Question about Bible Version....

[Louis J]

Hello, and thank you in advance to anyone who can help.

I am currently reading the New International Version in conjunction with the King James Version of the Bible. The reason why I like the New Internation Version is because it puts the verses in a more modern English. The reason I dislike the New Internation Version is because it changes "....man" and "brothers" to things like "someone" and "brothers and sisters". I'd prefer a translation that modernized the text, without making it more "pc". Does anyone know a version that, while modernizing the text, remains more true to the verses?

 

[gordon777]

Andy,

Does that mean you take no notice of the grammar and syntax of sentences and paragraphs?

Oz

John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

 

[gordon777]

The NIV doesn’t change meanings. Again, you are committing the fallacy of begging the question.


So, Christians aren’t allowed to discuss life?


If you can fully understand God, then he is a god of your own making. It is impossible for finite minds to fully comprehend God; there is much that remains a mystery.

The NIV is translated in the most faithless time, if it did not change meanings then the day of Christ would not come.





2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;






A life that is lost, and hated, has nothing to discuss about:




Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.







If we have the mind of Christ, and that mind is what is in us, then the mystery of God is the mystery of the Father and of Christ, and Christ in the form of God was entitled to be equal with God, even though He ( God) made Himself of no reputation on earth, but came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28.

We cannot instruct that mind of the Lord, as He knows what He did ( which is to gather together in one all things in heaven and in earth, even in Jesus Christ ( in God who is all things.) and Christ abounded towards us in ALL WISDOM to know the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, God, who works all things after the counsel of His own will, ( that mystery is made known to us IN ALL WISDOM.)

Our hearts are knit together in love ( the love of God shed abroad into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given to us. Romans 5:5.) unto ALL RICHES, and the FULL ASSURANCE OF UNDERSTANDING, to the ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE MYSTERY OF GOD, in whom are hid, ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE.

Now we understand the Spirit revealed to the Lords Apostles, for their understanding in the KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST, ( where all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid.) for Christ to dwell in our hearts as with the Apostles, by faith, grounded in love ( the Holy Ghost) to comprehend with all saints, to know the breath, length, the depth and the height, ( to know all about the Lord God.) which is to know the love of Christ ( the Holy Ghost) which passes knowledge ( to finite mind which is not then the mind of Christ/the mystery of God revealed through the Spirit to through mind of Christ, to know the infinite.) TO BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.

The peace of God passes all understanding, keeps our hearts and minds through Jesus Christ. ( His peace He gave unto us/ the love of God/ the Holy Ghost, which is the infinite in us to understand all things with.)






1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

[gordon777]

Does anyone notice, that the discussion for which bible version, involves nothing of scripture for anyone discussing the topic, and how nobody cares at all for any words of scripture that has constantly been shared with them on the topic ? ( to see Gods opinion from His words of what to trust, and what to not hear.)

Is that their way to find God/show belief in Jesus Christ, by hearing their own selves and by not acknowledging the testimony of Jesus Christ is the word of faith, and what to follow only ?

That one point makes their discussion not only irrelevant, but vain, because there is a Spirit in man which is the inspiration of the Almighty, that gives the understanding..




Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

 

[andy pandy]

Andy,

Does that mean you take no notice of the grammar and syntax of sentences and paragraphs?

Oz

No

 

[gordon777]

2 Corinthians 1:17 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?
18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, WAS NOT YEA AND NAY, BUT IN HIM WAS YEA.
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[Free]

Faith is in Jesus Christ, to believe it is He that died for us, which is to believe in the truth, ( the Spirit is truth, and it is the Spirit that bears witness. 1 John 5:6.)

As testified, we believe in Jesus Christ through the testimony of the Apostles of the Lord( they were eye witnesses, and so is the Holy Ghost which God has given to those who obey Him.)





John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.




God gives the faith, through His Spirit, an thew Spirit gives witness, by being in us, and the words being Spirit and life.

The original manuscripts will not give anyone faith, nor the Spirit, this is entirely by Jesus Christ. Anyone who seeks something original, and has not gotten faith from the first scriptures they came across( called by God) wont ever find the faith of Jesus Christ.



1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.




And yes, I will prove the wisdom of this world and men of this world is foolishness.



1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

That's correct, the verses that give faith in Jesus Christ, are all that man needs, and original manuscripts it seems you concur, are not required for further faith, because there is one faith, ( Ephesians 4:5.) and belief in the rising of Jesus Christ from the dead is that faith, which we have available at all moments since Jesus Christ was preached in all the world. ( the Spirit needs to be given for man to believe and understand in the Spirit of Christ., original manuscripts and men's wisdom/understanding, do not give the Spirit, God, does, and all is Spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14.)




Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The bible version that counts, is the exact opposite to what the wise in this world/scholars, the princes of this world, all claim it to be.

It is one thing only, it is Christ and Him crucified.

That is the wisdom of God( foolishness to natural man/the wise of this world/ the disputer of h.ids world, who is nowhere now.)

God reveals all through His Spirit, and all eyes that see original manuscripts, see what they think they should see, but for those who love God, God lets their eyes see Him (God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit, and in truth. John 4:24, which is this testimony, and thew ones who reject it, follow debate, and strife, not God at all, and we can avoid those who are wise in evil, but conveniently simple concerning what is good.)





Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.



1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

When anyone does not bring the doctrine which is according to godliness, God shows it is because they do not consent to wholesome words of Christ, they are perverse disputers, of corrupt minds, they are the ones destitute of the truth. They are proud and know nothing( the prideful scholars are nor chosen and choose their own understanding instead of that of the Spirit, given to those despised in life, so no flesh glories in the presence of the Lord.

They also it is testified, are ever learning but never able to come o the knowledge of the truth( not in original Greek.) and they are only fools, as they are revealed for their FOLLY.





1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the topic.

 

[Free]

The NIV is translated in the most faithless time, if it did not change meanings then the day of Christ would not come.





2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;






A life that is lost, and hated, has nothing to discuss about:




Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.







If we have the mind of Christ, and that mind is what is in us, then the mystery of God is the mystery of the Father and of Christ, and Christ in the form of God was entitled to be equal with God, even though He ( God) made Himself of no reputation on earth, but came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28.

We cannot instruct that mind of the Lord, as He knows what He did ( which is to gather together in one all things in heaven and in earth, even in Jesus Christ ( in God who is all things.) and Christ abounded towards us in ALL WISDOM to know the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, God, who works all things after the counsel of His own will, ( that mystery is made known to us IN ALL WISDOM.)

Our hearts are knit together in love ( the love of God shed abroad into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given to us. Romans 5:5.) unto ALL RICHES, and the FULL ASSURANCE OF UNDERSTANDING, to the ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE MYSTERY OF GOD, in whom are hid, ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE.

Now we understand the Spirit revealed to the Lords Apostles, for their understanding in the KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST, ( where all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid.) for Christ to dwell in our hearts as with the Apostles, by faith, grounded in love ( the Holy Ghost) to comprehend with all saints, to know the breath, length, the depth and the height, ( to know all about the Lord God.) which is to know the love of Christ ( the Holy Ghost) which passes knowledge ( to finite mind which is not then the mind of Christ/the mystery of God revealed through the Spirit to through mind of Christ, to know the infinite.) TO BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.

The peace of God passes all understanding, keeps our hearts and minds through Jesus Christ. ( His peace He gave unto us/ the love of God/ the Holy Ghost, which is the infinite in us to understand all things with.)






1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Does anyone notice, that the discussion for which bible version, involves nothing of scripture for anyone discussing the topic, and how nobody cares at all for any words of scripture that has constantly been shared with them on the topic ? ( to see Gods opinion from His words of what to trust, and what to not hear.)

Is that their way to find God/show belief in Jesus Christ, by hearing their own selves and by not acknowledging the testimony of Jesus Christ is the word of faith, and what to follow only ?

That one point makes their discussion not only irrelevant, but vain, because there is a Spirit in man which is the inspiration of the Almighty, that gives the understanding..




Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

2 Corinthians 1:17 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?
18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, WAS NOT YEA AND NAY, BUT IN HIM WAS YEA.
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the topic either.

 

[Free]

Oz,
I’ll start with two I thought of with no effort. I dislike long posts so let’s keep it short for now.

ps 51:5
NIV Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

KJV
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Let’s look at the Greek

Behold	Interjection
5771 [e]	בְּעָו֥וֹן bə-‘ā-wō-wn	in iniquity	Prep-b | N-cs
2342 [e]	חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי ḥō-w-lā-lə-tî;	I was brought forth	V-Pual-Perf-1cs
2399 [e]	וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא ū-ḇə-ḥêṭ,	and in sin	Conj-w, Prep-b | N-ms
3179 [e]	יֶֽחֱמַ֥תְנִי ye-ḥĕ-maṯ-nî	conceived me	V-Piel-Perf-3fs | 1cs
517 [e]	אִמִּֽי׃ ’im-mî.	my mother

Clearly the NIV writer inserted his personal theology whereby the unsuspecting think God sees babies as sinful. I’ve noticed the impact this has on those who hold that false view of God. (Jesus said the population of Heaven is like the little children so that is not Gods view of babies.)

(That would be Hebrew, not Greek. :wink) But that is the meaning. Look at the context:

Psa 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

The entire context is about the sin David committed with Bathsheba. He was sinful from conception right through to the time of writing this Psalm. If you disagree, then, please, precisely explain what verse 5 is saying.

It also agrees with Psalm 58:3 (also written by David):

Psa 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
Psa 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It also agrees with Paul:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The Bible consistently teaches that we are sinners by nature ever since the Fall, deserving God's wrath. That is rather the whole point.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(That would be Hebrew, not Greek. :wink) But that is the meaning. Look at the context:

Psa 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

The entire context is about the sin David committed with Bathsheba. He was sinful from conception right through to the time of writing this Psalm. If you disagree, then, please, precisely explain what verse 5 is saying.

It also agrees with Psalm 58:3 (also written by David):

Psa 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
Psa 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It also agrees with Paul:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The Bible consistently teaches that we are sinners by nature ever since the Fall, deserving God's wrath. That is rather the whole point.

David was considered to be illegimate, that is, his mother was thought to have sinned at his conception which is exactly what the Hebrew says. And no verse by Paul says babies are born sinning.

 

[Free]

David was considered to be illegimate, that is, his mother was thought to have sinned at his conception which is exactly what the Hebrew says. And no verse by Paul says babies are born sinning.

The context disagrees with you. It is all about David and his sin, not his mother's supposed sin. Besides, David disagrees with you:

Psa 86:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant, and save the son of your maidservant.

One thing you are right about though, a poor translation sure can give people the wrong impression, just as it has lead you to not understanding the sinful nature of man from birth. If that is due to the KJV, then it is a worse translation than I thought.

 

[jaybo]

The New King James Version. You won't get anything better.

Just your opinion. People should read a variety of translations (online, for free at biblegateway.com) then decide which one(s) they prefer.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

OzSpen,

I found more.

Ecc 11:5

Niv As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Kjv


the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

In the Niv a believer is told they cannot understand. In the hebrew more correctly reflected in the KJV, they don’t know.

This NIV freedom renders a believer thinking wrongly about understanding God preventing them from pursuing Him (cannot understand instead of today do not.)

Eph 1:17

Niv
. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit f of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

KJV
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Niv wrongly encourages an experience with the possible out come of knowing Him better. The correct translation is not an experience but the revelation or opening up the understanding unknowing God. This is wrongly describing the ways of God and prevents those who believe this from understanding his ways.

The context disagrees with you. It is all about David and his sin, not his mother's supposed sin. Besides, David disagrees with you:

Psa 86:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant, and save the son of your maidservant.

One thing you are right about though, a poor translation sure can give people the wrong impression, just as it has lead you to not understanding the sinful nature of man from birth. If that is due to the KJV, then it is a worse translation than I thought.

No, the context fully agrees with me. What you don’t understand is the stigma being thought illegitimate brought upon him.

Babies aren’t sinners but mothers can be. Jesus said the inhabitants of Heaven are like the unregenerated little children. That is Gods view of babies.

 

[Free]

No, the context fully agrees with me. What you don’t understand is the stigma being thought illegitimate brought upon him.

No, I have shown how the context disagrees with you. Again, it is all about David and his sin, asking to be cleansed by God, not his mother's supposed sin.

Even if he is saying he was conceived in sin, the implication, in the context, would be that he was sinful from birth. Either way, your interpretation is not correct.

Babies aren’t sinners but mothers can be. Jesus said the inhabitants of Heaven are like the unregenerated little children. That is Gods view of babies.

Human nature is sinful from birth, which is why we have the propensity to sin. No one, ever, in the entire history of the world, has had to show a young child how to sin; they just do it by nature. That is the problem.

Where, exactly, did Jesus say that "the inhabitants of Heaven are like the unregenerated little children"? That would mean we wouldn't need to be regenerated to enter heaven.

 

[D-D-W]

Did you develop this example yourself? If not, it is courteous to acknowledge the source of your diagram.

Oz

No - that chart has been around for years. THat version is probably 15-20 years old. The more recent one has the TLV (Tree of Life Version) pegged at right next to the NASB.

 

[hawkman]

Human nature is sinful from birth, which is why we have the propensity to sin. No one, ever, in the entire history of the world, has had to show a young child how to sin; they just do it by nature. That is the problem.

Where, exactly, did Jesus say that "the inhabitants of Heaven are like the unregenerated little children"? That would mean we wouldn't need to be regenerated to enter heaven.

I guess this would need another thread .
I know we are born with a human nature that God designed for us to have . I don't see it as a sinful nature but as a freewill nature .
Just my thoughts .

 

[Episcopius]

We have so many versions and so many tools to compare them.

I remember an old paraphrase called GOOD NEWS FOR MODERN MAN


I was dissing it one day and my friend Rick said “I was saved reading GOOD NEWS FOR MODERN MAN”

I don’t care too much for NIV, neither do I demonize it

Even THE MESSAGE has its purpose-all versions and paraphrases have their good points and bad points

The New Jerusalem Bible had a feature in its NT where all quotes and allusions to OT passages were in italics

The Orthodox Study Bible’s OT is based on Septuagint, and has features in Song of Solomon that make it clear who is speaking every line.
It’s NT is simply New King James.

We are fortunate to be in an era where so many versions are available and we can get on message boards and argue about how many angels can dance on the head of an iota subscript.

Oh the OP centers on NIV - there are very different editions of it - some give explanations for omitted verses and have them in the margins - yes, some editions just omit passags with no explanation

I like New Revised Standard with a tab for every book, I like KJV for ease of memorization -but I studied a lot of old English in college and am not put off by arcane English.

I have an NIV but don’t look at it much

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
I’ll start with two I thought of with no effort. I dislike long posts so let’s keep it short for now.

ps 51:5
NIV Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

KJV
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Let’s look at the Greek

Behold	Interjection
5771 [e]	בְּעָו֥וֹן bə-‘ā-wō-wn	in iniquity	Prep-b | N-cs
2342 [e]	חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי ḥō-w-lā-lə-tî;	I was brought forth	V-Pual-Perf-1cs
2399 [e]	וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא ū-ḇə-ḥêṭ,	and in sin	Conj-w, Prep-b | N-ms
3179 [e]	יֶֽחֱמַ֥תְנִי ye-ḥĕ-maṯ-nî	conceived me	V-Piel-Perf-3fs | 1cs
517 [e]	אִמִּֽי׃ ’im-mî.	my mother

Clearly the NIV writer inserted his personal theology whereby the unsuspecting think God sees babies as sinful. I’ve noticed the impact this has on those who hold that false view of God. (Jesus said the population of Heaven is like the little children so that is not Gods view of babies.)

John 14:30 misleads as to the ways in the spiritual world

NIV I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,

KJV

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

This is a typical example of the NIV writer assuming they understand the meaning and so freely change the words. They do not understand that Jesus was saying that the Devil has nothing IN HIM. It’s not a hold OVER but actually in. The Devil has an entry into the lives of many people and so has something IN them. If one wants freedom, one needs to understand this and fight that battle.

I can give this more thought. I’m not a KJV only and read several translations. But in my own reading I’ve noticed information in the KJV that brings understanding is missing in other translations. In places the KJV makes sense whereas the NIV doesn’t. (A good example is when the men couldn’t cast out a demon. Jesus says in the NIV, “his kind only comes out by prayer” which makes no sense since all the demons they did cast out only came by prayer, 100%. The KJV reports, “this kind only come out by prayer and fasting,” which makes perfect sense. This is a way of the Lord’s power in dealing with demons lost in the NIV.)

Now I also know the history of the greek copies and supposedly “oldest” texts so I’m fairly knowledgeable and less likely to despise the positions of others as I see others do who have challenged me on this. You asked with respect. They asked with jeering. I hesitate to throw pearls of understanding to those who already allow themselves to despise.

Dorothy,

You did not quote the Greek for Ps 51:5. You quoted the Hebrew. Don't you know the difference between these 2 languages?

The NIV gives the clear meaning of the text. It is a meaning-for-meaning (dynamic equivalence) rendition which is so much easier to understand than the KJV, especially for new Christians.

Oz

 

[hawkman]

Dorothy,

You did not quote the Greek for Ps 51:5. You quoted the Hebrew. Don't you know the difference between these 2 languages?

The NIV gives the clear meaning of the text. It is a meaning-for-meaning (dynamic equivalence) rendition which is so much easier to understand than the KJV, especially for new Christians.

Oz

It was a test for you OzSpen and you passed !

Hebrew was the language Dorothy Mae needed to quote , I had to go check that for myself .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy,

You did not quote the Greek for Ps 51:5. You quoted the Hebrew. Don't you know the difference between these 2 languages?

The NIV gives the clear meaning of the text. It is a meaning-for-meaning (dynamic equivalence) rendition which is so much easier to understand than the KJV, especially for new Christians.

Oz

Oz, The NIv radically changes the meaning away from the original.

The fundamental problem with a translator giving himself the freedom to change the words to match WHAT HE THINKS instead of what was written is this. Those translations true to the words do not assume their personal theology is 100% in scripture and they personally fully understand every verse. Those who
chose there own personal position change what was written.

And if the scripture has a double meaning not caught by the translator, it will entirely lost.

It was rather depressing to find the depth of false understanding of God in the NIV. Reminded of the Sunday a man read of the Passion or the Message and it became crystal clear that that author neither loves God not even knows Him. It is more likely the author despises Him.

And next time I’ll write “ancient language” so you have to engage instead of insult me.

What is clear is you and Free cannot discuss the particulars. Ad hominem is your only response.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It was a test for you OzSpen and you passed !

Hebrew was the language Dorothy Mae needed to quote , I had to go check that for myself .

I actually quoted the Hebrew which neither of you recognized!!! You thought it was Greek!!

This is a problem with simply swallowing the NIV sans thinking. I write “Greek” and you cannot analyze the text but are thrown off.