question for all christians

[francisdesales]

if we can walk away then our salvation isnt all that secure! we can come and go as we please in the Lord. if that's the case, then we arent probably saved in the first place.

so. francisdales, a man or woman is so holy upon salvation that will never give in to temptation, and get hooked in to some sin, and need a rebuking?

i know that youre arent sugessting that we just sin without thinking about it first all the time.

The salvation that is secure is being saved from sin upon being born from above. We have been freed from the yoke of sin, that is secure. However, this does not mean we can choose to return to the yoke. Being freed from sin is a matter of faith, not a scientific fact. God's Scriptures assure us that Christ's work was indeed for US. We are freed when we die with Him and arise during Baptism.

The problem is when people take this beyond the promises of God to say He will PREVENT us from sinning or falling into sin where we cannot return to the vomit of our former lives. Not so. We can, and we see it happen today, formerly devout Christians who fall away from faith. As long as we don't make a shipwreck of our faith, we are secure by faith that God will bring us to eternal life.

Does a man need to be absolutely holy to enter heaven? No, of course not, we have a powerful Advocate in Heaven, Jesus Christ, who CONTINUES to intercede for you and I. First John gives us that assurance - that if we sin, we can turn to Christ and ask for repentance again.

God knows we will not perfectly face temptations. But He does give us the grace to return to Him when we fail. The "willing" sinner is less likely to return because HE CHOSE to sin. Devout Christians do not, or very rarely.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

First...it is impossible.

No, it's not. Look around, there are a lot of "saved Christians" who are the worse of sinners and have actively left any faith in God behind.

Second...if it were possible, Christ would be put to open shame.

From the SINNER'S point of view, yes... The willful sinner doesn't CARE what Jesus did on the cross.
That's a fact for those who leave.

His days of shame are finished.

JESUS is not shamed! In the eyes of the sinner, Jesus is shamed because the sinner doesn't take Jesus seriously, nor Christ's work. So to this sinner, Jesus doesn't matter. He is shamed. But not in actuality. Just in the deluded person's mind who puts aside Christ.

Third..."though we thus speak", we are persuaded better things because of that which "accompany salvation".

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

This is rhetoric, not absolute. It's like me saying "it's impossible to kick a 70 yard field goal in football". Rhetorically, I'd be correct, no one has done it, it is "impossible'. However, records are made to be broken. The idea of such talk is to provide faith to a Christian community besieged by the outside world, by disbelief and those who live for the day.

We have already discussed Scriptures speaking of people leaving behind their enlightened status and returning to a life of sin, worse than before being freed of it - since now they can "see" when they were once blind. Experience speaks of the possibility, as well.

Clearly, you are misinterpreting Scriptures to deny real-life experience and other Scriptures to maintain your "faith". Such is not necessary. Remain in Christ and you will be saved for heaven.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "No, it's not. Look around, there are a lot of "saved Christians" who are the worse of sinners and have actively left any faith in God behind."

Hi francis

Have you not taken into consideration that they are false brethren to begin with ?

 

[glorydaz]

Quote francis: "No, it's not. Look around, there are a lot of "saved Christians" who are the worse of sinners and have actively left any faith in God behind."

Hi francis

Have you not taken into consideration that they are false brethren to begin with ?

It seems to be something some won't even consider. However when they claim... didn't I do such and such in your name, He will say, "I never knew you". If Jesus says that, we certainly should believe Him.

Those "saved Christians" who are the worst sinners and left "any" faith in God behind, had never experieced the faith unto salvation. Since it's God and God alone that sees the heart of man, I'm surprised man falls so easily into the assumption that everyone claiming to be saved is in fact saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Second...if it were possible, Christ would be put to open shame.

From the SINNER'S point of view, yes... The willful sinner doesn't CARE what Jesus did on the cross.
That's a fact for those who leave.

His days of shame are finished.

JESUS is not shamed! In the eyes of the sinner, Jesus is shamed because the sinner doesn't take Jesus seriously, nor Christ's work. So to this sinner, Jesus doesn't matter. He is shamed. But not in actuality. Just in the deluded person's mind who puts aside Christ.

Third..."though we thus speak", we are persuaded better things because of that which "accompany salvation".

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

This is rhetoric, not absolute. It's like me saying "it's impossible to kick a 70 yard field goal in football". Rhetorically, I'd be correct, no one has done it, it is "impossible'. However, records are made to be broken. The idea of such talk is to provide faith to a Christian community besieged by the outside world, by disbelief and those who live for the day.

We have already discussed Scriptures speaking of people leaving behind their enlightened status and returning to a life of sin, worse than before being freed of it - since now they can "see" when they were once blind. Experience speaks of the possibility, as well.

Clearly, you are misinterpreting Scriptures to deny real-life experience and other Scriptures to maintain your "faith". Such is not necessary. Remain in Christ and you will be saved for heaven.

Regards

The verse say Christ would be put to "open shame"...that is not a shame in the sight of the deluded sinner. It's open for all to see. Therefore, it is impossible.

 

[jasoncran]

.
jasoncran

Sorry, I think you misunderstood. None of the threads on Movies & TV Reviews have been locked. I meant it as a compliment. No one has posted for almost a week on that board. You kept after them until they took their toys and went home. I think you frustrated them with your question of how far are we to take the judging of movies as an expression of antiChrist. Maybe we ought start a thread there on the proper way to critique a movie. The DVD for Avatar is supposed to come out next month. I can't wait to see it again to see what I missed the first time.

What do you think about the rest of my post that is in response to your question about sin?

JamesG

i will address this part on avatar first, i watched a pirated version while en route to national guard training.

 

[jasoncran]

james g, the internal witness, are you saying that is the only way we know we are saved?

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This does not say it is impossible to fall away- it also does not say it is impossible to bring him to an open shame, it says

For it is impossible (for those who have been enlightened etc...) If they fall away- TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTANCE.- What is impossible is renewing these people to repentance- why?

SEEING they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

One cannot say it is impossible for these people to fall away because we are told elsewhere they have and will again.

 

[Cornelius]

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This does not say it is impossible to fall away- it also does not say it is impossible to bring him to an open shame, it says

For it is impossible (for those who have been enlightened etc...) If they fall away- TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTANCE.- What is impossible is renewing these people to repentance- why?

SEEING they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

One cannot say it is impossible for these people to fall away because we are told elsewhere they have and will again.

Amen.

"Falling away" from something means that you first have to be part of it. We cannot fall away from something that we have no part in. I cannot fall away from the membership of the Country Club, because I am not a member there

God speak of the falling away from the church. 2Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,


We are also told that we can indeed fall away from God and that we must take heed . We see the reason for falling away from God is unbelief. Unbelief in what He promises. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you (speaking to Christians) an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

 

[mutzrein]

Amen.

"Falling away" from something means that you first have to be part of it. We cannot fall away from something that we have no part in. I cannot fall away from the membership of the Country Club, because I am not a member there

God speak of the falling away from the church. 2Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,


We are also told that we can indeed fall away from God and that we must take heed . We see the reason for falling away from God is unbelief. Unbelief in what He promises. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you (speaking to Christians) an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

And 'amen' from me too.

This 'unbelief' is a lack of faith - which already, has been pointed out to be 'sin'.

 

[glorydaz]

Those who "fall away" or "for a while believe" are not those who have been born again...raised into "newness of life". I'm pretty sure I've heard many on this board say there is "belief" and then there is "belief" for even the devils believe.

There must first be something to fall away from???????
Then there must first be something to go out from, I guess, or to depart from. That in no way means a person has been saved...or they NO DOUBT would have continued.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

So in this verse, we have those who "when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no root, which for a while believe" and then fall away. That's known as jailhouse religion. :yes Is there any mention of faith? Have they not heard the gospel message with joy for a time and find the price too high to pay? They turn back because the gate is too narrow. If you think everyone who hears the good news and responds for awhile are saved then I'm not surprised you think people can become "unsaved". God sees the heart of man...He knows who are His and He knows who spring up but aren't yet drawing sustenance from the root. He will say in that day, "I never knew you". And He won't be lying or stretching the point when He says it.

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

There are good reasons the saints persevere, besides the power of God to keep His own...here's just one of them.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[Cornelius]

Amen.

"Falling away" from something means that you first have to be part of it. We cannot fall away from something that we have no part in. I cannot fall away from the membership of the Country Club, because I am not a member there

God speak of the falling away from the church. 2Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,


We are also told that we can indeed fall away from God and that we must take heed . We see the reason for falling away from God is unbelief. Unbelief in what He promises. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you (speaking to Christians) an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

And 'amen' from me too.

This 'unbelief' is a lack of faith - which already, has been pointed out to be 'sin'.

Right. We have already seen that although the Israelites had faith in God (like most Christians claim) they failed to have faith in what He promised. THAT was their sin.

We as Christians too might believe IN God, but that does not mean we believe Him. If we try this verse on people we quickly see that they believe IN God, but they do not believe this verse to be true:1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now try and tell Christians that they have been healed at the cross and see what happens. They refuse to believe it and run to their doctrines and hide.Its because it takes faith in what God SAID, to enter into His rest. No faith = no rest=no entering into the promises. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

God said: You will enter the promised land
They said: We cannot , there are giants.
Then they died. They "fell away"

 

[Cornelius]

Those who "fall away" or "for a while believe" are not those who have been born again...raised into "newness of life". I'm pretty sure I've heard many on this board say there is "belief" and then there is "belief" for even the devils believe.

There must first be something to fall away from???????
Then there must first be something to go out from, I guess, or to depart from. That in no way means a person has been saved...or they NO DOUBT would have continued.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Its because salvation is not a one-time event like many think it is.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Even though this is speaking of tribulation, it is clear that those who will not endure to the end will not be saved. Salvation is Christ. We have to die to self , if Christ has to live in us.

We are being saved all the time. Being saved from the curse, being saved from sickness, need, bondage etc. That is why many are called to manifest Christ, but in the end few are chosen. Only those are chosen who bear fruit: thirty, sixty and a hundred fold.

 

[glorydaz]

Right. We have already seen that although the Israelites had faith in God (like most Christians claim) they failed to have faith in what He promised. THAT was their sin.

We as Christians too might believe IN God, but that does not mean we believe Him. If we try this verse on people we quickly see that they believe IN God, but they do not believe this verse to be true:1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now try and tell Christians that they have been healed at the cross and see what happens. They refuse to believe it and run to their doctrines and hide.Its because it takes faith in what God SAID, to enter into His rest. No faith = no rest=no entering into the promises. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It isn't a question of failing to believe the promises...it's knowing what the promises are talking about and not insisting such a one as this is referring to being made sinless or to physical healing.

We're healed of our sins and iniquities. I do, indeed, believe that promise. To insist one takes on your interpretation of such verses to be a lack of faith is a little much. It's one thing to believe something from the Word and it's quite another to say those who don't agree with your interpretation have a lack of faith.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[glorydaz]

Those who "fall away" or "for a while believe" are not those who have been born again...raised into "newness of life". I'm pretty sure I've heard many on this board say there is "belief" and then there is "belief" for even the devils believe.

There must first be something to fall away from???????
Then there must first be something to go out from, I guess, or to depart from. That in no way means a person has been saved...or they NO DOUBT would have continued.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Its because salvation is not a one-time event like many think it is.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Even though this is speaking of tribulation, it is clear that those who will not endure to the end will not be saved. Salvation is Christ. We have to die to self , if Christ has to live in us.

We are being saved all the time. Being saved from the curse, being saved from sickness, need, bondage etc. That is why many are called to manifest Christ, but in the end few are chosen. Only those are chosen who bear fruit: thirty, sixty and a hundred fold.

I disagree. We are given eternal life when we're born again of the Spirit. It does seem it's pointless discussing this with you, though. I can only thank the Lord He has given me assurance of my salvation. I'm at peace..and at rest, which is what He's promised. For some strange reason, I believe Him when He said He will never leave nor forsake me. If I were to stumble and fall, and He forsook me, He'd have been lying, and I just won't buy that one.

 

[Adstar]

Also i would like to understand you when you talk about sin as being a mistake?

Could you give an example of a sin done by mistake?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

unknowingly, as you broke the law without knowing the law said that was illegal. that is sin

Ok so if i have not read somewhere that it is wrong to kill, then by your logic it would not be sin if i went out and killed someone. The point i am trying to say is that a Law does not have to be written or verbally communicated for someone to know something is wrong. If we have a conscience then we can know something is bad even if we where never told it was bad. So the conscience is the Law to those who have not heard or read the Law. So therefore to have done something "unknowingly" requires that the person was never told the Law and that their conscience never alerted them to it either.

on being willful.
knowing something that is illegal or a sin, ie lie and yet continue to lie anyway. is that not deleberately sinning.

Yes deliberate but it may or may not be wilful. Once again a person might lie in court to protect themselves from punishment. In that moment fear of punishment causes a moment of weakness ( lack of courage) and they commit the sin. Afterwards they feel the guilt of there actions.

Wilful sin to me is an attitude that one has when they sin both deliberately and without regret.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cornelius]

After our spirit is saved, our soul must be saved. Our soul or mind is not in line with the Word of God and must come into line Rom 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
We must come to have the mind of Christ. First we have it by faith and then we must have it by manifestation.

Without these first two , we will not be able to get the glorified body.

The age old question about "Oh but what about the man on the cross, he did go to heaven !"
Yes he did. He walked 100% in the knowledge he had for the amount of time he had Luk 12:48 ... And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required......

To us has been given more. We have more time to search out the will of God and to come into the fullness pf Christ.

God's covenant to us is conditional. Its conditional , just like His covenant with Israel was conditional. As we know: He broke that covenant with them. Most of them did NOT enter, even though He promised them they would. Not even Moses entered ! God is this very God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is still the same. He is holy. He placed conditions in the new covenant as well.

Men has turned it into a circus and preach that salvation is a line you step over. The result is the church of today: Unholy, in unbelief, running after any and every doctrine, powerless to even pray for the common cold let alone raise the dead. Its this doctrine that has robbed God's people and made them complacent and "at peace".

I love God's people and it hurts to see how many of them are on their way to hell, because they fell for a doctrine of demons.

 

[Cornelius]

It isn't a question of failing to believe the promises...it's knowing what the promises are talking about and not insisting such a one as this is referring to being made sinless or to physical healing.

We're healed of our sins and iniquities. I do, indeed, believe that promise. To insist one takes on your interpretation of such verses to be a lack of faith is a little much. It's one thing to believe something from the Word and it's quite another to say those who don't agree with your interpretation have a lack of faith.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Exactly. you are proving my point. You have just "changed" the words of Scripture so that you are free to "interpret" them. You have changed "healing" into "not physical".In fact you left out physical healing totally, even though it clearly speaks of physical healing WITHOUT interpretation. Why ?: you have been taught to believe it and now you do not even question it. Just like a Catholic, who can never see the reality of the bread in communion. They believe and always will believe it magically changes into Jesus. Tell them its idolatry and see what happens.

 

[francisdesales]

Those who "fall away" or "for a while believe" are not those who have been born again...raised into "newness of life". I'm pretty sure I've heard many on this board say there is "belief" and then there is "belief" for even the devils believe.

Maybe you are confused about what it means to be "born from above"... Let's look at this from another angle.

Being born is a one time event. It is not ongoing. Correct?

It is being born from above. We do nothing to bring it about. Correct?

Finally, it is an invisible moment - we don't SEE the "birth", we only see the immediate results and hear the declaration from God's Church that such has been born from above. Correct?

Now, this means that by faith, ALL who approach Baptism with the intent to be linked with the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, who desire to be immersed into His death and resurrection, are indeed BORN FROM ABOVE. If at that moment, a person has a true desire, moved by the Spirit, then Mother Church brings forth another child out of the waters into new life. That is a one-moment event that happens EVERY TIME - otherwise, it NEVER happens...

The problem is that OSAS questions this Scriptural notion. It wonders if a birth EVER happened in a case by case basis. It takes judging fellow Christians to the extreme - "are they even CHRISTIANS TO BEGIN WITH???"

Now, since we are dealing with the invisible one-time moment, we take it upon faith that EVERY such Baptism is indeed a birth from above. How could you prove it otherwise? The OSAS line of reasoning calls into doubt EVERY "born from above" moment, pending further review of one's ENTIRE life... ENTIRE. Because if one falls away TWENTY YEARS LATER, the rejoinder will be the silly comment "he never was saved to begin with". Never mind all those works done in Christ (since we can do nothing good without Him), they never happened, in the deluded OSAS mindset.

Where OSAS falls short of the mark is that it confuses the current FRUIT with the past born again moment. This is faulty logic. Incredibly so. And they refuse to see it. The seed of the fruit is planted by Christ, not the follower of Christ. We do not know what the soil will bear, however. This is not dependent upon the planting, but upon the soil. Thus, it is faulty logic to look at the lack of fruit today and conclude that there NEVER was a planting. We don't know if the seed will bear fruit only in the distant future. We don't know if the seed ever will bear fruit, because of a falling away (planted in bad soil).

As such, the OSAS error "he never was saved to begin with" calls into question EVERY born from above moment, since we cannot scientifically see this one-time event, nor are they taking into account the soil where the seed falls.

That a tree does not bear fruit does not mean it never was planted...

As to the other comment, about "false brethern", they are false to their own calling, to the gift once given. Not that the gift was never given. They are false to themselves and their own promises. By faith, we believe that ALL brothers born by Baptism are our brothers. They are false to their calling, if they fall away.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It isn't a question of failing to believe the promises...it's knowing what the promises are talking about and not insisting such a one as this is referring to being made sinless or to physical healing.

We're healed of our sins and iniquities. I do, indeed, believe that promise. To insist one takes on your interpretation of such verses to be a lack of faith is a little much. It's one thing to believe something from the Word and it's quite another to say those who don't agree with your interpretation have a lack of faith.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Exactly. you are proving my point. You have just "changed" the words of Scripture so that you are free to "interpret" them. You have changed "healing" into "not physical".In fact you left out physical healing totally, even though it clearly speaks of physical healing WITHOUT interpretation. Why ?: you have been taught to believe it and now you do not even question it. Just like a Catholic, who can never see the reality of the bread in communion. They believe and always will believe it magically changes into Jesus. Tell them its idolatry and see what happens.

You often speak words of wisdom, Cornelius, but perhaps you should heed your own advise on changing the Words of Sacred Scriptures.

Jesus said the bread that He will give is His flesh, not His Word, as you so haphazardly attempt to state in your related thread you started. You even quoted the pertinent Scriptures: John 6:51, and then attempted to circumvent the Word of God with your tradition of men.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

clearly, the context doesn't allow ANY other interpretation. The Jews reaction and Jesus counter-reaction prove it beyond doubt. What is at issue here is the lack of faith in believing what God said He would do.

As to magic, perhaps you would like to discuss how we will magically go to heaven upon death, since not a single person we know has died and come back in the flesh to relate this experience to us. We believe in the Real Presence AND in Heaven by an act of faith, not by sight.

Regards