Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[for_his_glory]

Please do not take this as a criticism or me disagreeing with you. I sincerely want to know the answer to my question. Since you said the Holy Spirit gave you the title, in what way does a pretrib belief damage our souls? If you could please condense it to a few sentences, a summary. If you prefer I won't respond back to the answer. But I would really like to know.

Let me put it this way. If I would have continued to believe we are raptured out of here before God's great wrath (tribulation of those days) and then all of a sudden the trumpets begin to blow it might cause me to think the son of perdition is truly Christ come as he shows great signs and wonders promising peace and safety to those who take its mark.

You can respond as I would like to hear what you have to say.

Let me ask you a question. If Christ returns and we are Raptured/caught up to Christ before the tribulation of God's great wrath, then what is the purpose of the 3 1/2 years of the reign of the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth who will deceive even the very elect of God if possible to bow down and take its mark or die a martyr's death?

 

[for_his_glory]

The prince who is to come will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week.


Obviously this will be a world ruler who has great influence over Jews and Muslims.

He will sit as God in the temple of God showing himself as God, doing great signs and lying wonders.



JLB

I agree with this, but the Dome of the Rock is even now being refurbished for the lawless one who claims he is the Father as the furnishings including his literal seat he sits on right now will also be moved from where it sits right now and placed in his temple as he shares it with the Muslims.

Of course that is all I can say because anything else would come against the ToS. What I can say is it is a 1534 Luciferian system of political, military, economic, education and false religious power. It is the last Empire of the seven remaining nations that still exist today that Daniel wrote about in Daniel chapter 7.

 

[for_his_glory]

My apologies for referring to you as he. Don't know why I generally revert to the masculine term when I don't know the gender, especially since I am a woman myself! I agree much that is taught from the pulpit is false with no Biblical back up at all and I feel it is important that we pray for discernment. Of course discernment is not a feeling but comes from studying God's written word, from knowledge of that word. It is the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding of that word.

Discernment, or maybe I should say Spiritual discernment comes by knowledge given by the Holy Spirit who has taught us how to discern what spirit is teaching us, 1 John 4:1-6. It is up to each one of us to study the full context of scripture that leads us through the OT and NT. This also includes history and culture of Biblical times that also are a shadow of today and the latter days that points us all to Christ and what He has already taught.

I use to have a friend that did not like studying and only opened her Bible during service reading and making notes during the service. Now instead of her studying for herself at home she would ask me what those scriptures meant. This happens with so many people as they are to lazy to study for themselves and end up believing everything they are told.

There is not a day that goes by that I never hunger for His word and spend many hours studying it. Do I understand all things, no, but that is why we have the Holy Spirit teach us those things we do not understand. When I teach I might make a mistake and the Holy Spirit will always send me someone to correct me that has more Spiritual knowledge than I do and I will always own my mistakes as we are all ever learning.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well I was asking for_his_glory since it is her thread. But "it introduces deception into a person's soul" isn't an answer. WHAT IS THE DECEPTION?

The deception is preaching a false doctrine derived by man's imaginations as many want a feel good sociable message, but leaves the soul empty of truth that can bring damnation on those who lack knowledge, Hosea 4:6, 7.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize organized religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I never could figure out how pre-tribbers get around "and the dead in Christ will rise first" nor that they will rise on The Last Day. It's simple. Why write 2 inch thick books trying to get around it?

 

[JLB]

I never could figure out how pre-tribbers get around "and the dead in Christ will rise first" nor that they will rise on The Last Day. It's simple. Why write 2 inch thick books trying to get around it?

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Well I was asking for_his_glory since it is her thread. But "it introduces deception into a person's soul" isn't an answer. WHAT IS THE DECEPTION?

Strongs G 4106 - plane’

The KJV translates Strong's G4106 in the following manner: error (7x), to deceive (1x), deceit (1x), delusion (1x).

1. a wandering, a straying about
   1. one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither
2. metaph.
   1. mental straying
      1. error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religion
   2. error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting
   3. error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraud

Error; A staying or wandering from the truth; from the right way


Webster’s -

Definition of deception

1a: the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid : the act of deceiving-resorting to falsehood and deception used to leak the classified information
b: the fact or condition of being deceived the deception of his audience





JLB

 

[JLB]

Well I was asking for_his_glory since it is her thread. But "it introduces deception into a person's soul" isn't an answer. WHAT IS THE DECEPTION?

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:15-18







JLB

 

[Boaz]

Let me put it this way. If I would have continued to believe we are raptured out of here before God's great wrath (tribulation of those days) and then all of a sudden the trumpets begin to blow it might cause me to think the son of perdition is truly Christ come as he shows great signs and wonders promising peace and safety to those who take its mark.

You can respond as I would like to hear what you have to say.

Let me ask you a question. If Christ returns and we are Raptured/caught up to Christ before the tribulation of God's great wrath, then what is the purpose of the 3 1/2 years of the reign of the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth who will deceive even the very elect of God if possible to bow down and take its mark or die a martyr's death?

Thank you for answering my question! My particular question was one only you were qualified to answer. Some, after they gave me a non answer then thought I was looking for the definition of deception. Your argument is very valid though I know you don't need me to validate it. Who am I anyway? Just saying to me it was logical and certainly has merit. And best of all, it was a REAL answer.
So that you know a bit about me and where I am coming from let me give a brief "spiritual" history. I was saved at age 35 . I am now 73, quite old, right, though I don't feel old except for this broken wrist that is taking forever to normal again! So you know I have been a Christian a long time. I had the Gospel preached to me by my brother for seven long years. He brought me book after book and I read them to keep him off many back but in one ear and out the other. It was The Late Great Planet Earth that turned things around for me. It is a very old book, was when I read it. In that book old Testament prophecies that have come to pass were outlined and the historical accuracy proven. Then the author began presenting the ones that have not come to pass, many from Daniel and Revelation. My logical brain told me if some have, they probably all will. I did have an experience that night as I was sleeping which I won't elaborate on as too much is based on experience for Christains (whole false doctrines sometimes) . And sometimes New Christians think an experience is necessary.
I will only say I woke up the next morning KNOWING every word in the Bible is true. Then a began at Genesis 1:1 and Matthew 1:1 to find out what those words are. I have read through the Bible this way several times and am in the process again. I don't just read, I study, sometimes more deeply than others.
I began as a free will, Charismatic, pretribber. As you can tell from my user name I am now Reformed but this is not a discussion about those differences. I am only making the point that from my point of view, I come by my beliefs through due diligence.
I had the pretrib view because that was all I heard. I can certainly see from the Bible that midtrib is a viable interpretation Post trib I reject but only because the Bible says His people will not experience His wrath. But honestly I do not know for sure and still believe what a person believes on this topic is not determinate. I have never quite been able to understand what Reformationists in general believe on eschatology, though some things I say "don't think so".
Your argument that some might be deceived when the antichristperforms his miracles makes absolute sense. In my OPINION it is the IF POSSIBLE that makes me not afraid for myself or any other believer. That is settled in my mind by John 6: 39,40 and other scriptures but I will address that one. And no matter how a person interprets the "given", even if they are given in the sense of God's foreknowledge, His knowing from all time who will accept Jesus (because He is psychic. Forgive the sarcasm please. I have a sarcastic sense of humor and that was humor, one of my thorns in my side). However we are given it follows that we cannot be lost if we belong to Jesus, therefore the IF it were possible means if it were but it isn't.
To me the second 31/2 years are a judgement of the earth and its inhabitants before the judgement of the dead, and it is also a winnowing, chaff from the wheat. Not THE winnowing but A winnowing. I would back that up with scripture, and will, but it will take a search, but right now it will make me late for an appointment! Thanks again for answering me.

 

[for_his_glory]

I never could figure out how pre-tribbers get around "and the dead in Christ will rise first" nor that they will rise on The Last Day. It's simple. Why write 2 inch thick books trying to get around it?

Because two inch jump on the bandwagon books line their pockets that makes them materially wealthy. I've personally met a couple of these Pastors and they would not even give me the time of day to even say hello to me. One of them has body guards as he fears for his own life.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for answering my question! My particular question was one only you were qualified to answer. Some, after they gave me a non answer then thought I was looking for the definition of deception. Your argument is very valid though I know you don't need me to validate it. Who am I anyway? Just saying to me it was logical and certainly has merit. And best of all, it was a REAL answer.
So that you know a bit about me and where I am coming from let me give a brief "spiritual" history. I was saved at age 35 . I am now 73, quite old, right, though I don't feel old except for this broken wrist that is taking forever to normal again! So you know I have been a Christian a long time. I had the Gospel preached to me by my brother for seven long years. He brought me book after book and I read them to keep him off many back but in one ear and out the other. It was The Late Great Planet Earth that turned things around for me. It is a very old book, was when I read it. In that book old Testament prophecies that have come to pass were outlined and the historical accuracy proven. Then the author began presenting the ones that have not come to pass, many from Daniel and Revelation. My logical brain told me if some have, they probably all will. I did have an experience that night as I was sleeping which I won't elaborate on as too much is based on experience for Christains (whole false doctrines sometimes) . And sometimes New Christians think an experience is necessary.
I will only say I woke up the next morning KNOWING every word in the Bible is true. Then a began at Genesis 1:1 and Matthew 1:1 to find out what those words are. I have read through the Bible this way several times and am in the process again. I don't just read, I study, sometimes more deeply than others.
I began as a free will, Charismatic, pretribber. As you can tell from my user name I am now Reformed but this is not a discussion about those differences. I am only making the point that from my point of view, I come by my beliefs through due diligence.
I had the pretrib view because that was all I heard. I can certainly see from the Bible that midtrib is a viable interpretation Post trib I reject but only because the Bible says His people will not experience His wrath. But honestly I do not know for sure and still believe what a person believes on this topic is not determinate. I have never quite been able to understand what Reformationists in general believe on eschatology, though some things I say "don't think so".
Your argument that some might be deceived when the antichristperforms his miracles makes absolute sense. In my OPINION it is the IF POSSIBLE that makes me not afraid for myself or any other believer. That is settled in my mind by John 6: 39,40 and other scriptures but I will address that one. And no matter how a person interprets the "given", even if they are given in the sense of God's foreknowledge, His knowing from all time who will accept Jesus (because He is psychic. Forgive the sarcasm please. I have a sarcastic sense of humor and that was humor, one of my thorns in my side). However we are given it follows that we cannot be lost if we belong to Jesus, therefore the IF it were possible means if it were but it isn't.
To me the second 31/2 years are a judgement of the earth and its inhabitants before the judgement of the dead, and it is also a winnowing, chaff from the wheat. Not THE winnowing but A winnowing. I would back that up with scripture, and will, but it will take a search, but right now it will make me late for an appointment! Thanks again for answering me.

Thank you for sharing all of this as it does help to get to know others.

I first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior back in 1972 when I was 17. It actually took me till 1997 in what I like to call my road to Damascus experiemce to really start Spiritually knowing Jesus. It's a long story which is my testimony, but the point being is I heard the voice of Jesus speaking to me. Whether it was actually Jesus or He sending an angel to speak to me all I know is that I was engulfed in the most brillant warm and secure light when He spoke. Will never forget it as that was my first experience with many more to come.

I remember reading The Late Great Planet Earth way back in the mid 70"s when I was in my early 20's. I too began as a freewill Charismatic pretribber, but certain scriptures they use just didn't set well with me and it was in 1997 that I too became a digger in the word, but learned to pray first and asking the Holy Spirit teach me. It's hard sometimes to clear your heard of all that you have been taught and swipe the slate clean again, but is so worth it.

I am post trib in which I was pretrib many years ago. The Bible does say we will not experience God's wrath being poured out on us, but not that we will not see it happening. We are not grieve the Holy Spirit whereby ( we who are Christ own) are sealed unto the day of redemption as God's wrath will not be poured out on us as we like the Israelites during passover are protected by the blood of Jesus, Ephesians 4:30.

Even when I believed in a pretrib Rapture of the Church I still wasn't able to understand their supporting scriptures. I asked myself that if we are to be taken out of here before the tribulation what is the purpose of God's seven trumpets of His mighty wrath, the son of perdition, the mark of the beast, Satan being bound for a time and let lose and even the millennium. I would think God would end everything that day when we are caught up to Jesus as in ending and doing away with all abominations that are His enemies, renewing the heaven and earth in order to usher down the New Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord forever.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seven trumpets, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention seven years of tribulation, but only the seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deuteronomy 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[Boaz]

Thank you for sharing all of this as it does help to get to know others.

I first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior back in 1972 when I was 17. It actually took me till 1997 in what I like to call my road to Damascus experiemce to really start Spiritually knowing Jesus. It's a long story which is my testimony, but the point being is I heard the voice of Jesus speaking to me. Whether it was actually Jesus or He sending an angel to speak to me all I know is that I was engulfed in the most brillant warm and secure light when He spoke. Will never forget it as that was my first experience with many more to come.

I remember reading The Late Great Planet Earth way back in the mid 70"s when I was in my early 20's. I too began as a freewill Charismatic pretribber, but certain scriptures they use just didn't set well with me and it was in 1997 that I too became a digger in the word, but learned to pray first and asking the Holy Spirit teach me. It's hard sometimes to clear your heard of all that you have been taught and swipe the slate clean again, but is so worth it.

I am post trib in which I was pretrib many years ago. The Bible does say we will not experience God's wrath being poured out on us, but not that we will not see it happening. We are not grieve the Holy Spirit whereby ( we who are Christ own) are sealed unto the day of redemption as God's wrath will not be poured out on us as we like the Israelites during passover are protected by the blood of Jesus, Ephesians 4:30.

Even when I believed in a pretrib Rapture of the Church I still wasn't able to understand their supporting scriptures. I asked myself that if we are to be taken out of here before the tribulation what is the purpose of God's seven trumpets of His mighty wrath, the son of perdition, the mark of the beast, Satan being bound for a time and let lose and even the millennium. I would think God would end everything that day when we are caught up to Jesus as in ending and doing away with all abominations that are His enemies, renewing the heaven and earth in order to usher down the New Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord forever.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seven trumpets, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention seven years of tribulation, but only the seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deuteronomy 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

I don't have any disagreement with anything you have said or the references given. I am certainly no authority or even expert on interpreting Revelation. I have spent the least amount of study on that book because it is confusing to me. And absolutely a lot of that is because of the indoctrinating I had from the beginning of my journey, and also because as far as I am concerned I would always partly feel I was speculating. Talk about trying to understand the Bible without preconceived or planted interpretation, I was raised as a Christian Scientists (nothing Christian or scientific there). Fortunately I had thrown that out long before my conversion but that religion had a bad habit of changing the meanings of Biblical words so I had to do some reconfiguring as I went along.
I know the Reformationist do not believe the 7 years is literal which I had always believed it was. I can see from my own reading that that is not necessarily true. So my stand on Revelation is its purpose and message of Jesus and the assurance that all those who trust in Christ Will be brought safely to our Heavenly home and earth and it's inhabitants will be restored to our unintended state, that is sinless (how wonderful will that be? No sin, even in our thoughts or hearts!) living in the very presence of God. We may have to go through great trials and tribulations, as we do all our earthly life anyway, and they may be worse n anything so far, but He will carry us and as they say, weeping may endure for the night, but joy cometh in the morning. But that's just me, my approach, and yours is yours, my sister! And all is well.

 

[daninthelionsden]

One of the latest tactics used by the pretrib community is, if you don't believe in the pretrib rapture, then you won't be raptured. How's that for a scare tactic?

 

[for_his_glory]

One of the latest tactics used by the pretrib community is, if you don't believe in the pretrib rapture, then you won't be raptured. How's that for a scare tactic?

That isn't the latest, but has always been said.

Where do they even arrive at Rev 4:1 saying we are Raptured out of here before some seven year tribulation

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

After what? After Jesus sent the angels to the seven churches in Asia.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was not caught up to the third heaven, but only caught up in the Spirit where it says come up here as these visions were given to him while he was in prison on the isle of Patmos.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[daninthelionsden]

That isn't the latest, but has always been said.

Where do they even arrive at Rev 4:1 saying we are Raptured out of here before some seven year tribulation

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

After what? After Jesus sent the angels to the seven churches in Asia.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was not caught up to the third heaven, but only caught up in the Spirit where it says come up here as these visions were given to him while he was in prison on the isle of Patmos.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Yes they are grasping at straws and expanding a literal telling of an event of what happened to him and turning it into something symbolic of an event involving the entire Church. Talk about an over generalization!

 

[jerry63935]

They may be children of God, but are teaching false doctrine that could lead others to receive and follow the false messiah, thinking he is the Christ.



JLB

pleaseeeeeeee i get this kind if answer when i was in carm . what pre tribbers i know teach study the word deception is coming i heard that in order for the secret service to know phony money. they spend time studying the real thing.Christians should study the real thing by listening to the spirit of truth . see the pre trib says they are led by the spirit through study. you say the same thing . see false doctrine is fake not true . which means there is no light in them

 

[jerry63935]

The way we will come into this unity that Christ paid for is by all believing the same doctrine; The doctrine of Christ.

actually that should read prayed in john 17 i just seen it was a typo

 

[jerry63935]

One of the latest tactics used by the pretrib community is, if you don't believe in the pretrib rapture, then you won't be raptured. How's that for a scare tactic?

really i have listened to david jeremiah a few times .i have even read some of his books . he has never said that or wrote that

then you won't be raptured.

 

[daninthelionsden]

really i have listened to david jeremiah a few times .i have even read some of his books . he has never said that or wrote that

I've heard it numerous times from numerous pretribbers, including my own half brother.

 

[jerry63935]

I've heard it numerous times from numerous pretribbers, including my own half brother.

dont know what to tell you .thats why i teach preach be ready