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Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

FHG,

Interesting topic. I am not a pre-tribber but a post-tribber. However, I don't think this eschatology should cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ.

The early church fathers/writers spoke of a pre-tribulation rapture:

There were others like Baptist preacher, John Gill, who preached on a pre-trib rapture 80 years before the time of Margaret Macdonald and J N Darby. I've documented it in the article: The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

By no means are we to cause division and that is certainly not my intent as mine is to teach that of what has already been written in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations that is truth being the doctrines of Christ for what He taught. The word rapture, although not found in scripture, does mean the feeling of intense pleasure and joy. This is exactly what we will feel when being caught up to Christ as it will be a day of great rejoicing.

Now, what causes division among the brethern is in how it is taught to be a pretrib, mid trib or post trib. Just like your article those early church fathers mainly used 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to prove a pretrib, but as we read it there is no mention of a pretrib or a midtrib. Matthew 24:27-31 is also shown to John by Christ who sends this angel to him to reveal all the Revelations and write them to the Church. Rev 19:11-21 is the culmination of all the OT prophecies and the NT scriptures before it that shows Jesus returns on the last day destroying the beast and false prophet and all the rulers of every nation that followed after them. At that time we are caught up to Him when He returns in the air with His army of angels he sends out to gather His own to Him.

Could this teaching of a pretrib affect ones faith if they are mislead into believing a lie that the church is caught up before the seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath known as the tribulations in the end of days? It can be possible to deceive even the very elect of God, Matthew 24:24, 25. Jesus has already told us those things which will come before His return. If all we had to go by was what Jesus spoke in Matthew 24:1-31 this would be enough to know the Church being the body of Christ will endure all these things until Christ returns on the last day.

I just now read chapters 1 and 2 of what the Shepherd of Hermas wrote and the beast he saw was a shadow of the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth that we read about in Rev 13.

What he is saying is that if we prepare ourselves and repent with all our heart and turn to the Lord we will escape God's great tribulation during the seven trumpets as it will pass over us as God has prepared us a place in the wilderness where He will take care of us until Christ returns and we are then caught up to Him, Rev 12:6.

Irenaeus said the same thing that the church (true body of Christ) in the end will suddenly be caught up as he quoted what Jesus already said in His Olivet discourse with the disciples, Matthew 24:21, and what God gave Paul to write in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
 
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this,


This totally aligns with the words of Christ as well as Paul in scripture.

At the end, on the last day, the Church will be first resurrected then afterwards those who are alive and remain will be caught up with them.


This of course is on the last Day, at His coming.


Three distinct things will occur at His coming.

In order:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the Antichrist




JLB
 
Irenaeus wrote of the the Church being 'suddenly caught up from this'. When will that be? 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be'. The great tribulation, i.e. 'tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be'.

This 'is the last contest' for the righteous and when they 'overcome they are crowned with incorruption'.


Yes the last contest for the righteous is to endure the great tribulation.




JLB
 
Yes the last contest for the righteous is to endure the great tribulation.
so the righteous are to be punished in the great tribulation along with those facing the wrath of God aka the enemies of God . so in essence even though your saved. you get to face the wrath of God with the lost...that sure makes a lot of sense ..i have back out of this or else this will turn into something other than a discussion
 
Jerry,

May I suggest that you consider the content of Matt 24 (NIRV) and what it says about tribulation before the saints are removed.

Oz
i have read it to throw a wrench in this b 4 i gracefully no longer post in this section . the temple has been destroyed the only thing left is Christ return for his Church then the wrath of God . which God has not appointed us to. to be fair to those who hold to pre trib. the Church is no longer mentioned after chapter 3 . do i think there will be some still saved after the Church is taken out ? there are places in rev that appears to say that . i really have about as much desire to do prophecy as to when Christ returns . as i do talk about can you no you can not lose salvation
 
so the righteous are to be punished in the great tribulation along with those facing the wrath of God


No sir.

The Church will be caught up together to be with the Lord, then He will pour out His wrath on the wicked, and destroy them.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3

This sudden destruction that comes upon them is the wrath of God. The Day of the Lord.

The great tribulation (persecution) is where the enemy and those who follow him, persecute the saints. This is not the wrath of God.


“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Matthew 24:9-10




JLB
 
THE FINAL END OF TRIBULATION i dont see us being here not appointed to wrath , but either way it will all pan out .

You might not see us being here, but scripture makes it perfectly clear we will be protected as God's wrath passes over us like that of Exodus 12 as we are covered by the blood of Jesus. Plus we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when Christ returns, Ephesians 4:30.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a thief and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
 
You might not see us being here, but scripture makes it perfectly clear we will be protected as God's wrath passes over us like that of Exodus 12 as we are covered by the blood of Jesus. Plus we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when Christ returns, Ephesians 4:30.
has nothing to do with end time prophecy the great white throne judgment is a separate judgment. have a good evening/night which ever it be
 
By no means are we to cause division and that is certainly not my intent as mine is to teach that of what has already been written in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations that is truth being the doctrines of Christ for what He taught. The word rapture, although not found in scripture, does mean the feeling of intense pleasure and joy. This is exactly what we will feel when being caught up to Christ as it will be a day of great rejoicing.

FHG,

You have given the meaning of 'rapture' according to an English dictionary: 'A feeling of intense pleasure or joy' (Lexico/Oxford Dictionary 2019. s.v. rapture).

That is not its meaning in 1 Thess 4:17 where it translates ἁρπαγησόμεθα = harpagesometha = future tense, passive voice, indicative mood from harpazw. It is like the Latin rapio (hence it is known as 'the rapture'), meaning to seize, to carry off.

Harpazw means ‘I snatch or take away … in such a way that no resistance is offered’. Paul was ‘caught up to the third heaven’ (2 Cor 12:2). First Thess 4:17 is associated with this meaning of being snatched away with no way to resist (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon 1957:108).

The church being ‘caught up’ or raptured was taught long before J N Darby (1800-1882). Darby was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren denomination in the UK who promoted his dispensational theories, beginning in the Anglican church but he found no satisfaction there (see Graves 2007).

Oz
 
so the righteous are to be punished in the great tribulation along with those facing the wrath of God aka the enemies of God . so in essence even though your saved. you get to face the wrath of God with the lost...that sure makes a lot of sense ..i have back out of this or else this will turn into something other than a discussion

Was Job being punished when God allowed Satan to bring so much grief and torment upon him or was it to show Satan how great his faith was in God?

This too will be when Satan is cast out of heaven down to earth to torment and try to destroy the Church we read about in Rev 12 as this will be a trying of our faith and trust in Christ for His protection.
 
has nothing to do with end time prophecy the great white throne judgment is a separate judgment. have a good evening/night which ever it be

You have a great night also and it was nice discussing this with you even if we do not see eye to eye on this.
 
FHG,

You have given the meaning of 'rapture' according to an English dictionary: 'A feeling of intense pleasure or joy' (Lexico/Oxford Dictionary 2019. s.v. rapture).

That is not its meaning in 1 Thess 4:17 where it translates ἁρπαγησόμεθα = harpagesometha = future tense, passive voice, indicative mood from harpazw. It is like the Latin rapio (hence it is known as 'the rapture'), meaning to seize, to carry off.

Harpazw means ‘I snatch or take away … in such a way that no resistance is offered’. Paul was ‘caught up to the third heaven’ (2 Cor 12:2). First Thess 4:17 is associated with this meaning of being snatched away with no way to resist (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon 1957:108).

The church being ‘caught up’ or raptured was taught long before J N Darby (1800-1882). Darby was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren denomination in the UK who promoted his dispensational theories, beginning in the Anglican church but he found no satisfaction there (see Graves 2007).

Oz

I can agree with the full meaning you have given for the word rapture, but again, nowhere in scripture does it say anything other than it will be on the last day.

I know you said you were not a pretribber so to those who do believe in pretrib then why does the scriptures say that Christ returns in the air with His army of angels as in the air He then cast the beast and false prophet alive into the lake of fire while His angels are sent out to the four corners of the earth to gather all of us, alive and in the grave to be caught up to meet Him in the air before He plants His feet on the mount of Olives, Matthew 24:28-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; Rev 1:7; Rev 19:11-21.

The early church fathers writings of the first, second and third century are not scripture, but they all seem to use Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to support their theories of there being a pretrib rapture of the church before the tribulation begins. Some go as far as using Rev 4:1, which again has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture of the church.

Irenaeus, Cyprian, Ephraim the Syrian all taught a pretrib rapture before Darby did, but none of their supporting scriptures proved it to be true.
 
I can agree with the full meaning you have given for the word rapture, but again, nowhere in scripture does it say anything other than it will be on the last day.

I know you said you were not a pretribber so to those who do believe in pretrib then why does the scriptures say that Christ returns in the air with His army of angels as in the air He then cast the beast and false prophet alive into the lake of fire while His angels are sent out to the four corners of the earth to gather all of us, alive and in the grave to be caught up to meet Him in the air before He plants His feet on the mount of Olives, Matthew 24:28-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; Rev 1:7; Rev 19:11-21.

The early church fathers writings of the first, second and third century are not scripture, but they all seem to use Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to support their theories of there being a pretrib rapture of the church before the tribulation begins. Some go as far as using Rev 4:1, which again has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture of the church.

Irenaeus, Cyprian, Ephraim the Syrian all taught a pretrib rapture before Darby did, but none of their supporting scriptures proved it to be true.

FHG,

The Scripture teaches that Jesus returns after 'great trouble' (Matt 24:21 ERV) and ...

29 “Right after the trouble of those days, this will happen:​
‘The sun will become dark,
and the moon will not give light.
The stars will fall from the sky,
and everything in the sky will be changed.’​
30 “Then there will be something in the sky that shows the Son of Man is coming. All the people of the world will cry. Everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.​
32 “The fig tree teaches us a lesson: When its branches become green and soft, and new leaves begin to grow, then you know that summer is very near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time is very near, already present. 34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever (Matt 24:29-35 ERV).​

These verses, in my understanding, support believers going through 'great trouble' and Jesus returns 'right after the trouble of those days'.

I hope you understand that the early church fathers didn't have the benefits of a full NT of the canon of Scripture. A partial canon, the Muratorian canon, was available from about AD 150. The full NT canon wasn't compiled until the end of the 4th century. They also had further disadvantages of no chapters and verses. That's why some specific identification of Scripture references have been added after the finding of the writings of the church fathers.

Oz
 
i have read it to throw a wrench in this b 4 i gracefully no longer post in this section . the temple has been destroyed the only thing left is Christ return for his Church


The Temple will be rebuilt, and the false messiah will go there to proclaim himself as God, to deceive all who do not love the truth.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


  • so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.





JLB
 
FHG,

The Scripture teaches that Jesus returns after 'great trouble' (Matt 24:21 ERV) and ...

29 “Right after the trouble of those days, this will happen:​
‘The sun will become dark,​
and the moon will not give light.​
The stars will fall from the sky,​
and everything in the sky will be changed.’​
30 “Then there will be something in the sky that shows the Son of Man is coming. All the people of the world will cry. Everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.​
32 “The fig tree teaches us a lesson: When its branches become green and soft, and new leaves begin to grow, then you know that summer is very near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time is very near, already present. 34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever (Matt 24:29-35 ERV).​

These verses, in my understanding, support believers going through 'great trouble' and Jesus returns 'right after the trouble of those days'.

I hope you understand that the early church fathers didn't have the benefits of a full NT of the canon of Scripture. A partial canon, the Muratorian canon, was available from about AD 150. The full NT canon wasn't compiled until the end of the 4th century. They also had further disadvantages of no chapters and verses. That's why some specific identification of Scripture references have been added after the finding of the writings of the church fathers.

Oz

I know the scriptures teach that Jesus comes after the tribulations of God's mighty wrath as that is what I have been teaching here. I also realize the early church fathers did not have the benefit of the full NT canon as that was not finalized until 1546.

But, It seems like they had the inspired teachings of Matthew and Paul as they referenced Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to back up their theory about a pretrib rapture.
 
The Temple will be rebuilt, and the false messiah will go there to proclaim himself as God, to deceive all who do not love the truth.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


  • so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.





JLB

The cornerstone for the new Temple was brought to Jerusalem on May 21, 2009 and still remains on the street. "Jerusalem Day" in 1967 was to celebrate the liberation of the Temple Mount, but there is a problem there as the Doom of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount. Baruch Ben-Yosel , chairman of the Movement to Restore the Temple, made it clear that the Temple had to be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock sits.

There will never be a third Temple built by hands, Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24. When the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom after Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51, this symbolized that the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood was now made for the atonement of sin and that all, Jew and Gentile, can come before Him as He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.

There is no more veil for the Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for Israel's sin nor is there any more animal sacrifices as we are no longer under the Old Covenant nor the preaching of the law, but are under a new and better covenant of Gods grace through Christ Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. Jesus prophesied of the Temple being desolate and that no one will see Him again until His time comes meaning when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:1, 2; Luke 13:34, 35, John 6:40.

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrifical lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.

In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there. The Temple of God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.
 
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