Question about Bible Version....

[Louis J]

Hello, and thank you in advance to anyone who can help.

I am currently reading the New International Version in conjunction with the King James Version of the Bible. The reason why I like the New Internation Version is because it puts the verses in a more modern English. The reason I dislike the New Internation Version is because it changes "....man" and "brothers" to things like "someone" and "brothers and sisters". I'd prefer a translation that modernized the text, without making it more "pc". Does anyone know a version that, while modernizing the text, remains more true to the verses?

 

[hawkman]

I actually quoted the Hebrew which neither of you recognized!!! You thought it was Greek!!

This is a problem with simply swallowing the NIV sans thinking. I write “Greek” and you cannot analyze the text but are thrown off.

I saw you posted Hebrew which was correct and I did not even notice you said Greek in the OP until it was pointed out . I just breezed by your typo saying Greek . KJV most of the time for me anyhow , NIV leaves me cold in spots .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I saw you posted Hebrew which was correct and I did not even notice you said Greek in the OP until it was pointed out . I just breezed by your typo saying Greek . KJV most of the time for me anyhow , NIV leaves me cold in spots .

I was depressed to read how many changes the NIV undertook. My NIV is pretty old and I understand they continue to change it as though new information is available.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(That would be Hebrew, not Greek. :wink) But that is the meaning. Look at the context:

Psa 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

The entire context is about the sin David committed with Bathsheba. He was sinful from conception right through to the time of writing this Psalm. If you disagree, then, please, precisely explain what verse 5 is saying.

It also agrees with Psalm 58:3 (also written by David):

Psa 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
Psa 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It also agrees with Paul:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The Bible consistently teaches that we are sinners by nature ever since the Fall, deserving God's wrath. That is rather the whole point.

The Bible consistently teaches he who sins is a sinner. The concept “sin nature”from birth isn’t there. Augustine introduced that theology.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course you can begin with the KJV, it is the version that gave the bible to the ordinary man and away from the control of Catholic priests.

God wanted man to hear directly himself, and that is why this time, is the latter rain, to go with the early rain.

NIV does change things from the KJV, and it is simple to know why, because the end is right here and now, and corruption and the corrupot, are all that remains on earth. ( if they wish to dent that, I will prove that.)



James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Their eschatology gives them license to change the Word of God??? Haven’t they read in Revelation of the punishments for those who do this?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, The NIv radically changes the meaning away from the original.

The fundamental problem with a translator giving himself the freedom to change the words to match WHAT HE THINKS instead of what was written is this. Those translations true to the words do not assume their personal theology is 100% in scripture and they personally fully understand every verse. Those who
chose there own personal position change what was written.

And if the scripture has a double meaning not caught by the translator, it will entirely lost.

It was rather depressing to find the depth of false understanding of God in the NIV. Reminded of the Sunday a man read of the Passion or the Message and it became crystal clear that that author neither loves God not even knows Him. It is more likely the author despises Him.

And next time I’ll write “ancient language” so you have to engage instead of insult me.

What is clear is you and Free cannot discuss the particulars. Ad hominem is your only response.

Dorothy,

Are you a translator of the biblical languages? Do you know enough of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek to be able to translate accurately - either formal equivalence or dynamic equivalence?

I most definitely can discuss the particulars - without logical fallacies.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I actually quoted the Hebrew which neither of you recognized!!! You thought it was Greek!!

This is a problem with simply swallowing the NIV sans thinking. I write “Greek” and you cannot analyze the text but are thrown off.

Writing Greek is not equivalent to understanding Greek words, grammar, and syntax. I think you need to do some more advanced study in Greek and Hebrew.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I was depressed to read how many changes the NIV undertook. My NIV is pretty old and I understand they continue to change it as though new information is available.

Have you ever stopped to think it's the staid KJV that has rejected dynamic equivalence so we cannot understand the meaning?

Leave the NIV to people like me who know that meaning-for-meaning translations are better for the common folks.

Oz

 

[gordon777]

Nobody wants or likes change, in fact this topic was designed not for change, but for discussion, and debate.

That is why the verses revealing people questioning these things, is answered, whether it is KJV, NIV, or whatever version, they are still without understanding, because they are men and women and strife is their only outcome and purpose then, all along.

One says they are KJV, another they are NIV, it has already been testified about your divisional discussions, they are worldly. ( and even though the topic is designed to avoid the testimonies of scripture, these people are seen to be doing exactly what God has shown people do.



Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Corinthians 3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy,

Are you a translator of the biblical languages? Do you know enough of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek to be able to translate accurately - either formal equivalence or dynamic equivalence?

I most definitely can discuss the particulars - without logical fallacies.

Oz

These things were written that we can read it and understand the truth and believe. No one writing the scripture thought only the highly educated can understand it. It’s actually the opposite that is true. The Bible says He reveals matter to babes, hiding from the wise and intelligent.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Writing Greek is not equivalent to understanding Greek words, grammar, and syntax. I think you need to do some more advanced study in Greek and Hebrew.

Oz

I have yet to meet a theologian highly educated in Greek or Hebrew who understands God because of their studies. Again, His ways are past studying Greek or Hebrew and thereby finding out. God hides from those who consider themselves superior.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have you ever stopped to think it's the staid KJV that has rejected dynamic equivalence so we cannot understand the meaning?

No, because I easily understand the meaning. But I have a better than average education in Shakespeare who I also read for pleasure in my youth. I’m not alone. Many find Shakespeare amazing and not at all impossible to understand. The language is similar.

Leave the NIV to people like me who know that meaning-for-meaning translations are better for the common folks.

Oz

No, the meaning for meaning depends entirely upon the writer completely understanding the intent of the author. From many examples I read, they didn’t. You then are left with their substandard understanding.

As I said, understanding the ways of God from the NIV will be difficult.

 

[gordon777]

Then the highly educated have their own intelligence revealed to themselves and others, by the spirit that is in man.



1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.





But God chooses those who cant possibly glory in His presence, because they only know Gods words for their understanding, and glory is withheld from this world, when you rely only on God for all things.




1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[gordon777]

No, because I easily understand the meaning. But I have a better than average education in Shakespeare who I also read for pleasure in my youth. I’m not alone. Many find Shakespeare amazing and not at all impossible to understand. The language is similar.

Shakespeare is amazing, because he is not Jesus Christ, but has to bow to the name of Jesus Christ ( amazing that people honour nothing/nobody, so highly, and dishonour the exalted Jesus Christ through it.) and the words of Shakespeare and all this world disappear and vanish but the Word of Christ is living and is for ever.






Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is obvious is those who refuse to consider the problems with the NIV refuse to discuss them. Instead they lob ad hominem shots. Only one of the NT writers were highly educated. Only one. Nevertheless their understanding fat exceeds every single theologian since, no matter how excellent their Greek or Hebrew.

 

[gordon777]

God wants us to discuss problems or see the answers of faith ?

Discussions are perverse, not godly..




1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.



Greek cant be excellent nor can Hebrew, as....



1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Shakespeare is amazing, because he is not Jesus Christ, but has to bow to the name of Jesus Christ ( amazing that people honour nothing/nobody, so highly, and dishonour the exalted Jesus Christ through it.) and the words of Shakespeare and all this world disappear and vanish but the Word of Christ is living and is for ever.






Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The benefits of practicing an unfamiliar language cannot be underestimated.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’ll give an example of the problem with thought to thought translation. I am bilingual. So suppose I write the following in English,

“Why did you go there at that time? What did you think you would accomplish?” and a translator decide to add some passion and translated it as,

“What were you thinking of barging in in that way? What in world did you expect them to do? Roll over and play dead?”

This is an example of thought for thought translation with the translator thinking his understanding equals my communication.

Since I know both languages, I’d protest that his thought for thought assumed he understood.

 

[gordon777]

The benefits of practicing an unfamiliar language cannot be underestimated.

Proverbs 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.




Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Proverbs 23:5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

 

[gordon777]

OK have it your own way, and if anyone wants to hear your instruction Dorothy Mae, they wont hear mine at the same time. Bye bye

 

[D-D-W]

Dorothy,

You did not quote the Greek for Ps 51:5. You quoted the Hebrew. Don't you know the difference between these 2 languages?

You have heard the old saying: "It's all Greek to me."

Seriously, most churches are so focused on NT Greek (and even the OT septuagint Greek) that it is forgotten that 2/3 of the Bible was written in Hebrew, and much of the latter third either quotes the Hebrew or shows the Hebraic logic and mindset as set forth in the Hebrew scriptures.