Pristine

[Seabass]

We have the Promise of Redemption which PROMISES are currently set in sin, evil and death. Why anyone thinks that their various religious exercises fly past the obvious in this present life is beyond me.

Nobody flies past the obvious in all their pseudo religious games and glories.

Psalm 6:2
Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak: O Lord, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And then along comes some religious persons, tossing even more condemnation out toward everyone, commanding, and if not obeying their imperfect sights, adding to this, their curses and threats of eternal torture or death.

Who are such people anyway? I see no life in these condemnations and commands. I see nothing but what they have plastered across their own lips.

While we look for Life and Love, along comes condemnation and death, walking and talking.

Is it possible that some day, some time, we can all actually love one another?

Is this even remotely possible when condemnation lurks around every corner, waiting to pounce?

I am a sinner, saved by Grace through faith in God in Christ. MY SIN is of the devil. So is everyone else's. There, have your judgments of condemnation, and in doing so, condemn also yourself. We can all find our weaknesses and infirmities there.

I don't expect the accuser of the brethren to ever change his ways. The pews are filled with such.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

We are all quite entirely equal in this regards:

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

That case has been made, this conclusion, set and sealed for ALL. There is no escaping it until we are CHANGED out of this present "vile body."

Now, let's see WHO can LOVE anyway, regardless of the fact that will not change, until we are changed. Love is the ONLY LIGHT we have.

And He is entirely enough to do so.

Condemners are a dime a dozen. Sprung up all over, as weeds in His Garden.

Jonah 2:
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever:

yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

I think we can all here agree that God saves, but where the differences appear is in HOW does God save men.
God has, for His own purpose and reasons, chosen water baptism as the means to how He saves men, Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38, Rom 6:3-7; 1 Cor 1:12,13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Eph 5:26, Tts 3:5 etc, etc

 

[Seabass]

I pray the Lord gives understanding of His word. Lord I want to thank You for ears to hear and eyes to see and knowledge that the war is already won.
Thank you

Proverbs 20:12
Matthew 13:16

.......and this post proves.......??????

 

[netchaplain]

I do not agree that men have a "sinful nature" whereby men cannot do anything good of his own will.

My intention of the meaning of good is godliness, e.g. "He that doeth good is of God" (3Jhn 1:11). Conversely, he that is not of God cannot do good, for to the unbeliever, "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Pro 16:25). Unregenerate man may selfishly desire good according to their standards, but not God's. Even the regenerate man has undesirable interruptions and interference from the old man which sometimes result in an unintended product, but can never alter the believer's place in Christ.

 

[Ph8th]

Brother I am not trying to prove anything nor are the others they are just trying to help you understand. God doesn't need water to save men He needed blood for that atonement and that was the blood of His Son which was shed on a stake at Calvary. These battles and division are from the enemy ....... the war is already won.

 

[netchaplain]

I do not agree that men have a "sinful nature" whereby men cannot do anything good of his own will. Again, Paul clearly says YOU put off the old man with his deeds and Paul did NOT say "you did not really put of the old man but there had to be some miraculous regeneration by God first before you could do this." for such an idea puts moral culpability upon God for the "unregenerated" who have not put off the old man.

Acts 2 is a great example. In this context Peter was preaching to those that were lost. Yet in their lost, "unregenerated" state they were able to hear and understand what Peter preached to them so much so that Peter's words pricked them in their hearts prompting them to ask Peter what shall we do, verse 37. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized, verse 38. Those that of their own free will who were lost but was able to choose of their wn free will to obey that command had their sins remitted.

I believe everyone having the desire for God, from hearing the Word and whatever else God uses, is the result of His "drawing" (John 6:44), then never require drawing again, because their in Christ.

 

[smaller]

I think we can all here agree that God saves, but where the differences appear is in HOW does God save men.
God has, for His own purpose and reasons, chosen water baptism as the means to how He saves men, Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38, Rom 6:3-7; 1 Cor 1:12,13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Eph 5:26, Tts 3:5 etc, etc

Our salvation is "completed" when we are "finally" removed from sin/evil/death/dishonor/corruption/weakness and CHANGED to our eternal habitation. That physical exercise of baptism changes none of our current state. It is a "picture" of what is currently, and what is to come.

To think that it is some "physical tool" or some "physical exercise" that WE perform that "saves us" is a detraction from the Power of God in Christ. 1 Cor. 15:42-50. Only God in Christ has the Power to subdue us, and to change us.

We have a "final change" in the offing, as a Promise of faith. Phil. 3:21

 

[Seabass]

My intention of the meaning of good is godliness, e.g. "He that doeth good is of God" (3Jhn 1:11). Conversely, he that is not of God cannot do good, for to the unbeliever, "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Pro 16:25). Unregenerate man may selfishly desire good according to their standards, but not God's. Even the regenerate man has undesirable interruptions and interference from the old man which sometimes result in an unintended product, but can never alter the believer's place in Christ.

3 Jn 1:11 shows that man has both that ability to do good or do evil. I'm not familiar with a verse that say man "cannot do good" due to a sinful nature. If total depravity were true then man could not do good under any circumstance for he would always choose the evil. God is good, God stands for what is good therefore I do not buy into the idea a supposed totally depraved man cannot do good when it comes to religion/God but can do good when it comes to other things. If a man can do good when it comes to non-religious matters there is no reason he cannot do good when it comes to religious matters.

From your above post you admit:
1) the "unregenrate" can do both good and evil
2) the "regenerate" can do both good and evil

It only proves my point that mankind has within itself that ability to chose to do both good or evil Gen 4:7.

 

[Seabass]

Brother I am not trying to prove anything nor are the others they are just trying to help you understand. God doesn't need water to save men He needed blood for that atonement and that was the blood of His Son which was shed on a stake at Calvary. These battles and division are from the enemy ....... the war is already won.

There are too many verses (Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-7; 1 Cor 1:12,13; 1 Cor 12:13; Col 2:12-14; Gal 3:27; etc etc) in the NT that speak to the necessity of water baptism. Why? For God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves. The verse(s) that does not exist is one where God has chosen belief only as the standard for being saved. So what's not to understand here?


The blood of Christ does save/wash away the sins of men.
The question remains is HOW-WHEN does the blood of Christ wash away sins and/or why does the blood of Christ not wash away the sins of every single person?

Rev 1:5 John says Christ " washed us from our sins in his own blood."
John 19:34 says Christ shed His blood in his death.
Therefore man must have access into the death of Christ where His blood was shed.
Rom 6:3 "baptized into His death"

Baptism is what puts one into the death of Christ to contact His shed blood that washes away sins. The bible speaks of nothing else that puts one into the death of Christ than baptism. Why then does the blood of Christ not wash away the sins of every single person? Even though Christ tasted death for every man, Heb 2:9 - shed His blood for every man yet every man will not be savd for every man will not be baptized into the death of Christ contacting His shed blood that washes away sins. "Belief only" does not put into the death of Christ.

 

[Seabass]

I believe everyone having the desire for God, from hearing the Word and whatever else God uses, is the result of His "drawing" (John 6:44), then never require drawing again, because their in Christ.

Jn 6:45 God does draw by His word when men are "taught", "heard" and "learn" then men of their own free will "cometh unto Me"

God draws...men come. Man can fall away from Christ and become lost yet can repent and come back to Christ. Rev 2:1-7

 

[Seabass]

Our salvation is "completed" when we are "finally" removed from sin/evil/death/dishonor/corruption/weakness and CHANGED to our eternal habitation. That physical exercise of baptism changes none of our current state. It is a "picture" of what is currently, and what is to come.

To think that it is some "physical tool" or some "physical exercise" that WE perform that "saves us" is a detraction from the Power of God in Christ. 1 Cor. 15:42-50. Only God in Christ has the Power to subdue us, and to change us.

We have a "final change" in the offing, as a Promise of faith. Phil. 3:21

Again , too many verses speak to the fact water baptism is the means God has chosen to save men.

No 'physical exercise' that is, doing nothing cannot save anyone. How can one obey the commands of the Lord (do righteousness), Jn 14:15 by doing nothing? A person that "does nothing" would then be a command breaker, unrighteous.

 

[smaller]

Again , too many verses speak to the fact water baptism is the means God has chosen to save men.

No 'physical exercise' that is, doing nothing cannot save anyone. How can one obey the commands of the Lord (do righteousness), Jn 14:15 by doing nothing? A person that "does nothing" would then be a command breaker, unrighteous.

I've already noted that you have turned baptism into a law, the violation of which is either outright or potential condemnation. I've already pointed to you, this fact, which you seem to be in deep violation of:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Condemnation is one of the easier pits to fall into. Not saying such promoters aren't going to be saved, or that Jesus abandoned them. Jesus is "showing" such promoters what is, in fact, within them. Condemnation.

 

[Seabass]

I've already noted that you have turned baptism into a law, the violation of which is either outright or potential condemnation. I've already pointed to you, this fact, which you seem to be in deep violation of:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Condemnation is one of the easier pits to fall into. Not saying such promoters aren't going to be saved, or that Jesus abandoned them. Jesus is "showing" such promoters what is, in fact, within them. Condemnation.

God, not me, has made baptism a law/command Acts 2:38. Just fact baptism has been made a command makes it necessary to salvation if for no other reason for no one can be saved who lives in disobedience to God.

Jn 5:24:
1) for one to "not come into condemnation" requires that one CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe....meaning if one quits hearing and believing he will come into condemnation. Nowhere did Jesus ever promise "no condmenation" to those that do not hear and believed.

2) Jesus NEVER said "no condemnation" to them that "believeth alone". As I pointed out in other posts of mine, changing God's word in Jn 5:25 to "believeth alone" creates contradictions with the verses where Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism just as equal and necessary to salvation as believing. Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Matt 10:32,33

EPh 2:8:

Salvation is a gift of God by grace that CONDITIONALLY requires one have "faith" not faith alone.

 

[smaller]

God, not me, has made baptism a law/command Acts 2:38. Just fact baptism has been made a command makes it necessary to salvation if for no other reason for no one can be saved who lives in disobedience to God.

Maybe you'd be better off following this LAW:

Romans 13:8-10

 

[netchaplain]

Jn 6:45 God does draw by His word when men are "taught", "heard" and "learn" then men of their own free will "cometh unto Me"

God draws...men come. Man can fall away from Christ and become lost yet can repent and come back to Christ. Rev 2:1-7

Hi SB - I believe God draws by instilling the desire to do His pleasures (Phl 2:13).

I also believe one can fall from an attempt to pursue grace (professors only) but not from possessing it:

Gill: "ye are fallen from grace"; that is, either from that grace which they professed to have; for there might be some in these churches, as in others, who were only nominal (in name only) Christians, and formal professors; who had declared they saw themselves lost and undone sinners, destitute of a righteousness, and professed to believe in Christ alone for righteousness and strength, but now trusted in themselves, and in the works of the law: or from the scheme of grace in the whole of man's salvation, which will admit of no mixture of works; either it is one or the other, it cannot be both; wherefore by their taking on the side of works, they showed that they had entirely dropped the scheme of grace: or else from the Gospel of the grace of God, from whence they were removed, through the influence of false teachers; particularly the doctrine of free justification by the grace of God, through the righteousness of Christ; which was entirely set aside by their seeking to be instilled by the works of the law; and from this they might be said to be fallen, who were on such a bottom."

 

[Seabass]

Maybe you'd be better off following this LAW:

Romans 13:8-10

Rom 13:8-10 is law each person must follow or be accountable for on judgment day.

 

[smaller]

Rom 13:8-10 is law each person must follow or be accountable for on judgment day.

IF love working through faith is the only thing that counts, which is true:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (see 1 Cor. 13 for additional bolstering of this fact.)

THEN it would seem extremely irregular and quite well out of the form of faith working through love to promote water baptism (or not) as a source of potential condemnation.

The entire notion of immediately fleeing to a pond of water to dunk in with (whatever proper incantation-spell is needed) in order to save ones self from God in Christ is a bizarre notion.

"Quick, baptize me so God won't burn me alive forever" is NOT the Gospel.

I'd consider such notions more aligned with magical incantations and spells.

There are many such notions in various religions. "IF you do this THEN God is forced to do this."

Or even conversely, "IF you do this, THEN the devil is forced to do this." This is all MAGIC nonsense.

There is simplicity in faith:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That would be, at that instant, the blue is a done deal. Hath and is passed is a done deal. The faith baton has been passed to our Savior, who is entirely able of Himself to SAVE. And we, in that, are FREE in Love, to LOVE. Condemnation is not in the deck of Cards to Gods children and it is impossible for HIM to lose a single sheep.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. -

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[Seabass]

Hi SB - I believe God draws by instilling the desire to do His pleasures (Phl 2:13).

1) such an idea put moral culpability upon God for those He fails to 'instill the desire to do His pleasures"
2) Phil 2:12 goes with verse 13 which shows those that are obeying God are the ones that God is working in. For example, God commanded Noah to build an ark and Noah obeying proved God was working in Noah. Had Noah refused to obey God then that would prove God was not working in Noah.

I also believe one can fall from an attempt to pursue grace (professors only) but not from possessing it:

Gill: "ye are fallen from grace"; that is, either from that grace which they professed to have; for there might be some in these churches, as in others, who were only nominal (in name only) Christians, and formal professors; who had declared they saw themselves lost and undone sinners, destitute of a righteousness, and professed to believe in Christ alone for righteousness and strength, but now trusted in themselves, and in the works of the law: or from the scheme of grace in the whole of man's salvation, which will admit of no mixture of works; either it is one or the other, it cannot be both; wherefore by their taking on the side of works, they showed that they had entirely dropped the scheme of grace: or else from the Gospel of the grace of God, from whence they were removed, through the influence of false teachers; particularly the doctrine of free justification by the grace of God, through the righteousness of Christ; which was entirely set aside by their seeking to be instilled by the works of the law; and from this they might be said to be fallen, who were on such a bottom."

Gal 5:4 "ye are fallen from grace"

----the verb 'fallen' is past tense, indicative mood. The past tense shows an act that has already occurred not could occur and the indicative mood is a statement of fact.....it is a statement of fact that had already fell from grace.

----logically for one to fall from a tree requires he first get into the tree. One cannot fall from a tree if he is not first in the tree and likewise logically one cannot fall from grace if he is not in grace. The overall context of the book of Galatians in the reason why they had fallen from grace is that false teachers lead some in Galatia to believe they could not be saved if they were not circumcised so they went back to the OT law thinking being circumcised could justify them. Because they left the NT gospel to return back to the OT law Paul told them:

a) removed from the gospel unto a false gospel Gal 1:6,7
b) they had quit obeying the truth (gospel) Gal 3:1; Gal 5:7
c) making Christ's death in vain Gal 2:21
d) Paul was afraid of them " lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" Gal 4:11

Clearly the above describes those that fell from a saved position to a lost position.


John Gill says "that is, either from that grace which they professed to have; for there might be some in these churches, as in others, who were only nominal (in name only) Christians, and formal professors..." But the context does not say this or support this. In Gal 5:4 those Galatians did not "profess" for themselves they were in grace when they were not. Paul made the factual statement they had fallen from grace and the logic demands they were in grace in order to fall from it.

Gill says they "they showed that they had entirely dropped the scheme of grace or else from the Gospel of the grace of God, from whence they were removed :" How could they drop it if they never had it? How could they be removed from some thing they never had?

Gill says "particularly the doctrine of free justification by the grace of God, through the righteousness of Christ; which was entirely set aside by their seeking to be instilled by the works of the law; and from this they might be said to be fallen, who were on such a bottom."

How could they set aside the doctrine of justification by the grace of God, through the righteousness of Christ be set aside if they never had it?


Surely no one would go so far as to suggest a Christian can "set aside the doctrine of justification by the grace of God through the righteousness of Christ" and still be saved? Surely no one would suggest a Christian can "entirely dropped the scheme of grace or else from the Gospel of the grace of God" and still be saved?

 

[Seabass]

IF love working through faith is the only thing that counts, which is true:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (see 1 Cor. 13 for additional bolstering of this fact.)

You posted "If love working through faith" when Gal 5:6 says "faith which worketh by love"

The reason Gal 5:6 says 'faith which worketh by love" is because faith is a work and is dead if it is not a work James 2.

THEN it would seem extremely irregular and quite well out of the form of faith working through love to promote water baptism (or not) as a source of potential condemnation.

The entire notion of immediately fleeing to a pond of water to dunk in with (whatever proper incantation-spell is needed) in order to save ones self from God in Christ is a bizarre notion.

"Quick, baptize me so God won't burn me alive forever" is NOT the Gospel.

I'd consider such notions more aligned with magical incantations and spells.

There are many such notions in various religions. "IF you do this THEN God is forced to do this."

Or even conversely, "IF you do this, THEN the devil is forced to do this." This is all MAGIC nonsense.

Eph 2:8----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just ONE way to be saved then faith must include baptism. This is too simple NOT to understand.

In other posts, I have shown that those who are said to have 'believed" in Acts 2:44 were the ones baptized in Acts 2:41. Just another passage where belief INCLUDES being baptized and v41 shows one has NOT accepted the gospel unti lhe has been baptized.

There is simplicity in faith:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That would be, at that instant, the blue is a done deal. Hath and is passed is a done deal. The faith baton has been passed to our Savior, who is entirely able of Himself to SAVE. And we, in that, are FREE in Love, to LOVE. Condemnation is not in the deck of Cards to Gods children and it is impossible for HIM to lose a single sheep.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. -

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

in Jn 5:24;
1) did Jesus say" he that...believeth alone on him that sent me, hath everlasting life"?
2) can belief alone save one who will not repent, Lk 13:3,5?
Who will not confess Christ, MT 10:32,33?
Who will not accept the gospel by being baptized Acts 2:41?

=============

1 Cor 13:8 love never fails.
Jn 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments
A love that does not keep Christ's command to be baptized will fail

 

[smaller]

You posted "If love working through faith" when Gal 5:6 says "faith which worketh by love"

The reason Gal 5:6 says 'faith which worketh by love" is because faith is a work and is dead if it is not a work James 2.

IF faith works through love, THEN why do you seek condemnation?

Proverbs 28:26
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:

Since there is just ONE way to be saved then faith must include baptism. This is too simple NOT to understand.

There are SEVEN BAPTISM's in the scriptures. Yet we also know there is only ONE that really matters:

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:

 

[netchaplain]

1) such an idea put moral culpability upon God for those He fails to 'instill the desire to do His pleasures"

Hi SB - I believe you do well in presenting why you believe what you believe.

It is at the beginning, prior to accepting salvation that His work is already in progress in those who He knows are His, for I have yet to see direct references that one can come to Christ on their own desire without God's drawing. Hence the word "except" in John 6:44; also John 6:65.

Much of God's work in His "drawing" precedes the point of reception, ya--the entirety of one's life prior to faith being given, for one must be prepped. The point of the reception of faith is sudden, but not its preparation by God.

Phil 2:12 goes with verse 13 which shows those that are obeying God are the ones that God is working in

Yes, which is a continuation of His work already in progress. Your example of Noah is a significant point, in that one evidence of God within us is the continuation (never ceasing--to the end) of the desire and doing "of His good pleasure."

I believe one falls from or leaves something because the desire for it was not present. They were "tasting" faith to determine if they like it, rather than tasting and desiring it. If the desire for faith is placed within an individual, he will receive it and continue with it, rather than leave it, which is a show of not receiving it, or "they would no doubt have continued" (1Jhn 2:19).

Those who manifest the work of the sinful nature (flesh) are never "They that are Christ's" who "have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." I do not comprehend the admonitions of Scripture concerning sin to the saved as though they would again desire it, but for identification purposes concerning those who have never been saved, regardless their professing so (Mat 15:7-9; Isa 29:13).

Even though disagreements exist among Christians concerning the nonessential doctrines, agreement can continue in the essential doctrines!

God Be Blessed!