Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Doulos Iesou]

Without going into great detail to begin with, one talks of Jesus coming in the air (Pre last trump) to catch His own church into the clouds of witnesses to ever be with Him. John describes them as the 24 elders, the four beasts, the great multitude, and the 144,000.

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. Revelation 14:1-5 (ESV)

I don't see anything about the Rapture here, perhaps you can elaborate from Scripture.

 

[John S]

Just for the record - The great multitude were NOT Raptured. They were the uncountable number of people who were martyred for believing in Jesus Christ.
White robes signifies martyrdom.

 

[DRS81]

Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:50-54

Hey Sister. I believe Titus 2:13 simply speaks of looking to the future of his second coming (i'm not telling you not too), but certain prophecy (Isaiah/Psalm/Ezekiel) still needs to be fulfilled for the rapture to happen at (any moment). I believe the rapture and the second coming all happen within the great tribulation. The dead in Christ/the first resurrection rising refers to the rapture, and scripture all points to the great trib. Take a look at the OP, and find out what you disagree with. Let me know, so we can discuss.

 

[Kathi]

Hey Sister. I believe Titus 2:13 simply speaks of looking to the future of his second coming (i'm not telling you not too), but certain prophecy (Isaiah/Psalm/Ezekiel) still needs to be fulfilled for the rapture to happen at (any moment). I believe the rapture and the second coming all happen within the great tribulation. The dead in Christ/the first resurrection rising refers to the rapture, and scripture all points to the great trib. Take a look at the OP, and find out what you disagree with. Let me know, so we can discuss.

I do not think these things need to happen before the rapture.The tribulation....yes.I do not believe that the rapture will happen within the second coming.I think the rapture is a separate event all of its own.That it will happen before the tribulation.So you must be mid-trib?

 

[DRS81]

I do not think these things need to happen before the rapture.The tribulation....yes.I do not believe that the rapture will happen within the second coming.I think the rapture is a separate event all of its own.That it will happen before the tribulation.So you must be mid-trib?

Yeah I'm more towards mid-trib or end of trib. What are your thoughts on Rev 20:4-6. Since we know that the Antichrist will appear at mid-trib, why are they mentioning the Antichrist/beheading/the mark/the beast and the first resurrection/rapture within the same context.

 

[reba]

Antichrist in not mentioned in The Revelation ... only in first and second John

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Antichrist in not mentioned in The Revelation ... only in first and second John

Indeed reba, some people connect the "beast" with the anti-christ though. I'm not convinced personally.

 

[DRS81]

Antichrist in not mentioned in The Revelation ... only in first and second John

Hey reba. But the plans of the antichrist are, in Rev 20:4. These plans happen in the great trib.

 

[John S]

When the antichrist arrives on the scene, then the Tribulation starts. His presence is what starts the Tribulation. He doesn't arrive midstream.

 

[DRS81]

When the antichrist arrives on the scene, then the Tribulation starts. His presence is what starts the Tribulation. He doesn't arrive midstream.

Hi John S. There was a discussion about a year ago in regards to this, given the (7year trib the name: 'The Tribulation' and the last 3.5 years the name: 'The Great Tribulation') There was a debate on that. We do however know that the Antichrist comes in mid-point of the 7 year trib because of Daniel 9:27.

 

[Eugene]

I'm a bit confused of what you're trying to say here. I don't think scripture teaches us there are two raptures, unless you can prove it through scripture. When you say "his own church" I don't think scripture is speaking of 24 elders, the four beasts, the great multitude, and the 144,000. Rather, I think when they mention the church they are speaking of (us) born again christians. What is the difference between the paradise now in heaven and those that die in the Lord today? Do you have scripture to back up pre-trib rapture. Your post seems a little scattered, I'm trying to make sense of it. I apologize if I'm not making sense either. - DRS81

Hi brother DRS81 again, I’m sorry for taking some things for granted.

DRS81 - I don't think scripture teaches us there are two raptures, unless you can prove it through scripture.
Eugene – I see at least four, and maybe more since there are seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two and Three that are all pre mid-tribulation. The first scripture is Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose; is this a catching up?

Beginning with Rev 4:1 all scripture is in context of things that must come to pass future from the Lord’s Day. Now I would caution all to recognize that the book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ to the church made up of every believer on the Lord Jesus regardless of their doctrines.

In Rev 4:4 John is shown the 24 elders round bout Jesus’ throne, and Rev 4:6 the 4 beasts are in the midst of Jesus’ throne. In Rev 5:9 these two ranks of believers profess that “hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” Notice that these two ranks of believer are present with Jesus when He receives His own throne prior to the tribulation beginning. Also notice their jobs in Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Over - they are in heaven) the earth.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. To be before the throne, don’t they have to be in heaven? And then Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. This group also has a lesser place than the 24 elders and 4 beasts. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. There are many that believe that this is speaking of Jesus being caught up, and it is not; remember that Rev 4:1 is showing John things that will come hereafter from the Lord’s Day. Well, where do we see these in heaven? Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women (Man child - also note the testimony of the five wise virgins); for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Man child), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5 . . They are without fault before the throne of God. Revelation 7:2. They received the seal of the living God in Revelation 7:2.

DRS18 - What is the difference between the paradise now in heaven and those that die in the Lord today?
Eugene – Paradise, the place of the righteous dead was the place Jesus took the thief when he was crucified; that was Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16), and after Jesus rose he took that captivity captive and Paul referred to it as being in heaven now in 2 Cor 12:4.

Thanks for your questions.

 

[John S]

Hi John S. There was a discussion about a year ago in regards to this, given the (7year trib the name: 'The Tribulation' and the last 3.5 years the name: 'The Great Tribulation') There was a debate on that. We do however know that the Antichrist comes in mid-point of the 7 year trib because of Daniel 9:27.

I'm Sorry - but that is incorrect.

 

[DRS81]

Hi brother DRS81 again, I’m sorry for taking some things for granted.

DRS81 - I don't think scripture teaches us there are two raptures, unless you can prove it through scripture.
Eugene – I see at least four, and maybe more since there are seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two and Three that are all pre mid-tribulation. The first scripture is Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose; is this a catching up?

Beginning with Rev 4:1 all scripture is in context of things that must come to pass future from the Lord’s Day. Now I would caution all to recognize that the book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ to the church made up of every believer on the Lord Jesus regardless of their doctrines.

In Rev 4:4 John is shown the 24 elders round bout Jesus’ throne, and Rev 4:6 the 4 beasts are in the midst of Jesus’ throne. In Rev 5:9 these two ranks of believers profess that “hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” Notice that these two ranks of believer are present with Jesus when He receives His own throne prior to the tribulation beginning. Also notice their jobs in Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Over - they are in heaven) the earth.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. To be before the throne, don’t they have to be in heaven? And then Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. This group also has a lesser place than the 24 elders and 4 beasts. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. There are many that believe that this is speaking of Jesus being caught up, and it is not; remember that Rev 4:1 is showing John things that will come hereafter from the Lord’s Day. Well, where do we see these in heaven? Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women (Man child - also note the testimony of the five wise virgins); for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Man child), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5 . . They are without fault before the throne of God. Revelation 7:2. They received the seal of the living God in Revelation 7:2.

When I refer to the word 'rapture', I'm referring to (us the saints) being brought up in the air to meet Jesus in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 at the second coming. There is only one rapture of (the catching up of us the saints in the second coming). Sorry, I should of been clearer on that. Also..

(1) Mat 27:52 is not a rapture scripture. It's simply letting people know that the Lord has control over life and death.
(2) Rev 4:1 is actually a vision given to John. Some mistake this as a rapture scripture, but it's not. It's simply a vision. The vision given to John was about the great tribulation in Rev 6-18.
(3) Rev 12:5 is speaking about a more glorious advance of the church, or a rise to some more glorious state and condition, and not a rapture scripture.

Blessings.

 

[DRS81]

I'm Sorry - but that is incorrect.

What do you mean, what is incorrect.

 

[agua.]

What do you mean by that?

Phew you're still here that means I didn't miss it Oh ... are you still here now ?

 

[JLB]

Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:50-54

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

Where in this scripture are we taught that Jesus could come at any moment without any signs taking place first.

If we are looking for the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ, then the signs He gave us to look for would lead us to watch for the season of His return.


Remember, it is the world that the Lord will come as a Thief in the night for, not the Church.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

Sudden destruction will come upon THEM! But you brethren are not in the darkness.

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:50-54

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


This is a scripture about the Day of the Lord, which is the Second coming of Jesus Christ when He comes with the Church at the end of the age to Gather his people at the Resurrection.

Jesus comes with the Church at the Second Coming.

The Resurrection of the dead is associated with the Second Coming. Mark 13:26-27

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.Mark 13:26-27

The saints in heaven will be gathered to Return with Jesus.
The Church Coming with Jesus, is associated with after the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 clearly states God will bring with Jesus those who sleep...

I don't see any language in 1 Thessalonians that teaches us Jesus Coming is imminent.

Please point out the phrase in these verses you quoted that indicate Jesus Coming is imminent.


JLB

 

[Kathi]

I am bowing out of this debate.Bye.... I am going to try and keep my end time views to myself in the future.I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.It is just frustating.

 

[agua.]

I am bowing out of this debate.Bye.... I am going to try and keep my end time views to myself in the future.I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.It is just frustating.

I've seen some other pretribbers here don't let how many people who agree with you discourage you.. Err Unless you're wrong that could be discouraging.

 

[JLB]

Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:50-54

This is Paul teaching us about the Resurrection of the dead.

The Resurrection of the dead is at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Matthew 24:29-31

The Resurrection of the dead takes place at the end of the age, on the last Day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

...those who are Christ's will be raised up on the last Day.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

The end comes after the Resurrection.

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the church!


JLB