question for all christians

[Cornelius]

I don't need a lecture from you

Brother, I can see that our conversations are not edifying you and as such maybe we should not be discussing matters anymore. I really do not like it when I see somebody's blood-pressure rise, because I am talking to them. I am sure you feel the same.

Its not edifying anybody 2Ti 2:23 But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. If we cannot talk in a civil manner, then we sin and its best if we avoid talking.

So, I do not want to cause you stress. I do not believe the way you do, not because I have some evil intent. I simply see things differently. We cannot attack somebody into our view.We cannot force them. We enter knowledge by God's grace and we are all at different stages of our walk. We are not to separate (even in our hearts) from a brother because of doctrinal differences.

God gives grace and through that grace we "see" and understand. Without that grace, we would be nothing and we would be blind like the Pharisees. We must be gracious if we want grace because we reap what we sow.

I have tried to just post what I believe without making it personally about you. So when you see me post in future, first know this: Its not about you. and I am also not posting with a heart that rejoices in a debate where the "best man wins". I have no interest in me being anything, the Lord knows that.
So forgive me if I have caused you stress, its not my intention.

blessings
C

 

[glorydaz]

Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I say?

I never once said I tell someone they never had Christ to begin with...that isn't my business.

Why are you being obtuse???

Look in the mirror....I said I have never "told someone" they aren't saved or were never saved. That is not my judgment to make. I said it's obviously a fact because the Lord has told us He never knew some who claim they are His.

You HAVE INDEED said this. You even quote Matthew's Gospel, "I never knew you" to "prove" your point - that those who do not bear fruit never had the seed planted. EVER!!!

That's the entire premise of OSAS. If we look at someone's fruit of late, we can determine whether there was EVER a seed planted - whether he was EVER born from above. You used "I never knew you" as your proof text. Thus, a miracle worker can end up "never knowing Jesus to begin with"...

You have a poor understanding of OSAS as you prove with every post you make. Not every "miracle worker" is of the Lord. Look at pharoah's sorcerers. :nag To say nothing of the fact that lots of people "think" they do things they never actually do. Look at the television preachers and you'll see some "miracles" that are phonier than a two-dollar bill. Where is your discernment?

Let's ignore everything else that follows and look at this, and you'll see what I was first attempting to do with my definition of being born from above. Then, you'll see why you are confusing the planting of the seed (being born from above) with the fruit (good works).

Being born from above is a one time event, correct?
A seed was planted, correct?
Do YOU KNOW WHEN THE SEED WILL GERMINATE?
Does a tree ALWAYS bear good fruit in season? Is it cut down immediately or is it given time to bear fruit?

Then why are you judging whether someone "really" was born from above (the term is "from above, not "again", Jesus corrected Nicodemus on that word.) because as of right now, they are going through a difficult growing period, a time of spiritual famine, and is in need of more care and attention?

When a seed has been planted, someone has been born from above. We know from the parable of the sower and the seed that ALL seeds do not necessarily bear good fruit in every season - and that some do indeed fall away and 'die'.

OSAS doesn't take this into account, and so is false.

You should reread because your reasoning is faulty....There are three that hear the Word...one understandeth it not, one has a stony heart and has NO ROOT, and one hears, but the Word is choked (has not forsaken the world). Then we have the one that received the seed into good ground...hears the Word, and understands, and bears fruit. You may claim those are all saved, but they aren't, no matter how much you insist they are. Only the one which bears fruit is saved.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[glorydaz]

Nor does it mean men go around with the "gift" of healing. The Lord heals when He has mercy and hears our prayers.

1 Cor 12:8For to one is given the word of (M)wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

Yeah, we see so many with the gift of miracles, today, don't we? As I said, there are many believers who see the sign gifts have ceased. We no longer see people speaking a word of prophecy with 100% accuracy, either. We do see God healing in answer to prayer. We can argue about the sign gifts until the cows come home, but you'll still hold your views, and I'll still hold mine.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't need a lecture from you

Brother, I can see that our conversations are not edifying you and as such maybe we should not be discussing matters anymore. I really do not like it when I see somebody's blood-pressure rise, because I am talking to them. I am sure you feel the same.


So, I do not want to cause you stress. I do not believe the way you do, not because I have some evil intent. I simply see things differently. We cannot attack somebody into our view.We cannot force them. We enter knowledge by God's grace and we are all at different stages of our walk. We are not to separate (even in our hearts) from a brother because of doctrinal differences.

So forgive me if I have caused you stress, its not my intention.

blessings
C

I'm not the least bit stressed, although I'm sure you'd like to think so. I believe in speaking my mind, just like you do. By saying I don't need lectures from you is hardly a matter for stress...It's a fact.

I'm dismayed when I see you claiming people are on their way to hell when they disagree with your doctrine. I've been seeing it more and more as the days go by, and it is as far from edifying as one can get. Judgmentalism and self-righteousness are getting so out-of-hand, not just on this thread, but on many of them. We can defend the security of the believer with scripture after scripture and we're called sinners bound for hell who make excuse for sin. That's just ridiculous. The attacks aren't coming from the defense side of the table, so perhaps you should attempt to chill out on the accusations and I wouldn't find it necessary to rebuke you for the lectures. Hell is not my destination, and I can do no less than stand firmly on the promises of God. They are what I defend...not the doubt and the fear and the condemnation that comes like fiery darts from the enemy instead of a brother.

 

[Cornelius]

1 Cor 12:8For to one is given the word of (M)wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

Amen Darcy We do indeed see these gifts operating in the body of Christ. We do see that some gifts, like prophecy differ from the Old Testament prophets. God tells us that the New Testament people with prophetic gifts prophesy in part. That means they are not perfectly speaking THE WORD of the Lord, like they use to do 1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; That is why we do not stone our prophets these days if they get it wrong

There is a time coming when Christ who is perfect, will manifest in His people. At that time imperfection will pass away and we will be walking in perfection and fullness regarding the gifts.
We know this, because Paul teaches us that , "that which is in part " (imperfection) shall be done away.


1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

glrydaz,

we must take all scripture together. I already showed how when we say we ARE saved, we are speaking by faith in what we have been promised but what we are doing just that- walking IN FAITH OF.

FAITH is what is not yet seen. When we have it we no longer walk in faith of it, we have it and are no more waiting for it.


mystery it is not a contridiction. The promise of God keeping us is to those who will walk by faith and abide in Christ. There are no promises outside of Christ except of wrath

 

[Mysteryman]

glrydaz,

we must take all scripture together. I already showed how when we say we ARE saved, we are speaking by faith in what we have been promised but what we are doing just that- walking IN FAITH OF.

FAITH is what is not yet seen. When we have it we no longer walk in faith of it, we have it and are no more waiting for it.


mystery it is not a contridiction. The promise of God keeping us is to those who will walk by faith and abide in Christ. There are no promises outside of Christ except of wrath

Hi

If he is going to keep us, then he is going to keep us ! He will not cut you off from salvation, because he is going to keep us - period !

There is no "if" ! ---- He will !

 

[Cornelius]

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed, none of these things can separate us from the love of God. There is only thing that can and it is mentioned here:Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

That is correct. The condition to be kept by God is faith. Not just faith in God, but also faith in what He has spoken to us through His promises. Let us learn to trust in what Hod has promised us, so that we will be found to be in faith, when He returns.

Believe God...do not just believe IN Him.

 

[glorydaz]

glrydaz,

we must take all scripture together. I already showed how when we say we ARE saved, we are speaking by faith in what we have been promised but what we are doing just that- walking IN FAITH OF.

FAITH is what is not yet seen. When we have it we no longer walk in faith of it, we have it and are no more waiting for it.


mystery it is not a contridiction. The promise of God keeping us is to those who will walk by faith and abide in Christ. There are no promises outside of Christ except of wrath

And I've already shown it is the Father's will that Jesus will lose NONE the Father has given Him.
We are saved by the faith of Jesus...although our faith may waver, His never does. Our salvation will be manifest (clearly shown) when Jesus returns. A believer's hope is not a "I sure hope so". The Biblical definition of hope is "confident expectation," a firm assurance regarding things that are unclear and unknown ...not the worldly definiton of wishful thinking.

This is speaking of our future glory. It does not yet "appear" what we shall be, but we are the sons of God "now".

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[archangel_300]

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed, none of these things can separate us from the love of God. There is only thing that can and it is mentioned here:Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

That is correct. The condition to be kept by God is faith. Not just faith in God, but also faith in what He has spoken to us through His promises. Let us learn to trust in what Hod has promised us, so that we will be found to be in faith, when He returns.

Believe God...do not just believe IN Him.

Hi Cornelius,

Yeah but then how do you reconcile that with Romans 11?

Romans 11:1-6 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life�[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.†5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Many of the Israelites fell because of unbelief and you are saying they "lost their salvation".
How about the remnant of Israel that did not fall? How come they did not lose their salvation along with the rest?

Do I lose my salvation because I fall into disbelief? Or does God keep me in the faith so I won't lose it? Which one is it?

 

[Mysteryman]

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed, none of these things can separate us from the love of God. There is only thing that can and it is mentioned here:Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

That is correct. The condition to be kept by God is faith. Not just faith in God, but also faith in what He has spoken to us through His promises. Let us learn to trust in what Hod has promised us, so that we will be found to be in faith, when He returns.

Believe God...do not just believe IN Him.

Hi C.

You are not a OSAS believer. And as such, do not believe that God will keep you , unless you keep yourself. You continue to use scripture that is out of context and subject matter when it comes to one's salvation !

Hebrews 3:12 is not talking about one's salvation ! It is talking about entering into God's rest. If you read the full context, which includes the rest of chapter 3 and chapter 4 of Hebrews. With open eyes, you will see that this is what it is talking about.

In order to loose one's salvation, God would have to take one's name out of the book of life. Since chapter 3 and 4 is setting an example for us. We should follow the example to the letter. And not make assumptions that this is talking about one's salvation, when it is not !

They did not enter into the promise land because of their harden hearts, and because of unbelief. Which is what I am seeing from you by your replies pertaining to one's salvation. Hebrews 4:1 is talking about the promises of God, pertaining to his rest. When we are in his rest, we have confidence, and no fear. By unbelief, one will not receive the profit of our salvation < Hebrews 4:2. The profit is our rewards.

Hebrews 4:3 is talking about entering into his rest. And says - "although the works were finished " < quote - end quote !

Our rewards are based upon our faith, and our rewards are a part of the inheritance promised by God.

You need to get off of this one can loose their salvation kick. It shows a lack of faith, instead of faith applied.

Hebrews 4:7 - "Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David , To day , after so long a time ; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts"

Hebrews 4:8 - "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day"

Hebrews 4:9 - "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God"

Hebrews 4:10 - "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his"

In time of need , to help one with the inheritance of their salvation, they should do as it says in Hebrews 4:16 - "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need"

 

[DarcyLu]

Yeah, we see so many with the gift of miracles, today, don't we? As I said, there are many believers who see the sign gifts have ceased. We no longer see people speaking a word of prophecy with 100% accuracy, either. We do see God healing in answer to prayer. We can argue about the sign gifts until the cows come home, but you'll still hold your views, and I'll still hold mine.

hi glory, do you believe the gifts have ceased? just curious.
we have had this conversation before and my answer is YES, we see miracles today.
my understanding is there are 2 kinds of prophecy, one is the actual Prophet, who predicts happenings. the other one is the gift of prophecy which is to edify, comfort and exhort. i have not actually met a Prophet but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
if these gifts don't exist today, then i do not know why God would have it written in His Word for all believers to see and why He would tell us to pray and ask for them..

 

[glorydaz]

The children of Israel did not enter in because of unbelief...the warnings from Hebrews were to remind them (us), and rescue us from the curse spoken of in Gal. 3:10.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Because man's sinful human heart always stands ready to embrace legalism, and put in place a faith based on our own conformity to rules, regulations and rituals, he is in dire need of such a warning. True faith rests in Jesus Christ...not our own efforts to do anything. We are never to believe in ourselves, but in Him alone.

Those who "turn back" in unbelief are those who have never entered into His rest. They think they have to add something to Christ's work. It is never Christ plus something else...we're commanded by God to believe in Jesus Christ...the only sacrifice for our sins. Do we ignore so great a salvation...thinking there is something better..something more we need to do? There is no additional revelation than Christ... no adding our own performance to gain or maintain our salvation. We are denying Christ and His work when we do such. That is the lack of faith (unbelief) that keeps one from entering into His rest.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, we see so many with the gift of miracles, today, don't we? As I said, there are many believers who see the sign gifts have ceased. We no longer see people speaking a word of prophecy with 100% accuracy, either. We do see God healing in answer to prayer. We can argue about the sign gifts until the cows come home, but you'll still hold your views, and I'll still hold mine.

hi glory, do you believe the gifts have ceased? just curious.
we have had this conversation before and my answer is YES, we see miracles today.
my understanding is there are 2 kinds of prophecy, one is the actual Prophet, who predicts happenings. the other one is the gift of prophecy which is to edify, comfort and exhort. i have not actually met a Prophet but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
if these gifts don't exist today, then i do not know why God would have it written in His Word for all believers to see and why He would tell us to pray and ask for them..

I believe the sign gifts have ceased...they were given because the Jews required a sign.

I do, though, believe in all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We see them alive and well amongst the believers today.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

What are the " sign gifts" that are no longer needed today?

 

[DarcyLu]

I believe the sign gifts have ceased...they were given because the Jews required a sign.

I do, though, believe in all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We see them alive and well amongst the believers today.

i am trying to understand what you are saying, glory, i agree the jews asked for a sign but then Jesus told them they would only get one sign and that was the sign of Jonah.
Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

if a person has the gift of healing today, it seems we both agree on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and they heal, what is that? Is it not a sign?
what about the gift of faith? if a person prays in faith for something and they receive it, is that not a sign, too?
God is alive and active in us, but it seems you are saying He can not show us this fact with any signs. That He is incapable of showing His glory today, if I am misunderstanding you, then please forgive me, it just seems this is what you are saying.

 

[archangel_300]

I personally lean towards what glory has mentioned.

Although I don't doubt that the Holy Spirit can truly work a miracle in this world today. I'm skeptical that he still does in the same manner as he did before the Bible was complete. Anything that defies the laws that God created that govern this universe would be extremely rare if there are any that happen at all in todays world. I think that signs and wonders were necessary before the Bible was complete in order to authenticate that the messenger and the message he brings is from God. For instance what seperates Jesus from a nutcase or a messenger of Satan? The fact that He was confirmed with signs and wonders that defied the laws that God created which govern this universe.

For instance we read in Matthew that John the Baptist began to seriously doubt whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

Matthew 11:1-6 Now it came to pass, when Jesus finished commanding His twelve disciples, that He departed from there to teach and to preach in their cities. 2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of[a] his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?†4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.â€

The problem I have with things such as speaking in tongues and miracle workers today is that I can't trust them. God issued a warning back to Israel in the Old Testament and I think the same can be applied today. In my own personal preference I avoid *all* kinds of signs and wonders and I'll lean on the Word of God only and alone.

Deuteronomy 13:1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

 

[DarcyLu]

The problem I have with things such as speaking in tongues and miracle workers today is that I can't trust them. God issued a warning back to Israel in the Old Testament and I think the same can be applied today. In my own personal preference I avoid *all* kinds of signs and wonders and I'll lean on the Word of God only and alone.

i hear what you are saying and if you are referring to "miracle workers" as we see on TV and those who are doing this for money and/or noteriety, then i agree. Jesus never performed miracles for any of those things and He did perform miracles as confirmation. the Word tells us that signs will follow those who believe, if what you are saying is true, then it seems the Word is contradicting itself.

simple people, everyday people who are praying for healing for their family and friends, or for other needs they may have - and their prayers are answered - how should we view this? if we see it happen, we can not deny it is from God because we may not "trust them", we do not know how God will use people.

if you avoid signs and wonders, do you ask God for things? do you receive when you ask? if you do, that is a sign. so asking and then avoiding the outcome doesn't make sense to me.

 

[archangel_300]

i hear what you are saying and if you are referring to "miracle workers" as we see on TV and those who are doing this for money and/or noteriety, then i agree. Jesus never performed miracles for any of those things and He did perform miracles as confirmation. the Word tells us that signs will follow those who believe, if what you are saying is true, then it seems the Word is contradicting itself.

simple people, everyday people who are praying for healing for their family and friends, or for other needs they may have - and their prayers are answered - how should we view this? if we see it happen, we can not deny it is from God because we may not "trust them", we do not know how God will use people.

if you avoid signs and wonders, do you ask God for things? do you receive when you ask? if you do, that is a sign. so asking and then avoiding the outcome doesn't make sense to me.

I have no doubt that God heals people today. Yes God answers prayers and there have been times in my life where I experienced something so improbable such a miraculous like coincidence it could only be described as the hand of God at work.

Yes the Word states that the signs would follow those who believe. But read Mark 16 carefully...

Mark 16:20 "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs"

The Word of God was confirmed by the signs that were mentioned in the previous verses.
Now that the Word of God is completely finished there is no more need for this.

Why would there be a need to have these types of signs?

If you believe in signs and wonders you need to be warned, Christ gives us a very grave warning in Matthew 24 and a few other places in scripture about what's going to occur right before his return.

Matthew 24:23-25 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand."

 

[glorydaz]

What are the " sign gifts" that are no longer needed today?

It isn't a question of what we need, but what God gives us through the Holy Spirit.

God heals through prayer...it's not a gift given to some man who goes around healing people, the way Jesus and the apostles did. We don't have "healers" or "miracle workers", so they aren't gifts in the church today, but were "sign gifts" during the time of the apostles. (Jews required a sign). God does many "miraculous" things in our lives, but we no longer have Moses parting the Red Sea or Jesus raising the dead....we don't have "miracle workers." There were only certain times throughout history when God defied His natural laws for a particular purpose...they were done through God's power not as gifts given by the Holy Spirit for edification of the chuch.

As far as speaking in tongues, it was a sign for unbelievers...they heard the Gospel preached in their own language. I know many believe it's a form of prayer language, and if they are edified by that it's not my business to condemn them. We're all to be a discerner of spirits, but prophets no longer predict the future they speak words of wisdom.