Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[JLB]

In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there.

Amen. Agreed.


However, we see from Daniel, of which Jesus referred us, that sacrifices will resume after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


Jesus refers us to Daniel to gain understanding -


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21


Paul says it this way -


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Again, Paul is referring to Daniel -


“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. Daniel 11:36




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I know the scriptures teach that Jesus comes after the tribulations of God's mighty wrath as that is what I have been teaching here. I also realize the early church fathers did not have the benefit of the full NT canon as that was not finalized until 1546.

FHG,

Please help me to understand where you obtained the information that the full NT canon was not finalised until 1546. Could you please document that for me?

Many thanks,
Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

Please help me to understand where you obtained the information that the full NT canon was not finalised until 1546. Could you please document that for me?

Many thanks,
Oz

Wikipedia - Development of the Christian biblical canon

 

[for_his_glory]

Amen. Agreed.


However, we see from Daniel, of which Jesus referred us, that sacrifices will resume after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


Jesus refers us to Daniel to gain understanding -


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21


Paul says it this way -


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Again, Paul is referring to Daniel -


“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. Daniel 11:36




JLB

Daniel 9:
Vs.26 after 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the Romans under Vespasian their prince that the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest who have favor with that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolations of Abominations where a so called Antichrist (emphasis on the capitol "A") will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the son of perdition, being the false prophet/last antichrist, tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:36-45. Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists, 1John2:18; 11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 11:7. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years beginning with the first six seals being the beginning of sorrows (first woe). The last three and a half years starting with the (second woe) with the sounding of the first trumpet and ending with the seventh trumpet that includes everything else written in Revelations that includes the time of Christ return for His Bride in Rev 19 up to the end when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet and ends with the new Jerusalem being ushered down as then we will be with the Lord forever.

Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the spiritual city right to the cross where the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes back in the air to call his Bride home and for the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all who would not believe.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The last siege and destruction of the 2nd Temple and the wall was in 70AD as a revolt led by Titus as he broke through the walls and destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. The wall and the Temple were never rebuilt, nor will it be in the future. The Temple mount laid waste until the Dome of the Rock was built on it in 691AD by the caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan. The Islamic control over the Dome of the Rock will never surrender the original temple mount back to the Jews.

The last decree to build and restore Jerusalem, including the building of the second Temple that took 49 days/49 prophetic years, came around 538BC with the decree given to Ezra by King Cyrus. Through much oppositions the city, walls and the second Temple were completed on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius II around 417BC as he reigned from 423BC to 404BC, Ezra Chapter 1-6. This was part of the vision given to Daniel as the full prophecy given to him is found in Daniel Chapters 9-12.

 

[Boaz]

im all about correct doctrine, but...honestly, the (respectable, very well educated) theologians cannot seem to agree on this one, so...

cross that bridge when we find it, I suppose.

till then...eyes on Christ.

Pre ttrib, mid trib, post trib. Personally I feel it's the wrong thing to be focused on or concerned about. What God has purposed to happen will happen and His people, Believers, will be ok. He promises to never leave or forsake us. He promises that we will stand because Jesus is able to make us stand. What Jesus tells us is to be ready. The being ready refers to trusting in Jesus ALONE for salvation. It does not refer in any way to obedience or anything else. Only believing in Jesus. (And not just believing in His existence but believing that He is who the Bible says He is, has done and is doing what the Bible says, and trusting in Him ALONE to be saved from God's wrath.) Our focus and attention should be on Him, not trying to figure out His time line. The subject is interesting, no doubt, and there is nothing wrong with wondering and pondering but we shouldn't probably be making a doctrine out of what we have decided to believe about end times, no matter how extensive our study or investigation. The book of Revelation, though it contains end times prophecy, the subject is actually Jesus.

 

[Boaz]

Pre ttrib, mid trib, post trib. Personally I feel it's the wrong thing to be focused on or concerned about. What God has purposed to happen will happen and His people, Believers, will be ok. He promises to never leave or forsake us. He promises that we will stand because Jesus is able to make us stand. What Jesus tells us is to be ready. The being ready refers to trusting in Jesus ALONE for salvation. It does not refer in any way to obedience or anything else. Only believing in Jesus. (And not just believing in His existence but believing that He is who the Bible says He is, has done and is doing what the Bible says, and trusting in Him ALONE to be saved from God's wrath.) Our focus and attention should be on Him, not trying to figure out His time line. The subject is interesting, no doubt, and there is nothing wrong with wondering and pondering but we shouldn't probably be making a doctrine out of what we have decided to believe about end times, no matter how extensive our study or investigation. The book of Revelation, though it contains end times prophecy, the subject is actually Jesus.

I am not suggesting that these discussions shouldn't take place, only that possibly they shouldn't be presented as absolute truth because, let's face it, no matter how extensive our study, how reliable or far reaching our sources, it is still speculation. Well know when it happens and it won't matter who was right and who was wrong. Try reading Revelation without attempting to decipher the meaning of each symbolism and time line and we might discover the true purpose. It is difficult to do because of all that we have already heard preached and also because it is our nature to try and figure these things out. I have not been able to do what I suggested yet, but I did try. Lol

 

[JLB]

Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

As of this point, in the prophetic timeline, we see that Messiah has been cut off, and the city and sanctuary has been destroyed (70 AD), and yet the 70th week has not begun.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:26-27




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not suggesting that these discussions shouldn't take place, only that possibly they shouldn't be presented as absolute truth because, let's face it, no matter how extensive our study, how reliable or far reaching our sources, it is still speculation. Well know when it happens and it won't matter who was right and who was wrong. Try reading Revelation without attempting to decipher the meaning of each symbolism and time line and we might discover the true purpose. It is difficult to do because of all that we have already heard preached and also because it is our nature to try and figure these things out. I have not been able to do what I suggested yet, but I did try. Lol

The Prophets in the OT prophesied of things which will come in the latter days before Christ returns. Jesus outlined those things which must come first before His return in Matthew 24:1-31 as no one knows the day or the hour of His return. He also said to watch and pray so even we do not enter into temptation, Matthew 26:41. In Revelations it was Jesus who gave the angel to show John in visions of those things to come. In Matthew 24:4, 5, 24 Jesus said to take heed that no man deceive you as there will be many false prophets that could deceive even the very elect of God if possible.

Hence the title of this thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

As of this point, in the prophetic timeline, we see that Messiah has been cut off, and the city and sanctuary has been destroyed (70 AD), and yet the 70th week has not begun.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:26-27




JLB

The first half of the 70th week was from the beginning of Christ ministry until He died on the cross and then ascended up to heaven. We are still in the second half of the 70th week as we wait for Christ to return and make an end to all transgressions and to make an end of sin before bringing in everlasting righteousness.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[OzSpen]

Wikipedia - Development of the Christian biblical canon

FHG,

This is what that article states:

In the wake of the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic canon was reaffirmed by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent (1546), which provided "the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon" by the Roman Catholic Church.[2] The canons of the Church of England and English Presbyterians were decided definitively by the Thirty-Nine Articles (1563) and the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), respectively. The Synod of Jerusalem (1672) established additional canons that are widely accepted throughout the Orthodox Church. (Wikipedia source).​

It was the Council of Trent in 1546 that 'reaffirmed' the Roman Catholic canon. That was not the affirmation of the original canon.

The finalisation of the OT canon is more difficult to nail down. Don Stewart of Blue Letter Bible has an excellent article on, How Was the Old Testament Canon of Scripture Put Together?'

For the NT, the 27 books were confirmed as authoritative at the Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397).

There was a Muratorian partial canon of 22 of the 27 books found in 1740 by Italian historian, Muratori. The fragment was in Latin and dated to the 7th or 8th century. It is estimated to have been compiled originally about AD 170-180.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

This is what that article states:

In the wake of the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic canon was reaffirmed by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent (1546), which provided "the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon" by the Roman Catholic Church.[2] The canons of the Church of England and English Presbyterians were decided definitively by the Thirty-Nine Articles (1563) and the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), respectively. The Synod of Jerusalem (1672) established additional canons that are widely accepted throughout the Orthodox Church. (Wikipedia source).​

It was the Council of Trent in 1546 that 'reaffirmed' the Roman Catholic canon. That was not the affirmation of the original canon.

The finalisation of the OT canon is more difficult to nail down. Don Stewart of Blue Letter Bible has an excellent article on, How Was the Old Testament Canon of Scripture Put Together?'

For the NT, the 27 books were confirmed as authoritative at the Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397).

There was a Muratorian partial canon of 22 of the 27 books found in 1740 by Italian historian, Muratori. The fragment was in Latin and dated to the 7th or 8th century. It is estimated to have been compiled originally about AD 170-180.

Oz

Thank you for correcting me. I guess I was thinking of the 1546 canon being put together before the printing of the 1611 KJV, but this is a topic of study in itself.

 

[jerry63935]

Pre ttrib, mid trib, post trib. Personally I feel it's the wrong thing to be focused on or concerned about. What God has purposed to happen will happen and His people, Believers, will be ok. He promises to never leave or forsake us. He promises that we will stand because Jesus is able to make us stand. What Jesus tells us is to be ready. The being ready refers to trusting in Jesus ALONE for salvation. It does not refer in any way to obedience or anything else. Only believing in Jesus. (And not just believing in His existence but believing that He is who the Bible says He is, has done and is doing what the Bible says, and trusting in Him ALONE to be saved from God's wrath.) Our focus and attention should be on Him, not trying to figure out His time line. The subject is interesting, no doubt, and there is nothing wrong with wondering and pondering but we shouldn't probably be making a doctrine out of what we have decided to believe about end times, no matter how extensive our study or investigation. The book of Revelation, though it contains end times prophecy, the subject is actually Jesus.

agreed%100

 

[jerry63935]

The Prophets in the OT prophesied of things which will come in the latter days before Christ returns. Jesus outlined those things which must come first before His return in Matthew 24:1-31 as no one knows the day or the hour of His return. He also said to watch and pray so even we do not enter into temptation, Matthew 26:41. In Revelations it was Jesus who gave the angel to show John in visions of those things to come. In Matthew 24:4, 5, 24 Jesus said to take heed that no man deceive you as there will be many false prophets that could deceive even the very elect of God if possible.

Hence the title of this thread.

he made very good point deception is alive and well today... you have your prophecy belief and others has there's pre trib believers show the Church is no longer mentioned after chaPTER 3 . EVERY one sees it different . there are some who dont believe Christ will ever sit foot on this earth ? granted there are some pretty far out teachings .. but there are some who have sound teaching . the difference is in interpretation

 

[JLB]

What God has purposed to happen will happen and His people, Believers, will be ok.

What God has purposed, He has foretold to us in the scriptures.

Believers will be ok if the continue to believe, steadfast to the end.

If we endure to the end we will be saved.


And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:12-13



JLB

 

[JLB]

The first half of the 70th week was from the beginning of Christ ministry until He died on the cross and then ascended up to heaven.

Again, the scripture is crystal clear.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26


At this point in the prophetic timeline, Messiah has been cut off and the city and sanctuary has been destroyed.

This brings us to the year 70 AD.

As of yet, the 70th week has not begun.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The subject is interesting, no doubt, and there is nothing wrong with wondering and pondering but we shouldn't probably be making a doctrine out of what we have decided to believe about end times,

What Christ and the Apostles taught us about the end time are written in the scriptures for our instruction and benefit.

We don’t need to wonder about what they said but believe what they said and teach our family so we can be prepared.


“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14



But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8


The word “provide” here in this verse means prepare or foresee in advance.

The scriptures are given to us to know in advance what will take place in the last days so we can instruct and prepare ourselves and our family.





JLB

 

[Boaz]

What Christ and the Apostles taught us about the end time are written in the scriptures for our instruction and benefit.

We don’t need to wonder about what they said but believe what they said and teach our family so we can be prepared.


“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14



But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8


The word “provide” here in this verse means prepare or foresee in advance.

The scriptures are given to us to know in advance what will take place in the last days so we can instruct and prepare ourselves and our family.





JLB

I sincerely hope you aren't suggesting that I have departed from the faith because I don't feel a need to decipher the meaning of symbols and time lines in Revelation. I get the picture, a know the end of the story. No matter what the symbols etc represent the bottom line and purpose is repent and believe. Be ready. Belong to Christ.
Though of course your definition of provide is correct you are also attributing something to it that is not intended in the scripture context. It is speaking specifically of a man working in order to provide for the earthly needs of his family I.e. shelter, clothing, food etc.

 

[Boaz]

What God has purposed, He has foretold to us in the scriptures.

Believers will be ok if the continue to believe, steadfast to the end.

If we endure to the end we will be saved.


And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:12-13



JLB

Well I know. When have I said otherwise?
"He (the believer) will stand because Jesus is able to make him stand."

 

[JLB]

Well I know. When have I said otherwise?
"He (the believer) will stand because Jesus is able to make him stand."

Amen by His grace, through faith we all stand.


JLB

 

[Boaz]

Well I know. When have I said otherwise?
"He (the believer) will stand because Jesus is able to make him stand."

My concern with this thread is not the content. On the content I have no comment especially since I didn't read it all. My disagreement is with the title saying a certain thing will damage our very souls. Specifically anyone who believes in pretrib has a damaged soul. In effect the writer is saying that if you don't interpret the book of Revelation the way I do you are in trouble, which is in itself a dangerous thing to say, not to mention extremely presumptuous. He didn't need to say that in order to make his case. We need to be more careful with our words and our judgements.
We are not the subject of Revelation, we are the recipients. It is obvious that Revelation is not chronicle. It speaks of things that had happened before it was written, things that were happening, things that hadn't happened yet but now have and things that haven't happened but will, not necessarily in that order. It is an overview of who Jesus is, what He has done and what He continues to do. We learn that Jesus is all authority and power ( thus He is God, the second person of the Trinity. Not secondary but second in order) that He controls all things and ordained all things, is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. That the world is in terrible shape through our rebellion and it will get worse but His people, those who trust in Him, will be safe. It gives us comfort that no matter what we have to go through in this part of our life, He has us beneath the shadow of His wings, He will bring us safely home. It promises us that He will return at some time unknown to us and restore all things. How we interpret the signs and symbols and timeline in Revelation does not affect our souls. The only thing that damages our souls is not trusting in Jesus for salvation.
The title of this thread could pull a believer towards believing the given interpretation in order to be saved and cause them to miss the whole purpose of Revelation. It won't affect his salvation if he is a true believer, but it could make him afraid. Be careful.