the results of election. That is why I made the point that God calls Jews, and believing Christians "My people" 211 times in the Bible. By emphasizing that, it is impossible to skirt the doctrine of election. Here is a sample of that post:

Exod 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel
Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. ​

What I was getting to in the Mormon reference was the positions that there was originally a single election, to salvation, or a double predestination, and a second election to hell. Here the positions are defined:

INFRALAPSARIAN Christian theology Calvinist a person who believes that foreknowledge of the Fall preceded God's decree of who was predestined to salvation and who was not.

SUPRALAPSARIAN Christian theology a person who believes that God decreed the election or non-election of individuals to salvation even before the Fall.
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003​

IMHO, Romans 9:11 is a strong support for the infralapsarian position:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)​

It seems to me that to uphold the supralapsarian position it requires that God would have pre-born souls somewhere in the cosmos, and then goes "Eeny meeny miny moe..." Since it is the Mormon position that we once were all souls waiting to inhabit a body and that the supralapsarian position seems to echo that position, I believe that identifying the similarities in theology is essential to understanding the outcomes of having this belief or that belief. By no stretch of the imagination was I calling you a Mormon.

​

I really get annoyed at that phrase "opinions of men" because on other sites it is often hurled at me if I do not agree with a cult member's theology, and reject sister/brother such-and-such as a prophet of God. I recognize that is MY issue, and in no manner am I calling you a cultist.

So you are on one side of the "time of Election" and I am on the other. Do you know what makes us? BROTHERS. Only those who know that their salvation is securely resting in the finished work of Christ would dare to take a stand this way or that way on such an "in house argument". The main thing is that we are saved, and we both know it.

One other note on your Scriptures dealing with "My people", IMO God was speaking concerning Israel as a whole which was before they really became rebellious, stiff-necked, and refusing to walk in God's Commands, Statues, and Rules. Even though the Nation of Israel will always be God's special people, you and I both know that the ones who God calls His people are those who love Him with all their heart and follow His Commands....Again, we see a "Remnant".

 

[Chopper]

I think I'd like to add this little observation of mine based on my studies of men who oppose our great Fathers of the reformation period. These men were faced with some really bad theology from men who perverted true Grace of God, and the true method of Salvation by the grace of God thru faith alone. More could be said about these false teachings.

My hat is off to those of you who are attempting to point out the errors of those tumultuous times while keeping Salvation in Christ alone thru faith. My thanks to you all for your labor in the Lord.

There have been men thru all the Centuries who are filled with pride who want to elevate themselves above the great Fathers of the Reformation. They, in their pride, have searched the writings of said Fathers just so that they can criticize these writings with the plan to show others how much more intelligent they are than Calvin and Augustine. IMO.

If we can keep our thinking on this subject as simple and pure as possible, with the reminder that God's thoughts and ways are unsearchable, and not our thoughts and ways, then we will be the better people because of it....I love each of you who have posted and respect your position in Christ Jesus. Brothers and Sisters are we, praise YHVH and His unspeakable gift of Salvation thru His only begotten Son Yashua Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

Since I do not see the mentioning of Abraham, Sara and Rebecca in the verses above, I am unable to make a connection.

I quoted Romans 9:11 from your post. My comments were in relationship to Romans 9. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Election = chosen
Romans 9 explains who the chosen are. They are the ones who believe, as Abraham, Sarah and Rebecca did, in God's promise.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ishmael represents the children to the flesh. He was not a child of the promise, that God gave to Abe and Sarah but was the product of Abe and Sarah's fleshy will.
Issac represents the children of the promise, God's fulfillment of His promise to Abe and Sarah. Sarah shall have a son.
What of Rebecca's two sons?
Esau represents the one who works for his father's favor, Issac loved Esau because Esau hunted and brought him food.
Jacob represents the promise. God made a promise to Rebecca, the elder shall serve the younger.
They represent the covenants, the covenants of works and the covenants of promise/by grace through faith.
Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Ishmael), nor of him that runneth (Esau), but of God that sheweth mercy.
Who does God show His mercy to? Not those of the flesh because they are of the flesh, not those of works because they work, but to those who Believe the promise as Abraham did. The Christ, the Messiah is the Chosen/Elect One, the One Seed of Abraham. He is the fulfillment of the promise, basically He is the promise.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen/elected.
Is there a condition to being chosen? Yes, as we can see above, one must believe in the promise, the Christ, the Messiah.

Israel thought that because God called them as nation, that they were all His chosen people. But Paul says no, not all those of Israel are Israel. There was/is a condition. They must believe as Abraham believed.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Keep in mind Paul is addressing the Jews who thought they were God's people simply by birth and because they had received the oracles of God. Paul, says "For who hath resisted His will?" Not the ones of the flesh and not the ones of works of the Law.
God determined, predestined, from the foundations of the world, who His people will be. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are representative examples of who His people are/will be. What makes them different? They believe the promise of the Messiah, the Christ, and that He is the only Redeemer and Lord.

Does God at times, use an individual person to bring about His plan? Yes, but that doesn't mean that each individual person is predestined to be saved or not saved. Certainly God knows who His children are, even before they are born, but that doesn't mean He caused it to happen before they were born. Certainly He provides the drawing of the Holy Spirit, He provides the Gospel of Christ, and He provides the faith necessary to believe the message.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But God permits man to choose to obey the message or not to obey the message. Why do I use the word obey? Because man must willfully choose to accept or not to accept the message. Man must reject it, he must harden himself against it. The first step of obedience to God is not baptism. God says believe the message, if one doesn't they are in disobedience.
If man did not have to do something, then Paul would not have said, "Be ye reconciled to God."

But when man reconciles himself to God, does he deserve any credit for it? Absolutely not. God provided everything that enables man to believe and obey.

 

[Malachi]

Does God at times, use an individual person to bring about His plan? Yes, but that doesn't mean that each individual person is predestined to be saved or not saved.

This is something that is not generally grasped by Christians. There is no question that there is election or selection for specific purposes at specific times. Abraham was elected to receive the Abrahamic Covenant, which has eternal ramifications. Moses was elected to lead Israel and teach them the Law, even though he murdered a man. Samson (with all his failings) was elected to be a judge in Israel. Judas Iscariot, with his evil heart, was elected to be among the twelve apostles so that he would accomplish the betrayal of Christ.

But if God elected some sinners for Heaven, then it would be inevitable that He elected others for Hell. And that is patent nonsense, and no Scripture can support that. Instead, the Bible reveals from cover to cover that ALL MAY BE SAVED if all will believe and all will repent. Hence God now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

 

[Chopper]

I quoted Romans 9:11 from your post. My comments were in relationship to Romans 9. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Election = chosen
Romans 9 explains who the chosen are. They are the ones who believe, as Abraham, Sarah and Rebecca did, in God's promise.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ishmael represents the children to the flesh. He was not a child of the promise, that God gave to Abe and Sarah but was the product of Abe and Sarah's fleshy will.
Issac represents the children of the promise, God's fulfillment of His promise to Abe and Sarah. Sarah shall have a son.
What of Rebecca's two sons?
Esau represents the one who works for his father's favor, Issac loved Esau because Esau hunted and brought him food.
Jacob represents the promise. God made a promise to Rebecca, the elder shall serve the younger.
They represent the covenants, the covenants of works and the covenants of promise/by grace through faith.
Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Ishmael), nor of him that runneth (Esau), but of God that sheweth mercy.
Who does God show His mercy to? Not those of the flesh because they are of the flesh, not those of works because they work, but to those who Believe the promise as Abraham did. The Christ, the Messiah is the Chosen/Elect One, the One Seed of Abraham. He is the fulfillment of the promise, basically He is the promise.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen/elected.
Is there a condition to being chosen? Yes, as we can see above, one must believe in the promise, the Christ, the Messiah.

Israel thought that because God called them as nation, that they were all His chosen people. But Paul says no, not all those of Israel are Israel. There was/is a condition. They must believe as Abraham believed.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Keep in mind Paul is addressing the Jews who thought they were God's people simply by birth and because they had received the oracles of God. Paul, says "For who hath resisted His will?" Not the ones of the flesh and not the ones of works of the Law.
God determined, predestined, from the foundations of the world, who His people will be. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are representative examples of who His people are/will be. What makes them different? They believe the promise of the Messiah, the Christ, and that He is the only Redeemer and Lord.

Does God at times, use an individual person to bring about His plan? Yes, but that doesn't mean that each individual person is predestined to be saved or not saved. Certainly God knows who His children are, even before they are born, but that doesn't mean He caused it to happen before they were born. Certainly He provides the drawing of the Holy Spirit, He provides the Gospel of Christ, and He provides the faith necessary to believe the message.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But God permits man to choose to obey the message or not to obey the message. Why do I use the word obey? Because man must willfully choose to accept or not to accept the message. Man must reject it, he must harden himself against it. The first step of obedience to God is not baptism. God says believe the message, if one doesn't they are in disobedience.
If man did not have to do something, then Paul would not have said, "Be ye reconciled to God."

But when man reconciles himself to God, does he deserve any credit for it? Absolutely not. God provided everything that enables man to believe and obey.

Hi Deb. You have presented a very good and informative post, I like it. What I personally see is God pre-selecting believers as well as a call to Salvation to all people who were not pre-selected.

My previous Pastor taught that those of whom God predestined to be saved were the only one to be saved, no one else. I asked him, "so in essence, those who were not predestined to be saved are predestined to be lost, right?" He said, "That's how it works."

There is absolutely no way that I can believe that! NO WAY! You and I believe that every human being in the world has an opportunity to accept God's Grace to be saved or to reject it. God is not willing that any perish.

 

[Chopper]

I think I'd like to add this little observation of mine based on my studies of men who oppose our great Fathers of the reformation period. These men were faced with some really bad theology from men who perverted true Grace of God, and the true method of Salvation by the grace of God thru faith alone. More could be said about these false teachings.

My hat is off to those of you who are attempting to point out the errors of those tumultuous times while keeping Salvation in Christ alone thru faith. My thanks to you all for your labor in the Lord.

There have been men thru all the Centuries who are filled with pride who want to elevate themselves above the great Fathers of the Reformation. They, in their pride, have searched the writings of said Fathers just so that they can criticize these writings with the plan to show others how much more intelligent they are than Calvin and Augustine. IMO.

If we can keep our thinking on this subject as simple and pure as possible, with the reminder that God's thoughts and ways are unsearchable, and not our thoughts and ways, then we will be the better people because of it....I love each of you who have posted and respect your position in Christ Jesus. Brothers and Sisters are we, praise YHVH and His unspeakable gift of Salvation thru His only begotten Son Yashua Jesus.

Thank you Bill Taylor, I treasure your approval because of your past and present ability to teach Truth. I recognize that that Truth comes from Jesus Who is your Master Owner and that you follow Him HARD! May God lessen your pain and physical trials so that the Power of your Master Jesus will strengthen your soul, body and Spirit for His Glory.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Deb. You have presented a very good and informative post, I like it. What I personally see is God pre-selecting believers as well as a call to Salvation to all people who were not pre-selected.

My previous Pastor taught that those of whom God predestined to be saved were the only one to be saved, no one else. I asked him, "so in essence, those who were not predestined to be saved are predestined to be lost, right?" He said, "That's how it works."

There is absolutely no way that I can believe that! NO WAY! You and I believe that every human being in the world has an opportunity to accept God's Grace to be saved or to reject it. God is not willing that any perish.

Good morning Chopper,
And you know that you and I disagree to some extent and you know that I am a loud mouthed former Hog Nut that never knew when to shut his mouth and ended up on stage. Still, I would not argue with anyone holding your position because it really does not fall into conflict with my belief. Both Five Point Hyper Calvinists and the Armenians disagree with me but what can I say, they both toss part of the Word into the trash and I can not do that.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thank you Bill Taylor, I treasure your approval because of your past and present ability to teach Truth. I recognize that that Truth comes from Jesus Who is your Master Owner and that you follow Him HARD! May God lessen your pain and physical trials so that the Power of your Master Jesus will strengthen your soul, body and Spirit for His Glory.

Thank you sir,
The pain is just building character.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you sir,
The pain is just building character.

Thank you for that reminder warrior friend. I just took my morphine because by spine kept hammering my brain, or what's left of it. Even though I chuckled at your remark "building character" but then I realized, oh man, you are right!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thank you for that reminder warrior friend. I just took my morphine because by spine kept hammering my brain, or what's left of it. Even though I chuckled at your remark "building character" but then I realized, oh man, you are right!

I have, so, turned my own judgement inward. What so many forget is that God is faithful to complete what He has begun. Like yourself, the pain is intense and as much as I would love to be back in the wind, there is, still, that reason I have not picked up a new Fat Boy to customize.

Any way, I, bald on top, I grew my hair back down to my butt and my beard down to my belt buckle, that fantastic looking Motorcycle Momma that allowed me to tag her would kill me and tell the Church I had Passed of Natural cause... and that would be natural, would it not?

 

[JLB]

God determined, predestined, from the foundations of the world, who His people will be.

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...
Ephesians 1:1-5


He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world...

How does one come to be "in Him", unless they choose to obey the Gospel?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I have, so, turned my own judgement inward. What so many forget is that God is faithful to complete what He has begun. Like yourself, the pain is intense and as much as I would love to be back in the wind, there is, still, that reason I have not picked up a new Fat Boy to customize.

Any way, I, bald on top, I grew my hair back down to my butt and my beard down to my belt buckle, that fantastic looking Motorcycle Momma that allowed me to tag her would kill me and tell the Church I had Passed of Natural cause... and that would be natural, would it not?

Ha, Ha, you are right Biker Dude. My old bagger had to say good by to this old cripple when my operations got the best of me. I have thought of a Hog Trike but somehow I can't picture me on more than two wheels.