Pristine

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I had to confront the "full immersion baptism requirement for salvation" crowd in my own family a couple of times, with 2 of my children. Even having been schooled "in the home" about Grace, Faith in Jesus, Love and judgments, they were still subject to subversion by external forces. Both of them, wanting to continue in living right in college, were "recruited" by Campus Crusade for Christ. And both wound up being involved with a large (will leave it without name) baptist organization who demanded (my kids were already "baptized" anyway) full immersion, and the signing of a 9 point doctrinal position, 8 points of which I could agree to, as they were solid scriptural positions, BUT one of the points was that anyone who did not have "full immersion" wasn't saved. (I think this organization has since recanted this position, but whatever) it was deeply disturbing.

We had to have many long talks about the mental/spiritual implications that this demand brought to the table of understandings, which were, in effect, are you really willing to enter into the potential eternal condemnation of anyone of faith in Christ, who has called upon Jesus to save them? To bring that condemnation "into" yourself? To let that condemnation reign within you, to exalt yourself, and to potentially condemn other believers who may not agree with or performed this dictate? Is that act or lack of same really worth that end sight within? My own sight was clear. No, no if the requirement includes "that," then it is NOT of God or Godly. It is not that I object to baptism, but the implications and conditions that it is performed under, in agreements. Mark 4:24 indicates caution is required, as what you "deliver" to others IS what you will receive in return. IF you for example, measure CONDEMNATION, then expect that to return to you, probably multi-fold. This is how hypocrites are made.

Job 36:13
But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Love grinds slowly sometimes, but it does grind fine. Luke 20:18

 

[Seabass]

IF faith works through love, THEN why do you seek condemnation?

Proverbs 28:26
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:



There are SEVEN BAPTISM's in the scriptures. Yet we also know there is only ONE that really matters:

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:

Where did I post I was seeking condemnation???? The unbeliever who is not baptized is the one Mk 16:16 says is condemned.

The one baptism (Eph 4:5) is Christ's baptism of the great commission, Matt 28:19,20; Mk 15;15,16; Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38 etc.
Christ's baptism is to be taught, practiced, is commanded, saves and lasts till the end of the world. This is not true of any of the other baptisms mentioned in scripture.

 

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Where did I post I was seeking condemnation???? The unbeliever who is not baptized is the one Mk 16:16 says is condemned.

The one baptism (Eph 4:5) is Christ's baptism of the great commission, Matt 28:19,20; Mk 15;15,16; Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38 etc.
Christ's baptism is to be taught, practiced, is commanded, saves and lasts till the end of the world. This is not true of any of the other baptisms mentioned in scripture.

Many turn faith into law. There is no "law" of baptism other than from those who by their own subscription, have made it into such, in command and condemnation.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Seabass]

Hi SB - I believe you do well in presenting why you believe what you believe.

It is at the beginning, prior to accepting salvation that His work is already in progress in those who He knows are His, for I have yet to see direct references that one can come to Christ on their own desire without God's drawing. Hence the word "except" in John 6:44; also John 6:65.

Much of God's work in His "drawing" precedes the point of reception, ya--the entirety of one's life prior to faith being given, for one must be prepped. The point of the reception of faith is sudden, but not its preparation by God.

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

This verse tells me HOW God draws men and it does not involve any kind of irresistible drawing.

God draws by His word when men are taught hear and learn that word. Then men of their own free will come unto Christ.

The example from Acts 2;
--Peter did the drawing of men by preaching God's word.
--those Jews were taught heard and learned about the gospel and their lost state.
--they then of their own free will came to Christ when they obeyed the command to repent and be baptized

There is nothing in the context that suggests these Jews had been unconditionally pre-chosen by God APART FROM THE WORD to be enabled or "prepped" by God in order for them to hear, understand and believe. Again, this idea puts moral culpability upon God for those He fails to "prep".

Rom 11:20 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off..."
Rom 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

The Jews to whom Peter was preaching in Acts 2 had been cast off by God for their unbelief, yet those that answered the gospel call, (as presented by Peter), they are the ones that 'cometh unto Christ' and God graffed them in again. The Jews were once God's elect, cast off due to their unbelief and could be graffed back in again does not fit Calvinistic idea of predestination. [The Jews graffed back "in again" as the prodigal son was dead and is alive "again"]

Yes, which is a continuation of His work already in progress. Your example of Noah is a significant point, in that one evidence of God within us is the continuation (never ceasing--to the end) of the desire and doing "of His good pleasure."

I believe one falls from or leaves something because the desire for it was not present. They were "tasting" faith to determine if they like it, rather than tasting and desiring it. If the desire for faith is placed within an individual, he will receive it and continue with it, rather than leave it, which is a show of not receiving it, or "they would no doubt have continued" (1Jhn 2:19).

Those who manifest the work of the sinful nature (flesh) are never "They that are Christ's" who "have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." I do not comprehend the admonitions of Scripture concerning sin to the saved as though they would again desire it, but for identification purposes concerning those who have never been saved, regardless their professing so (Mat 15:7-9; Isa 29:13).

Even though disagreements exist among Christians concerning the nonessential doctrines, agreement can continue in the essential doctrines!

God Be Blessed!

Phil 1:5 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"
Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

God was working in them for they had faithfully remained in the gospel "from the first day until now".
God is working in those that are doing His will/keeping the gospel. This context, nor any context, says God must first work in one before he can be in the gospel, for again, that idea puts moral culpability upon God for those He fails to work in.

In another thread I posted twice with no reaction as to were in Jn 10:28 says eternal security is the reason one will not perish? Where does the verse say eternal security is the reason one cannot be snatched from God's hand?
The same can be said of Phil 1:6....where in this verse does it say eternal security is the reason Paul was confident God would continue the good work in those Philippians?



1 Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

(1) "Such a verse as this, of course, is made use of as a crutch for the proposition that a person "once saved is always saved"; however, it should be carefully noted that John did not here write of the false teachers that "they never had been of us," but that at an unspecified previous time, they were not. This is even more clear in the last clause where the word is not that they had never been of us, but that they are not of us. Their departure from the faith became final at some point prior to their leaving; but there is no suggestion by the apostle that those who departed had never been truly converted at the beginning of their Christian association. The fallen angels were not wicked from the beginning but became so; and Judas was not wicked when the Lord chose him as an apostle, but he fell "through transgression.""
Coffman Commentary (my emp)

(2) Five verses later John writes "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
Note that this is a CONDITIONAL statement that "IF" the word of Christ remains in them they in return shall continue in the Son. This conditional statement means that if the word of Christ does NOT remain in them, they will NOT continue in the Son.

(3) Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

Here is an example of those that "believed" and "went out from us" preaching the false teaching one must be circumcised and keep the OT law to be saved. These believing Pharisees where among them yet went out from them preaching false teachings as the anti-christs John writes about was once among them but later fell away from the faith then went out from them.



I do not think you can get agreement among people as to what is or is not essential doctrine.

 

[Seabass]

Many turn faith into law. There is no "law" of baptism other than from those who by their own subscription, have made it into such, in command and condemnation.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith/belief is commanded and therefore is part of Christ's NT law. This leaves the unbeliever a lawbreaker and lost.

 

[Seabass]

I had to confront the "full immersion baptism requirement for salvation" crowd in my own family a couple of times, with 2 of my children. Even having been schooled "in the home" about Grace, Faith in Jesus, Love and judgments, they were still subject to subversion by external forces. Both of them, wanting to continue in living right in college, were "recruited" by Campus Crusade for Christ. And both wound up being involved with a large (will leave it without name) baptist organization who demanded (my kids were already "baptized" anyway) full immersion, and the signing of a 9 point doctrinal position, 8 points of which I could agree to, as they were solid scriptural positions, BUT one of the points was that anyone who did not have "full immersion" wasn't saved. (I think this organization has since recanted this position, but whatever) it was deeply disturbing.

We had to have many long talks about the mental/spiritual implications that this demand brought to the table of understandings, which were, in effect, are you really willing to enter into the potential eternal condemnation of anyone of faith in Christ, who has called upon Jesus to save them? To bring that condemnation "into" yourself? To let that condemnation reign within you, to exalt yourself, and to potentially condemn other believers who may not agree with or performed this dictate? Is that act or lack of same really worth that end sight within? My own sight was clear. No, no if the requirement includes "that," then it is NOT of God or Godly. It is not that I object to baptism, but the implications and conditions that it is performed under, in agreements. Mark 4:24 indicates caution is required, as what you "deliver" to others IS what you will receive in return. IF you for example, measure CONDEMNATION, then expect that to return to you, probably multi-fold. This is how hypocrites are made.

Job 36:13
But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Love grinds slowly sometimes, but it does grind fine. Luke 20:18

You have not yet proven from the bible that the unbaptized will be saved by belief only.

The facts presented to us from the bible is:

Grace>>>>>>>>>>>>saves Eph 2:5
Faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saves Eph 2:8
Baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves 1 Pet 3:21

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then baptism is A PART of faith and grace.

NO verse says
belief only>>>>>>>>>>>saves

For that idea is in total contradiction to the bible that lists MANY things that saves as grace, belief, repentance, confession, baptism, hope, the word of God, the blood of Christ, Eph 2:5; Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Rom 10:9,10; 1 Pet 3:21; Rom 8:24; James 1:21; Rev 1:5

 

[smaller]

You have not yet proven from the bible that the unbaptized will be saved by belief only.

I believe Paul's statement of fact here is entirely sufficient and accurate:

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul saw no differently than what was conveyed prior, here:

Psalm 18:3
I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

or here:

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then baptism is A PART of faith and grace.

Perhaps that is so under your turning baptism into a law with attending condemnation. I reject condemnation entirely for anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them. They will be saved. Jesus forbids condemnation to such, and so do I, in His Light.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So, pick a law. I pick the law that is most favorable to my believing neighbors. No condemnation.

NO verse says
belief only>>>>>>>>>>>saves

So sez you. There are many scriptures that say faith in Jesus Christ by calling upon Him to save is entirely sufficient, as the above, even from Jesus' Own Lips. Yet, you reject this? Why? Is it some benefit for you to condemn? I see no benefits in your condemnations, and in fact I see a self made law and condemnation.

The world of believers is unfortunately filled to the brim with condemners of other believers.

Romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Condemners are dime a dozen.

 

[netchaplain]

. And both wound up being involved with a large (will leave it without name) baptist organization who demanded (my kids were already "baptized" anyway) full immersion, and the signing of a 9 point doctrinal position, 8 points of which I could agree to, as they were solid scriptural positions, BUT one of the points was that anyone who did not have "full immersion" wasn't saved. (I think this organization has since recanted this position, but whatever) it was deeply disturbing.

Water baptism is an obedience to the faith, same as confessing the Lord or our sins and many other commands, none of which effects faith but rather shows (justifies) faith. One Bible commentator wrote that he that has not enough faith to obey Christ does not have enough faith to be saved by Christ! Hence, faith and obedience are inseparable.

Thus, Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Conversely, he that is disobedient (continues in or eventuates so) does has not had faith, and therefore, "he that believeth not shall be damned."

 

[Seabass]

I believe Paul's statement of fact here is entirely sufficient and accurate:

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The phrase "calling upon the name of the Lord" does not mean just calling out to the Lord but means to do what the Lord has said to do:
Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Acts 2:21 Peter quoted Joel's prophecy that " whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and that prophecy was fulfilled in Acts 2:38:

Acts 2:21---------------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38---------------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Just one way to be saved/have sins remitted so that means calling upon the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord commanded in repenting and being baptized

Paul saw no differently than what was conveyed prior, here:

Psalm 18:3
I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

or here:

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.


Perhaps that is so under your turning baptism into a law with attending condemnation. I reject condemnation entirely for anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them. They will be saved. Jesus forbids condemnation to such, and so do I, in His Light.

Paul, like Peter, said "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:13 and this would also include obeying the Lord's command to repent and be baptized exactly as it does in Acts 2.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So, pick a law. I pick the law that is most favorable to my believing neighbors. No condemnation.

The verse does not say "he that heareth and believeth only". Believing includes all that Christ said to do and those that CONTINUE believing (present tense) shall not some into condemnation ye those that quit doing what Christ said will come into condemnation.

So sez you. There are many scriptures that say faith in Jesus Christ by calling upon Him to save is entirely sufficient, as the above, even from Jesus' Own Lips. Yet, you reject this? Why? Is it some benefit for you to condemn? I see no benefits in your condemnations, and in fact I see a self made law and condemnation.

The world of believers is unfortunately filled to the brim with condemners of other believers.

Romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Condemners are dime a dozen.

It is a matter of fact that the NT gospel does not teach "he that believeth only shall be saved".

 

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The phrase "calling upon the name of the Lord" does not mean just calling out to the Lord but means to do what the Lord has said to do

As you see it you mean? I see and hear and practice "judge not" "condemn not" and "forgive." That I do because Christ does so within me and for me. And I need and needed that same sight from Him to even begin walking "in faith." Luke 6:37

It is a matter of fact that the NT gospel does not teach "he that believeth only shall be saved".

Believe comes with "Judge Not" "Condemn Not" and "Forgive." First dictates. Obviously not everyone abides by these commands, do they? I might surmise it depends on Who compels a person, inside, to do so, or NOT.

 

[smaller]

Water baptism is an obedience to the faith, same as confessing the Lord or our sins and many other commands, none of which effects faith but rather shows (justifies) faith. One Bible commentator wrote that he that has not enough faith to obey Christ does not have enough faith to be saved by Christ! Hence, faith and obedience are inseparable.

Thus, Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Conversely, he that is disobedient (continues in or eventuates so) does has not had faith, and therefore, "he that believeth not shall be damned."

So, you would surmise that a person who has called upon the Lord to save them is not saved until they are water baptized? We could certainly examine the details of such claims on many sights to the contrary, the thief on the cross being first up for examination. Luke 23:42

 

[netchaplain]

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
This verse tells me HOW God draws men and it does not involve any kind of irresistible drawing. God draws by His word when men are taught hear and learn that word. Then men of their own free will come unto Christ.

Irresistibly or not, I believe all who do come to Christ are those who "hear My voice" (Jhn 10:27), and just as the Father gives "them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (Rom 11:8), He gives ears to hear and eyes to see.

Just as "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven" (Mat 16:17), "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me" (Jhn 6:37).

Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

I see no evidence linking those in verse 24 with verse those in verse 5. The believing Pharisees in verse 5 were in Jerusalem and those in 24 in Antioch, where they "subverted souls" (v 24). I would say this is the reason for this chapter, which show a group in verse 1. Verses 1 and 24 do not identify the Judaizers as "believers," in which I believe those in verse 5 eventually learned to avoid its teachings and remain with the Gospel.

This is a superficial observation and would require more time in confirming its accuracy.

 

[netchaplain]

So, you would surmise that a person who has called upon the Lord to save them is not saved until they are water baptized? We could certainly examine the details of such claims on many sights to the contrary, the thief on the cross being first up for examination. Luke 23:42

I said water baptism doesn't save, but shows salvation. Same as loving others doesn't save but shows salvation. I believe it could be safely assumed that if the thief on the cross had the time, he would have obeyed Christ concerning it.

 

[smaller]

I said water baptism doesn't save, but shows salvation. Same as loving others doesn't save but shows salvation. I believe it could be safely assumed that if the thief on the cross had the time, he would have obeyed Christ concerning it.

You do understand the frailty in making it a law, with condemnations attached, I might hope. There is a difference. Gal. 3:12

A lot of believers turn faith matters into their own law, such as with baptism.

 

[netchaplain]

You do understand the frailty in making it a law, with condemnations attached, I might hope. There is a difference. Gal. 3:12

A lot of believers turn faith matters into their own law, such as with baptism.

Not sure of what you are trying to share here, but concerning Gal 3:12, when Scripture mentions the keeping or doing the Law, it is in reference to one who could do it internally and externally, which is Christ only, for no man could have kept it perfectly (Jam 2:10), due to having the sinful nature.