Question about Daniel 9

[JLB]

You have the 7wks, the 62wks, and then 1 more wk to make 70wks. They all run concurrently without any gaps. They are the 70wks left for Jews to have a monopoly on being 'God's People'. The 'one week' of Dan 9:27 is the 70th week. For this 'one week' Jesus is presented as the promised Jewish Messiah to Israel, which completes the Abrahamic covenant for those Jews who accept Him. It was Christ's sacrifice on the Cross in the midst of the 70th wk which rendered Temple sacrifices for the atonement of Israel's sins redundant and unsatisfactory. Stephen is murdered by the Jewish leadership at the end of the 70th week. From that time on, at what would be the beginning of a 71st week, the Gospel is proclaimed to the gentiles. Because the 70wks culminate in Christ, who came as a blessing to Daniel's people (Israel), the judgment and destruction of the Temple system happen to that generation, but outside and after the 70wks. To those who rejected Him and His gift, Jesus became a curse. This still holds true today for everyone everywhere.

Messiah was cut off 5 Days after the 69th week, not 3 1/2 years.

Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.
9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?" 11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:9-11
Jesus said if these people don't praise me the stones will cry out.

This was the prophecy from Daniel being fulfilled and nothing in heaven or on earth was going to stop it from coming to pass!

Psalm 118:21-26
21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

This event marked the end of the 69th week!

Five days later, after the 69th week, Messiah was "cut off" on Passover.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


The prophecy is clearly still running in 70 AD. Please look for yourself at verse 26.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The framework of this prophetic word is still intact in 70 AD.

The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans.

It is the Romans who destroyed the city and sanctuary and it is the prince who is to come who is last mentioned in verse 26.

Two points in verse 26.

• The prince who is to come is the last person mentioned.

• The prophecy is still running and has come to an event that is dated in 70 AD

Now comes the 70th week in verse 27 -


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.


By saying Then, the Author is telling us the 70th week is after the events of verse 26 which is 70 AD.


Messiah was crucified in 33 AD, yet the 70th week has not occurred in 70 AD.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. [verse 26]


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Messiah was cut off 5 Days after the 69th week, not 3 1/2 years.

Even your viewpoint has Messiah cut off 5 days into the 70th week.
Dan 9:24 of the prophecy gives 70wks for the Messianic blessings to be bestowed upon Daniel's people. These are all good things, but the Jewish leadership rejects them. The Gospel being extended to gentiles, and the destruction of the Temple system are not part of the 70wks. They come afterwards as a consequence of the rejection of their Messiah By Jesus' generation.

Dan 9:25 gives the timeline (no 'Gaps'), while Dan 9:26 and Dan 9:27 provide two viewpoints of Jesus' ministry, and the prophetic results of it's being prophetically rejected by that generation of Daniel's people.

 

[JLB]

Even your viewpoint has Messiah cut off 5 days into the 70th week.
Dan 9:24 of the prophecy gives 70wks for the Messianic blessings to be bestowed upon Daniel's people. These are all good things, but the Jewish leadership rejects them. The Gospel being extended to gentiles, and the destruction of the Temple system are not part of the 70wks. They come afterwards as a consequence of the rejection of their Messiah By Jesus' generation.

Dan 9:25 gives the timeline (no 'Gaps'), while Dan 9:26 and Dan 9:27 provide two viewpoints of Jesus' ministry, and the prophetic results of it's being prophetically rejected by that generation of Daniel's people.

Dan 9:25 gives the timeline (no 'Gaps')

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

The reason for the gaps in the first 69 weeks is explained in Ezra.

23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.
Ezra 4:23-24

The gaps are clearly indicated in Daniel 9:25 by the structure of the prophecy.
7 weeks and 62 weeks.

If there were no gaps it would read 69 weeks.

So you have revealed to all who read these post's that you err not knowing the scripture!

Or your just to lazy to do any actual study, preferring to be spoon fed by those of your preterist influence.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

The reason for the gaps in the first 69 weeks is explained in Ezra.

23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.
Ezra 4:23-24

The gaps are clearly indicated in Daniel 9:25 by the structure of the prophecy.
7 weeks and 62 weeks.

If there were no gaps it would read 69 weeks.

So you have revealed to all who read these post's that you err not knowing the scripture!

edited by staff

JLB

Your professed timeline doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Ezra 4:23-24 happens long before the 70wks even start. It can not be illustrating a gap between the 7 and 62 weeks because there isn't even enough time for 7wks to fit in between any hypothetical 'command' and the 2nd year of Darius. Further, starting the 62 weeks at the second year of any of the three Darius' renders impossible your belief that Palm Sunday consummated the 69wks.

There are no gaps in the 70wks. The notation of 70wks as 7+62+1 weeks present clues, which allows those who interpret the clues correctly to know exactly what 'command' starts the countdown for Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, and ultimately confirms to the wise that Jesus is in fact the promised Messiah.

 

[JLB]

Lazy-schmazy. Your professed timeline doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Ezra 4:23-24 happens long before the 70wks even start. It can not be illustrating a gap between the 7 and 62 weeks because there isn't even enough time for 7wks to fit in between any hypothetical 'command' and the 2nd year of Darius. Further, starting the 62 weeks at the second year of any of the three Darius' renders impossible your belief that Palm Sunday consummated the 69wks.

There are no gaps in the 70wks. The notation of 70wks as 7+62+1 weeks present clues, which allows those who interpret the clues correctly to know exactly what 'command' starts the countdown for Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, and ultimately confirms to the wise that Jesus is in fact the promised Messiah.

Here's what the scripture says -

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, 2 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Ezra 1:1-2


that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled...



1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans-- 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:1-2


I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet...



Both Daniel and Ezra refer to the time period, that Jeremiah prophesied about, of 70 years of captivity by the Babylonians.

Let's see what Matthew says -

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17


captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

A Generation is 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years
Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years
Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation
33 = Birth to “Palm Sunday”
490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth” to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks
[Messiah the Prince; Hosanna to the son of David]

Edited by staff


JLB

 

[reba]

Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years

The only reason i see for subtracting those 70 years it to fit your (mans) time line. Think God didn't know they would be in captivity? (Not meant to be snarky) I just dont get it Scripturally . I see why to mans thinking the 70 is subtracted and in MHO it discounts the time line.

 

[JLB]

The only reason i see for subtracting those 70 years it to fit your (mans) time line. Think God didn't know they would be in captivity? (Not meant to be snarky) I just dont get it Scripturally . I see why to mans thinking the 70 is subtracted and in MHO it discounts the time line.

The 69 weeks starts at the going forth of the command, not from the beginning of the time of captivity.

"Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;


The total time, from the beginning of the captivity to Christ is 560 years.

We subtract 70 years for the time of captivity.

After the time of captivity [70 years] is over, now comes the command to restore and build Jerusalem.

That time-frame, from the command until Messiah The Prince is 69 weeks [483 years].


JLB

 

[reba]

Thanks JLB i finly get your reasining..not that i agree Doing a bit of study with the resources available i can plainly see the scriptures do not give us an exact time. I find a lot of stuff in Scripture to not be exact which i believe is just part of God's over all plan so we dont get the big head thinking we got the answers...Simple things like rounding of numbers.

 

[Sinthesis]

Here's what the scripture says -

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, 2 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Ezra 1:1-2


that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled...



1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans-- 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:1-2


I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet...



Both Daniel and Ezra refer to the time period, that Jeremiah prophesied about, of 70 years of captivity by the Babylonians.

Let's see what Matthew says -

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17


captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

A Generation is 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years
Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years
Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation
33 = Birth to “Palm Sunday”
490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth” to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks
[Messiah the Prince; Hosanna to the son of David]

edited by staff

JLB

Well that's certainly an interesting construction. However, it seems to conflict with the historic record. It seems you believe the 69th week ended in 33AD, yet you have neglected to assign the years to any other prophetic time period.

In order to flesh out your offered timeline:

• What year did the Babylonian captivity start? End?
• What year did the 7wks start? End?
• Did the 69wks start the same year as the 7wks?
• What year did your 40 year gap between the 7wks and 62wks start? End?
• What year did the 62wks start? Are we to assume the 62wks ended in 33AD, the same year you say the 69wks did?
• Do you believe it is necessary that exactly 560 literal years separate King David and the Captivity?
• Do you believe it was also only 560 literal years separating Abraham and King David?

Would your faith be shaken if it could be demonstrated that this particular interpretation of the 70wks prophecy can't be correct?

 

[Hammer]

The gaps are clearly indicated in Daniel 9:25 by the structure of the prophecy.
7 weeks and 62 weeks.

If there were no gaps it would read 69 weeks.

The reason for the 7 weeks and 62 weeks is because of the main event at 62 weeks, not because there's a gap. If there were a gap, the 7 weeks would be completely meaningless because there would be no starting point for it.

 

[JLB]

Well that's certainly an interesting construction. However, it seems to conflict with the historic record. It seems you believe the 69th week ended in 33AD, yet you have neglected to assign the years to any other prophetic time period.

In order to flesh out your offered timeline:

• What year did the Babylonian captivity start? End?
• What year did the 7wks start? End?
• Did the 69wks start the same year as the 7wks?
• What year did your 40 year gap between the 7wks and 62wks start? End?
• What year did the 62wks start? Are we to assume the 62wks ended in 33AD, the same year you say the 69wks did?
• Do you believe it is necessary that exactly 560 literal years separate King David and the Captivity?
• Do you believe it was also only 560 literal years separating Abraham and King David?

Would your faith be shaken if it could be demonstrated that this particular interpretation of the 70wks prophecy can't be correct?

Go ahead and shake my faith!

You have my timeline and the scriptures I have referenced.

If you have some great desire to establish some of the start and end points in this time line then go ahead and show me the scriptures you have.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The reason for the 7 weeks and 62 weeks is because of the main event at 62 weeks, not because there's a gap. If there were a gap, the 7 weeks would be completely meaningless because there would be no starting point for it.

You seem to be very good at stating your opinion.

How about giving some scripture to validate your belief's.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

That is exactly what my first statement said when I mentioned that dispensationalist believe in the GAP, in which you then tried to correct me, but now you are admitting that you do believe in the GAP. Not all futurists believe Dan 9 teaches this GAP theory - this is particularly a dispensationalist doctrine. Confusing this has led many to seek alternative views, such as the errors of preterism.

I just was going back through this thread and noticed this post I seemingly overlooked, and am sorry for not getting back to you.

No sir, I do not believe in a GAP as it were which many attribute to the seventieth week of Daniel just because the seventieth week of Daniel continued to be all blessings to Israel; not the time of desolations or tribulation described in Daniel 9:27. I would though agree on the term "A last week" or something of that nature to describe it.

 

[Tri Unity]

The seventieth week of Daniel was complete in forty AD.

It would seem we agree on these ideas, although I do not subscribe to Scofield's dispensations. Yes, the Jews have returned to their land; yet I believe it is in preperation of their punishment from God which is to be witnessed by the entire world. "Then they will know that I the Lord have done these things". (Ezekiel 13:14, etc).

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

I believe the story that opens John 8 also has a allegorical Prophetic significance, I think it likely occurred on the Shemini Atzeret, the morning following Chapter 7's ending. Israel is sometimes represented as an Adulteress, I believe the message for those who sought to condemn this Adulteress is the same for those who condemn Israel for rejecting Yeshua at his first Advent.

 

[Hitch]

I believe the story that opens John 8 also has a allegorical Prophetic significance, I think it likely occurred on the Shemini Atzeret, the morning following Chapter 7's ending. Israel is sometimes represented as an Adulteress, I believe the message for those who sought to condemn this Adulteress is the same for those who condemn Israel for rejecting Yeshua at his first Advent.

Nonsense.

 

[reba]

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Some how the picture i get from reading this is not the same one i get from reading a map of todays Israel.

Have they returned? If you live in California then spend some time in Washington and then you return do you return to Nevada?

 

[Tri Unity]

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Some how the picture i get from reading this is not the same one i get from reading a map of todays Israel.

Have they returned? If you live in California then spend some time in Washington and then you return do you return to Nevada?

The Israelites never lived in this "promised" land mass; they lived where Israel is currently located, as is seen by the land inheritance given in Joshua, etc.

The land mass mentioned to Abraham is the same dimensions of the New Jerusalem, and it was promised to the true heirs of Abraham in the new earth. It is the same "city" which Abraham looked for (Hebrews 11:10) "with firm foundations, whose architect and builder is God." The promise was given to Abraham, and he and his seed will still receive it as promised.

 

[Hitch]

The Israelites never lived in this "promised" land mass; they lived where Israel is currently located, as is seen by the land inheritance given in Joshua, etc.

The land mass mentioned to Abraham is the same dimensions of the New Jerusalem, and it was promised to the true heirs of Abraham in the new earth. It is the same "city" which Abraham looked for (Hebrews 11:10) "with firm foundations, whose architect and builder is God." The promise was given to Abraham, and he and his seed will still receive it as promised.

And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

The Israelites never lived in this "promised" land mass;

Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry. 21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Their return is a process, that started in 1948 (Before actually) many more steps have been happening since, sometimes steps back occur to like the Gazza put out in 2005 (Which is in Ezekiel).

The restoration will be complete after the temporary Spiritual Blindness sis lifted (Romans 11) and they collectively accept Yeshua as their Messiah triggering Yeshua return (Hosea 5:15).