Pristine

[Douglas Summers]

Hi.

The bible, not me, says without water baptism one is not saved Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Jn 3:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Eph 5:26; Tts 3:5; Col 2:12-14; Rom 6:3-7; 1 Cor 1:12,13 etc, etc. I can only repeat what the bible says.
Can one be saved without the new birth? No. Since the new birth is water baptism then one cannot be born again without being water baptized.

Hi Seabass, Mk. 16: 9-16 is not in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts.. It was added around the second or third centuries. In John 3:5, Here are the Scriptures I believe Christ is referring to when he says being "born of the water," John 4:14; 7: 37-39; Ezek. 36: 25-27; Eph. 5: 26; Ti. 3: 5-6; John 15: 3. I will not go any further for it would not be profitable. I know of a Denomination that believes that you must be water baptized to be saved, but they also believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurred twice. Once at Pentecost and then at Cornelius house. I would have to add at least one more, it happened to me.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[netchaplain]

Hi,

God does the work of removing the body of sin (Col 2:12-14) so that one can then walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4) but God does the work at the point of being water baptized not at the moment of faith only..

I believe "the body of sin" and the "old man" are one in the same (Rom 6:6). The old man (sinful nature) consists of a body with its members (Col 3:5).

The physical body is decaying but is not sinful. It is used in sinfulness, which is attributed to the spirit of a person, not their body, which is holy (1Cor 3:17; 6:19).

 

[smaller]

I believe "the body of sin" and the "old man" are one in the same (Rom 6:6). The old man (sinful nature) consists of a body with its members (Col 3:5).

The physical body is decaying but is not sinful. It is used in sinfulness, which is attributed to the spirit of a person, not their body, which is holy (1Cor 3:17; 6:19).

Agreed. It is not the flesh that is evil, but the adverse or disobedient spirit within the flesh (which is not the person, but of the spirit of disobedience), that is evil and that drives the flesh which the flesh has been made "subject to." Romans 7:21. The flesh itself is a compilation of organic material, made after the Image of God. The "earth" bodies of man have been made subject to many adverse conditions. And was so made by Gods Working Ways, first the natural (earthly) body, and afterwards, the Spiritual Perfect Body. 1 Cor. 15:42-49, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, Romans 9:19-23

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This built in contrariness or conflict brings many difficulties to the subjects of theology.

 

[netchaplain]

Agreed. It is not the flesh that is evil, but the adverse or disobedient spirit within the flesh (which is not the person, but of the spirit of disobedience), that is evil and that drives the flesh which the flesh has been made "subject to." Romans 7:21. .

Hi S - Thanks for your input. I believe the "evil that is present with me" is the Adamic nature (old man) or sinful nature. This is what cannot "be subject to the law of God" (Rom 8:7) and involves being of an unregenerate "carnal mind." Hence, it is not remade but "condemned" (Rom 8:3), and a new nature is implanted and used by the Spirit to cause the believer to live by it instead of the old nature (Gal 5:17).

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Seabass]

Hi Seabass, Mk. 16: 9-16 is not in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts.. It was added around the second or third centuries. In John 3:5, Here are the Scriptures I believe Christ is referring to when he says being "born of the water," John 4:14; 7: 37-39; Ezek. 36: 25-27; Eph. 5: 26; Ti. 3: 5-6; John 15: 3. I will not go any further for it would not be profitable. I know of a Denomination that believes that you must be water baptized to be saved, but they also believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurred twice. Once at Pentecost and then at Cornelius house. I would have to add at least one more, it happened to me.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

Hi,

There is no credible reason to doubt the genuineness of the last 12 verses of Mark for the last 12 verses are found in the majority of the known MSS.

The two MSS you refer to as being the "oldest and most reliable" are the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. These two along with the Alexandrinus make up what some call the "big three" unical MSS.

The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are 4th century MSS. There are MSS from the 2nd century that do contain the last 12 verses. The writings of Irenaeus that, I believe, predates all known MSS and contains a verse from the passage in question in Mk 16.

The Alexandrinus DOES contain the last 12 verses.
The Vaticanus has a blank space after Mk 16:8 as if the scribe knew there was more but for some reason did not include the last 12 verses. The scribe did not do this anywhere else in the NT.
The Sinaiticus does not contain the last 12 verses.

Based on this observation, it is very spurious argument to question the last 12 verses of Mark 16.

An individual named John Burgon spent much time coallating all the differences between these two MSS and concluded: (my emp)

"Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the Critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substitued, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree." From his book, "The Revised Revised" pg 11

""In the Gospels alone Vaticanus has 589 readings quite peculiar to itself, affecting 858 words while Aleph has 1460 such readings, afecting 2640 words" pg 319

Dean Burgon did NOT find these two MSS to be the most reliable at all.

It can be further noted that the MSS Vaticanus does omit the last 12 verses of Mk 16 but it omits other verses too. It also omits the ENTIRE BOOKS of 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Revelation. So why are just the last 12 verses of MK 16 questioned since they are missing from this "oldest and most reliable" manuscript but all the other omissions never seem to be questioned???????

Below is a link I found that list just some of the omitted and corrupted passages from these two MSS:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/vaticanus.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The baptism with the Holy Spirit did occur twice, in Acts 2 with the Apostles (Jews) and Acts 10 with Cornelius (Gentile) thereby fulfilling Joel's prophecy that God's Spirit would be poured out upon "all flesh", [the groups Jew and Gentile making upon all flesh] bringing that fulfilled baptism to an end, ceased.

 

[Seabass]

I believe "the body of sin" and the "old man" are one in the same (Rom 6:6). The old man (sinful nature) consists of a body with its members (Col 3:5).

The physical body is decaying but is not sinful. It is used in sinfulness, which is attributed to the spirit of a person, not their body, which is holy (1Cor 3:17; 6:19).

1) But my point remains is that YOU put off the old man with his deeds. This work is YOUR role in your own salvation.
It's true that God is the One that removes the body of sin but He only does this at the point of baptism. Therefore those that do the work of submitting to baptism are in that since "putting off the old man", "purified your souls" 1 Pet 1:22; "saving yourselves" acts 2:40, "cleanse ourselves" 2 Cor 7:1.



2) I do not agree with you that man has a 'sinful nature'.

 

[Ph8th]

1)
2) I do not agree with you that man has a 'sinful nature'.

Do you believe you need a savior?

I know I am setting the stage for a big debate.............. Before doing so read romans 7 and romans 8 first

 

[netchaplain]

1) But my point remains is that YOU put off the old man with his deeds.

I much appreciate your sincerity for the truth of God's Word, regardless concerning differences of opinions (understandings), and is also what I see in many others on this and other sites. The Lord keep us persevering to know and rightly understand His truths!

Concerning Colossians 3:9, The intention of the passage, and many others like it, is not the complete avoidance of putting off the sinful nature, which no man can do either by his own will, nor by the Spirit who has not made such provisions; nor is the complete removal of the sinful nature designed, which is one of the greatest deceits of not only the Enemy, but the nature itself.

Whether or not we intend or do not intend to be prideful about not sinning, I believe it is pridefulness at the root. Desiring the complete avoidance of sinning is honorable and genuine within the believer, but I'm convinced conceiving it to be performed is a misunderstanding. Regardless of how Scripture reads pertaining to this subject, it designs the concept of never sinning willfully, and more so, that the sinful nature (old man) will not be allowed to rule or dominate the believer (Rom 6:12, 14). Sin-dominion is the state of living in continuous willfull sinning, which is the state of the unbeliever (Tit 1:15).

If the believer were rid of the old man's presence, there would be no need of Scripture often admonishing against it, seeing that the admonishments are never to the unbeliever. We can know that it's never our will to sin, which God works in us (Phil 2:13), but we can "walk circumspectly" (Eph 5:15) in being aware of how God is dealing with the sin nature in the believer (Rom 5:20). One of the primary reasons for Christ's Cross-work was to annul the guilt of sin within the believer (Rom 8:3); the Blood for pardon from sin, and the Cross for power against sin's dominion (not the absence of sins tempting, but its ruler-ship--dominion).

 

[smaller]

I much appreciate your sincerity for the truth of God's Word, regardless concerning differences of opinions (understandings), and is also what I see in many others on this and other sites. The Lord keep us persevering to know and rightly understand His truths!

Concerning Colossians 3:9, The intention of the passage, and many others like it, is not the complete avoidance of putting off the sinful nature, which no man can do either by his own will, nor by the Spirit who has not made such provisions; nor is the complete removal of the sinful nature designed, which is one of the greatest deceits of not only the Enemy, but the nature itself.

Whether or not we intend or do not intend to be prideful about not sinning, I believe it is pridefulness at the root. Desiring the complete avoidance of sinning is honorable and genuine within the believer, but I'm convinced conceiving it to be performed is a misunderstanding. Regardless of how Scripture reads pertaining to this subject, it designs the concept of never sinning willfully, and more so, that the sinful nature (old man) will not be allowed to rule or dominate the believer (Rom 6:12, 14). Sin-dominion is the state of living in continuous willfull sinning, which is the state of the unbeliever (Tit 1:15).

If the believer were rid of the old man's presence, there would be no need of Scripture often admonishing against it, seeing that the admonishments are never to the unbeliever. We can know that it's never our will to sin, which God works in us (Phil 2:13), but we can "walk circumspectly" (Eph 5:15) in being aware of how God is dealing with the sin nature in the believer (Rom 5:20). One of the primary reasons for Christ's Cross-work was to annul the guilt of sin within the believer (Rom 8:3).

I seldom AMEN a post here, but the above is worthy of such.

I am a bit harsher on my own "sin," particularly when I think I don't have any, as that is the essence of demonic deception and hypocrisy. The same hypocrisy that abode in the Pharisees, which was DEMONIC John 8:44, which Jesus was the harshest on and delivered His most vehement Words. And, remarkably, so is God in Christ, against "our sin." It's problematic for any believer to engage the fact that "our/my" sin is in fact of the devil. 1 John 3:8. In that light one eventually comes to understand the deep needs of Christ for all people, self foremost, because of our sin, AND the rebuke of Christ to the other working/worker. If we perceive, even the slightest temptation for what it is, of the devil, we become repulsed by any intrusion. Nevertheless to believe is to enter into that battle and engagement with that internal foreign enemy agent. Eph. 6:11-13

It is under His rebuke that few care to stand or engage, personally. Christianity has wallowed under the "good side" of the Word for quite awhile now, becoming great hypocrites, dividing, placing Gods rebuke freely and openly on everyone else and insulating ourselves from the rebuke of God to the enemy, which is not us, yet we are engaged, internally, with that enemy. We ARE personally engaged, internally, with the enemy of our souls, regardless of our sights of it or not.

It is under the rebuke of Christ that brings the pain of birth. And yes, it is gut wrenching pain, once perceived. As powerful as every Word of Love IS, so is the hatred to our spiritual enemies, powerful under God in Christ. The enemies that "attack" us ALL internally. And by this same attack, we do NOT perceive them as engaging us, within. They are crafty enemies. Unworthy adversaries. Yet they too have their forms of adverse powers, one of which is to "hide" their presence.

The Light of God in Christ WILL reveal all things. Even the hidden things of darkness. Matt. 10:26, Luke 12:2

2 Corinthians 4:
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

God in Christ is not impressed by any claims of believers thinking they are not still sinners, or even worse that it is in fact our sins too that are of the devil. There is no exercise of any religious act that will COVER and HIDE this matter, as much as we try to make it so. The very essence of salvation is to deliver us a NEW BODY that is not subject to dishonor, corruption, weakness and death. 1 Cor. 15:42-49. And this God in Christ WILL DO, when the TIME comes to do so.

The "delivery" however comes with the PAIN of childbirth. This is our "collective" pain under the suffering of sin. If the pain of a woman in birth comes with great deep screams and agonizing pain, how much more the delivery of the world?

It is a very hard thing to come to the understanding that "man" shall LIVE by Every Word of God. Yes, Every. Even the bad Words. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. We have all long been in DENIAL, failing to perceive His Rebuke, which is precisely delivered to GIVE BIRTH to the LAST MAN, Christ.

So, while we have love for one another, may we also look upon ourselves honestly, in anticipation of the slaughter of our enemies, which will transpire 'within' us all, in pain. One of the more difficult aspects of scripture to come under.

The dichotomy here, in these sights is extreme. On one hand, those in Christ shall NOT come into condemnation. And on the other hand, the very enemies that we deal with, internally in our minds and hearts, come into EVERY condemnation. It is on this ground that every believer is currently "divided," by not wanting to be divided themselves in facing Gods rebuke. And we all scurry to insulate and hide from the harsher aspects of Gods Workings, even while we are in fact being slowly destroyed by same.

Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

No one in the "church" teaches believers to stand up and receive the rebukes of God in Christ, as it is personally offensive, and doesn't pay the bills well. We all just like "the good stuff." The reality is, that Gods Words are far more powerful than any "lasers" we can conceive of, shedding extreme LOVE from One Eye and extreme Hatred from The Other Eye. We ARE meant to receive BOTH sides of the equations of God in Christ.

This is the LIGHT that divides us.

Our labor is not in vain, but it IS in pain.

The prophet Isaiah saw these matters AFTER he was made to see his own "woe is me" condition, Isaiah 6:5. THEN he saw the FINAL ACTION of The Collective Birth of the Final Spiritual Man, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 13:
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

We, presently, fail to see that this comes upon "all" of us. IF we anticipate our NEW BODY, then we should understand the destruction meant for the corrupt, dishonorable, weak vile old natural body, fated for the dust of after birth, dead from the habitation of SIN.

Final Birth comes in the Day of Wrath. And everyone says, OH, NO! Surely NOT upon, ME! Even as our collective belly's swell with the sins of hypocrisy and divisions, they also swell with The Spirit of Christ, seeded in the natural failing temple, readying for the PAIN of delivery.

Unlikely I'll hear any shouts of amen, in the above. No one takes pleasures in the sights of destruction. It is only natural to look away and to "preserve" ourselves, to save our natural hide, in which sin presently dwells. Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17:32-33

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it"

 

[Seabass]

Do you believe you need a savior?

I know I am setting the stage for a big debate.............. Before doing so read romans 7 and romans 8 first

Anyone that has sinned, as myself, is in need of a Savior.
The issue is by what means does the Savior save?

 

[Seabass]

I much appreciate your sincerity for the truth of God's Word, regardless concerning differences of opinions (understandings), and is also what I see in many others on this and other sites. The Lord keep us persevering to know and rightly understand His truths!

Concerning Colossians 3:9, The intention of the passage, and many others like it, is not the complete avoidance of putting off the sinful nature, which no man can do either by his own will, nor by the Spirit who has not made such provisions; nor is the complete removal of the sinful nature designed, which is one of the greatest deceits of not only the Enemy, but the nature itself.

Whether or not we intend or do not intend to be prideful about not sinning, I believe it is pridefulness at the root. Desiring the complete avoidance of sinning is honorable and genuine within the believer, but I'm convinced conceiving it to be performed is a misunderstanding. Regardless of how Scripture reads pertaining to this subject, it designs the concept of never sinning willfully, and more so, that the sinful nature (old man) will not be allowed to rule or dominate the believer (Rom 6:12, 14). Sin-dominion is the state of living in continuous willfull sinning, which is the state of the unbeliever (Tit 1:15).

If the believer were rid of the old man's presence, there would be no need of Scripture often admonishing against it, seeing that the admonishments are never to the unbeliever. We can know that it's never our will to sin, which God works in us (Phil 2:13), but we can "walk circumspectly" (Eph 5:15) in being aware of how God is dealing with the sin nature in the believer (Rom 5:20). One of the primary reasons for Christ's Cross-work was to annul the guilt of sin within the believer (Rom 8:3); the Blood for pardon from sin, and the Cross for power against sin's dominion (not the absence of sins tempting, but its ruler-ship--dominion).

Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off (middle deponent) the old man with his deeds;"
Col 3:10 "And have put on (middle voice) the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"



I disagree for "sinful nature" is not in Col 3:9 nor does the bible teach man has a sinful nature. " So many commentators want to make the "old man" into the "old sinful nature". But if the old man was inherently inborn in us, then there is no way that we could put it off." Dunagan Commentary. Paul clearly stated "seeing YOU have put off the old man". Therefore the issue still remains it is up to man to put of the old sinful man with his deeds and this is for certain something man does by his own will. 1 Jn 3:9 one that continues in his sinful deeds has not put of the old man.

Comparing verses:
Col 3:9 seeing YOU have put of the old man with his deeds
1 Pet 1:22 Seeing YOU have purified your souls

The similarity in these two verses is that YOU put off the old man, YOU have purified your soul.

God is the One who saves, Who cuts away the body of sin, cleanses the soul but God does this only to those that obey in submitting to baptism. Therefore those that obediently submit to baptism are in that sense putting off the old man, purified his own soul. Clearly both God and man have a role in mans' salvation and those men that do their role are in that sense "saving themselves" and those that do not do their role are "losing themselves". God does not save anyone against his will so those willing to be saved must do their role and 'save themselves".

Note Col 3:10 -- not only do YOU put off the old man but YOU put on the new man. It cannot be made anymore clear that YOU have a role in your own salvation and by choosing to fulfill YOUR role YOU can in that sense save yourself Acts 2:40, save thyself, 1 TIm 4:16; cleanse ourselves 2 Cor 7:1.

This putting off the old man and putting on the new man that YOU do has the idea of putting off old clothing and putting on new clothing.
Note again in Col 3:10 when Paul says "And have put on the new man"
The Greek word for put on is endyo meaning "to sink into clothing; put on, clothe one's self" Thayer.
So it is not surprising to find this Greek word in Gal 3:27:
Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
When one is baptized he puts on Christ, as one puts on a coat he then is in the coat. When one puts on Christ in baptism then he is in Christ.

See the glaring, obvious connection between the two? YOU put off the old man and put on the new man when you choose to submit to baptism......submitting to baptism you then are putting on Christ. Since it is YOUR choice to be baptized then in that sense you are putting on the new man, putting on Christ....saving yourself by making that choice.

Man not only has the ability, but the responsibility to put off the old man and put on the new man, put on CHrist.

 

[Ph8th]

Anyone that has sinned, as myself, is in need of a Savior.
The issue is by what means does the Savior save?

Luke 7:50 (NASB)
50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

 

[Seabass]

Luke 7:50 (NASB)
50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

This is an OT example of salvation not a NT example of salvation.
NT salvation requires belief, repentance confession and baptism, Rom 10:9,10; Acts 2:38, etc, etc. A faith that is void of repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins will not save under the NT.
1) Rom 10;9,10 NT belief requires one to believe that God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead
2) Rom 6:3-6 NT baptism is into the death of Christ.
The woman could not do either since Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

Furthermore the context does not say this woman was save by 'faith only' but by 'faith'.

 

[Ph8th]

Furthermore the context does not say this woman was save by 'faith only' but by 'faith'.

It never mentioned water baptism. He said to the woman your faith has saved you..........? Do you feel you must do some work to be saved? Do you understand grace?

I never knew love so true
Till I knew love from You
It is a gift given
Not for what I do
It is the Gift of Grace
That comes from You
Thank You Jesus​

Here is an excerpt from writings of.
John Rice
A favorite device of the Devil is to have men look to their works for their salvation instead of looking to Christ. He leads some to trust in their morality, some to depend upon lodge membership, some to depend upon confessions to priests; some he leads to trust in baptism. That is a fatal mistake. The unanimous voice of all the Scriptures is that people are saved by simple faith in Christ, without any act of righteousness, and baptism is never mentioned as a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is an act of righteousness, for Jesus said in Matthew 3:15, "Thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." Titus 3:5 says that such acts of righteousness do not save us:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Baptism is certainly a good work, but Ephesians 2:8,9 likewise says plainly that salvation is altogether a matter of God's mercy and not of our works :
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
Salvation is a gift of God which is not deserved, is not bought, and cannot be paid for. No church nor preacher nor the individual saved has any right to claim credit when a soul is saved.
In fact, we are told again and again in the Bible that the man who trusts in Christ has everlasting life immediately. John 3:36 says:
"He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"Hath" means has, present tense, in modern English. Likewise, John 5:24 says:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but IS PASSED from death unto life."
The same teaching is given in John 6:47:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life."
In the Bible, we find it clear that people believed first and then were baptized. According to these statements from God's Word, they were already saved before they were baptized and any other man who trusts in Christ is saved that second, before he could possibly get to the baptismal waters. It does not take baptism to save one.

 

[netchaplain]

I seldom AMEN a post here, but the above is worthy of such.

Thank you S for the commendation and interesting reply.

 

[netchaplain]

Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off (middle deponent) the old man with his deeds;"
Col 3:10 "And have put on (middle voice) the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

I disagree for "sinful nature" is not in Col 3:9 nor does the bible teach man has a sinful nature. " So many commentators want to make the "old man" into the "old sinful nature". But if the old man was inherently inborn in us, then there is no way that we could put it off."

It's not the good points that you make on which I disagree, but on some of the foundations on which you base them, i.e. I believe the Christian (and certainly not one unregenerate) can only walk in godliness by the Spirit of God, never self. Self can desire it but not accomplish it (anything godly) apart from Him (Zec 4:6).

Justification, purification, etc., is accomplished only by Christ--through the Spirit. To "mortify your members" (Col 3:5) of "the body of sin" (Rom 6:6) is accomplished by the Spirit as we yield to Him, which is our only part, for we, "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13).

All who "live (have) in the Spirit," God will cause to progressively learn to "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 2:25; Phil 2:13).

"Let us" (Gal 2:25 - yield). {2:25 is coming up 2:21 when mousing it on my system, so double check the reference}

Concerning Bible commentators, there are not many who disagree in their theology because the generality of them interpret Scripture and languages the same, and this is why I agree with nearly all of them in understanding. I esp. like Gill's on some of 1Peter 1:22:

"Seeing ye have purified your souls,...." 'The apostle passes to another exhortation, namely, to brotherly love; the ground of which he makes to be, the purification of their souls; and which supposes that they had been impure; and indeed, their whole persons, souls and bodies, were so by nature; even all the members of their bodies, and all the powers and faculties of their souls: it is internal purity, purity of the heart, that is here particularly respected; though not to the exclusion of outward purity, for where there is the former, there will be the latter; but there may be an external purity, where there is not the inward one: this the apostle ascribes to the saints themselves, but not without the grace of God, the blood of Christ, and the operations of his Spirit; as appears by a following clause; but they are said to purify themselves, inasmuch as having the grace of faith bestowed on them, they were enabled, under the influences of the Spirit of God, to exercise it on the blood of Christ, which cleanses from all sin.'

Gill's commentary: https://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/gill/1peter1.htm

 

[smaller]

Anyone that has sinned, as myself, is in need of a Savior.
The issue is by what means does the Savior save?

We have the Promise of Redemption which PROMISES are currently set in sin, evil and death. Why anyone thinks that their various religious exercises fly past the obvious in this present life is beyond me.

Nobody flies past the obvious in all their pseudo religious games and glories.

Psalm 6:2
Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak: O Lord, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And then along comes some religious persons, tossing even more condemnation out toward everyone, commanding, and if not obeying their imperfect sights, adding to this, their curses and threats of eternal torture or death.

Who are such people anyway? I see no life in these condemnations and commands. I see nothing but what they have plastered across their own lips.

While we look for Life and Love, along comes condemnation and death, walking and talking.

Is it possible that some day, some time, we can all actually love one another?

Is this even remotely possible when condemnation lurks around every corner, waiting to pounce?

I am a sinner, saved by Grace through faith in God in Christ. MY SIN is of the devil. So is everyone else's. There, have your judgments of condemnation, and in doing so, condemn also yourself. We can all find our weaknesses and infirmities there.

I don't expect the accuser of the brethren to ever change his ways. The pews are filled with such.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

We are all quite entirely equal in this regards:

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

That case has been made, this conclusion, set and sealed for ALL. There is no escaping it until we are CHANGED out of this present "vile body."

Now, let's see WHO can LOVE anyway, regardless of the fact that will not change, until we are changed. Love is the ONLY LIGHT we have.

And He is entirely enough to do so.

Condemners are a dime a dozen. Sprung up all over, as weeds in His Garden.

Jonah 2:
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever:

yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

 

[Seabass]

It never mentioned water baptism. He said to the woman your faith has saved you..........? Do you feel you must do some work to be saved? Do you understand grace?

1) Again, Lk 7:50 is NOT an example of NT salvation, so your argument fails at this point here.

2) the passage never specifically mentions repentance, confession or the blood of Christ, Does that mean these are not necessary in our salvation today? No!!!! Lk 13:3,5; Rom 10;9,10, Rev 1:5.
At the time of Lk 7:50 Christ had NOT yet died and NOT shed His blood so there was no such thing as baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins (Acts2:38) for this woman was living under the OT LAW therefore not accountable to Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16 as we today are accountable.

​

Here is an excerpt from writings of.
John Rice
A favorite device of the Devil is to have men look to their works for their salvation instead of looking to Christ. He leads some to trust in their morality, some to depend upon lodge membership, some to depend upon confessions to priests; some he leads to trust in baptism. That is a fatal mistake. The unanimous voice of all the Scriptures is that people are saved by simple faith in Christ, without any act of righteousness, and baptism is never mentioned as a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is an act of righteousness, for Jesus said in Matthew 3:15, "Thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." Titus 3:5 says that such acts of righteousness do not save us:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Baptism is certainly a good work, but Ephesians 2:8,9 likewise says plainly that salvation is altogether a matter of God's mercy and not of our works :
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
Salvation is a gift of God which is not deserved, is not bought, and cannot be paid for. No church nor preacher nor the individual saved has any right to claim credit when a soul is saved.
In fact, we are told again and again in the Bible that the man who trusts in Christ has everlasting life immediately. John 3:36 says:
"He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"Hath" means has, present tense, in modern English. Likewise, John 5:24 says:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but IS PASSED from death unto life."
The same teaching is given in John 6:47:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life."
In the Bible, we find it clear that people believed first and then were baptized. According to these statements from God's Word, they were already saved before they were baptized and any other man who trusts in Christ is saved that second, before he could possibly get to the baptismal waters. It does not take baptism to save one.

No one can be saved by his OWN works but must do GOD's works to be saved:
Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are two works mentions in Rom 10:3. One work saves the other work does not save. The work the Jews were doing that does NOT save is the work of going about doing thier OWN righteousness. The work that saves the Jews did not so was the work in submitting/obeying the righteousness (commands - Psa 119:172) of God.

--One doing his OWN righteousness will not save.
--One doing GOD'S righteousness/commands does save.
There is a night and day difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness and it seems Mr. John Rice failed to make this distinction.
Those that "worketh righteousness" are the ones accepted with God, Acts 10:35.
And those that continue to not do righteousness continue to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10


The fact that in Rom 10:3 and Rom 6:16-16 are two verses where Paul made obedient works necessary in order to be saved. That means "not of works' in Rom 4:4 does not exclude obedient works in doing God's rightoeusness but excludes the works of flawless law keeping per the context of Rom 4. If "not of works" excluded ALL works then you create a law breaker, an unrighteous man that does NOT keep the will/commands/laws of God. No one can be saved whie doing unrighteousness, for again 1 Jn 3:10 as long as one CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness he CONTINUES to NOT be of God.

=========================================

Jn 5:24 Jesus did not say whosoever hearth and believeth ALONE hath everlasting life. Mr Rice has ASSUMED the word "ALONE" into the verse. By Mr Rice assuming his religious bias into the verse,, he thereby was CHANGING the word of God creating contradictions. Jesus NEVER contradicted Himself by saying one must be saved by belief alone but then contradict that by making repentance confession and baptism just as important and necessary to salvation as belief- Lk 13:3,5, Mt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16.

Likewise, Jesus did not contradict Himself make "believing only" the only requirement to being saved in Jn 6:47 then contradict that by making repentance, ,confession and baptism also necessary to being saved.

Jn 3:16----------------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Lk 13:3----------------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Rom 10:9,10--------------confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------------baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shall be saved

Since there is just one way to be saved no alternatives, then a NT belief that saves MUST include repentance confession and baptism else it is a dead belief.

Acts 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
Acts 2:44And all that believed were together,

Who are the ones said to have "believed" in verse 44?
1) the ones that gladly received PEter's words and baptized or
2) the ones that rejected Peter's words rejecting being baptized?

Obviously the ones that "believed" in v44 are the ones that accepted Peter's words and baptized. So we have the word "believed" in v44 used as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES the obedient work in submitting to baptism. Note also the implication of the words of v41 showing NOT being baptized is NOT receiving the gospel word.

 

[Seabass]

It's not the good points that you make on which I disagree, but on some of the foundations on which you base them, i.e. I believe the Christian (and certainly not one unregenerate) can only walk in godliness by the Spirit of God, never self. Self can desire it but not accomplish it (anything godly) apart from Him (Zec 4:6).

Justification, purification, etc., is accomplished only by Christ--through the Spirit. To "mortify your members" (Col 3:5) of "the body of sin" (Rom 6:6) is accomplished by the Spirit as we yield to Him, which is our only part, for we, "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13).

All who "live (have) in the Spirit," God will cause to progressively learn to "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 2:25; Phil 2:13).

"Let us" (Gal 2:25 - yield). {2:25 is coming up 2:21 when mousing it on my system, so double check the reference}

Concerning Bible commentators, there are not many who disagree in their theology because the generality of them interpret Scripture and languages the same, and this is why I agree with nearly all of them in understanding. I esp. like Gill's on some of 1Peter 1:22:

"Seeing ye have purified your souls,...." 'The apostle passes to another exhortation, namely, to brotherly love; the ground of which he makes to be, the purification of their souls; and which supposes that they had been impure; and indeed, their whole persons, souls and bodies, were so by nature; even all the members of their bodies, and all the powers and faculties of their souls: it is internal purity, purity of the heart, that is here particularly respected; though not to the exclusion of outward purity, for where there is the former, there will be the latter; but there may be an external purity, where there is not the inward one: this the apostle ascribes to the saints themselves, but not without the grace of God, the blood of Christ, and the operations of his Spirit; as appears by a following clause; but they are said to purify themselves, inasmuch as having the grace of faith bestowed on them, they were enabled, under the influences of the Spirit of God, to exercise it on the blood of Christ, which cleanses from all sin.'

Gill's commentary: https://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/gill/1peter1.htm

I do not agree that men have a "sinful nature" whereby men cannot do anything good of his own will. Again, Paul clearly says YOU put off the old man with his deeds and Paul did NOT say "you did not really put of the old man but there had to be some miraculous regeneration by God first before you could do this." for such an idea puts moral culpability upon God for the "unregenerated" who have not put off the old man.

Acts 2 is a great example. In this context Peter was preaching to those that were lost. Yet in their lost, "unregenerated" state they were able to hear and understand what Peter preached to them so much so that Peter's words pricked them in their hearts prompting them to ask Peter what shall we do, verse 37. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized, verse 38. Those that of their own free will who were lost but was able to choose of their wn free will to obey that command had their sins remitted.
Nowhere at all in this context does it say these lost people had a 'sinful nature' therefore unable to hear and understand or obey the words of Peter unless God first acted upon their hearts in some way to first "regenerate" them so they could then hear understand and obey. They, by their own free will choice, obeyed the command to be baptized for remission of sin, and in that sense, purified their own souls. John Gill, a Calvinist, could not show from Acts 2 that God had to first act upon them so they then would be "enabled" by God for them to hear, understand and obey Peter's sermon. Gill is making an assertion/assumption that is not supported by the context.

 

[Ph8th]

I pray the Lord gives understanding of His word. Lord I want to thank You for ears to hear and eyes to see and knowledge that the war is already won.
Thank you

Proverbs 20:12
Matthew 13:16