question for all christians

[GodspromisesRyes]

If we- after having escaped the pollutions of this world and coming to faith do not abide in faith then we will bare thorns and God himself will cut us off.

Salvation is not a one time event of faith that then secures us forever even if we leave off that faith tommorow. And those who are shown to CLEARLY have believed- have escaped the world and who fall away are shown to be those who cannot be renewed to repentance because they have crucified the Lord afresh. We are shown that it can happen and has happened.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
-IF shows it IS POSSIBLE. It does not say " if it were possible" like matthew. it just says IF it happens because it can and does happen. then it tells us what THEY DO- not what would happen if it were possible what was DOES happen.

Hbr 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:


Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

These people are the ones nigh unto being burned. we are shown all through scripture who these people are, that they do exist that it does happen. The mere fact that these people are referred too all through scripture for doing this same thing shows they do exist and it can happen.

Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;


Hbr 12:16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


Hbr 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[JamesG]

.
jasoncran

I thought you already saw the movie Avatar. I hope you enjoyed it. But it may not have been prudent to admit that the movie you watched was pirated. I wonder if it was the complete movie. I understand that some of the pirated versions are not the complete movie. If it was almost three hours long, then it probably was the complete movie.

““the internal witness, are you saying that is the only way we know we are saved?â€â€

This is a good question. It is a hard question to answer without appearing to be a complete nut job.

The Bible writers write about what is obviously a supernatural reality that includes the natural reality within it. From the perspective of the Bible writers, God is not a being in the sense that we are. God is a different kind of being. For one thing, God is eternal. For another, God is Spiritual. For another, God is all powerful. And according to Genesis, God is the creator of at least this earth, everything therein, and its immediate surroundings.

No one has ever seen God. Again according to the Bible writers. Only Jesus Christ saw God according to these writers. How can we prove to the satisfaction of our puny minds that this is a true account? It can not be proven. Some like to think that it can, but it can not. So how can we believe it to be true? The Bible writers have much to say about the matter. Paul reveals the core understanding of the New Testament writers on how we know that what we hope in is true. He claims that there are two kinds of Jews. Those who are Jews outwardly and those who are Jews inwardly. And Paul encourages us to walk according to the Spirit, something or someone, however we understand the essence of the Spirit, that is supernatural that we can not sense naturally. How can we do that except inwardly? The Spirit is something that is intangible in a natural physical sense. It must be sensed in our non-physical soul or our non-physical human spirit; again, however we understand the matter. I don’t want to go into side issues here.

Are you one of those Christians who has read the whole Bible, found it to be logical to you, and decided to believe in Jesus Christ because you found it to be mentally compelling to you? If so, you are in for a rude awakening if you ever run into someone who is more mentally astute than you. And if that person has personal charisma, and is an Atheist, you can kiss your belief in Christ good bye. That is, unless you are one of those to whom religion is like opium.

Are you one of those Christians who happened to be born into a Christian family and was taught according to one of the many Christian doctrinally distinct denominations and believe accordingly? If so, you could have been born into an Islamic family or a Buddhist family and be just as devout in those religions.

On the other hand, perhaps one day you heard about the teaching of the Bible concerning God and Jesus Christ and supernatural reality, and something within agreed with that teaching. So you embraced it. That is being “saved†through an inner sense. Through that inner sense, you were moved to believe into Jesus Christ so that you are now in Christ. And through that same inner sense you hopefully have taken to heart what Paul has encouraged to be the only way to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, through walking according to the Spirit of God.

The inner sense is the only way that we can know, not whether or not we are saved, but whether or not we are in Christ. Our salvation is not something in and of itself as is taught in Evangelical Protestantism. It is not something connected to a denomination as is taught in Roman Catholicism and in other denominations, even if only in a practical sense (the Roman Catholic Church considers itself to be the one true Church through which salvation comes, at least it did before Vatican II). Our salvation is in Jesus Christ and is a by product of being in Christ. Our salvation is only a part of the purpose of God concerning us, not the whole purpose of God.

The kind of experience that the biblical writers write about can only be an inward one simply because it is associated with a reality that is supernatural, a reality that we can not see touch smell or sense with our natural senses. And it is a reality that certainly is more than we can understand with our “great†human mental acuity.

The only things physical that are connected to this supernatural reality is the universe, something that scientists give their whole lives studying and still can not fathom, and the Bible. The Bible is used in Christianity predominantly as if it were a human tool, a human writing that must be “properly interpreted†in order to be understood. Interpretation, being an exercise of the human mind, produces only human understandings of the Bible. Such understandings are basically speculations based on certain words of the Bible. All of the various religions that we know about today are just speculations related to a human understanding of reality that generally includes a particular understanding of the supernatural. How is Christian speculation different from speculation practiced by the non-Christian world just because it is based on particular words of the Bible?

But if we realize that the Bible is the tool of God, then we don’t try to interpret the Bible. We just read the Bible for what it is. A bunch of people writing about their experiences of God and of Jesus Christ and of the supernatural reality, as moved by the Spirit of God to write down certain of those experiences. And we are simply to walk according to that same Spirit in order to understand how what they wrote applies to us. It is something inward that can not be regulated by Standards in the form of Creeds or the teachings of particular “Bible teachersâ€.

As I said, answering your question is difficult without appearing to be a complete nut job. Not to those who actually walk according to the Spirit and experience the supernatural reality that is in Christ because of it; but to those who do NOT walk according to the Spirit, and are only experiencing an outward religion. A religion that is merely a creation of their own mind, if they are taking to heart the usual encouragement to study their Bible in the way of interpretation. Or a religion created for them if they are following a particular Christian denomination. And if an outward religion is all that one has experienced, there is no frame of reference to understand an inward experience of that which is supernatural until such a one actually has an inward experience of such a reality. Atheists either have no such inward experience or have suppressed it. And unfortunately, the same is true for many, if not most, of those who call themselves Christian. The one who experiences inwardly does not have an inner sense of being saved necessarily. Such a one has an inner sense of being in Christ in whom salvation is accomplished.

It seems as if your thread on sin has become a thread on salvation. It would be better if your thread were brought back to its original purpose. As I have said, not many have a sense, an inner sense, of their own sin or their own sinfulness. But many have a mental sense of what should be sin or sinful, and they try to force what is their own mental sense on everyone else.

JamesG

 

[glorydaz]

It isn't a question of failing to believe the promises...it's knowing what the promises are talking about and not insisting such a one as this is referring to being made sinless or to physical healing.

We're healed of our sins and iniquities. I do, indeed, believe that promise. To insist one takes on your interpretation of such verses to be a lack of faith is a little much. It's one thing to believe something from the Word and it's quite another to say those who don't agree with your interpretation have a lack of faith.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Exactly. you are proving my point. You have just "changed" the words of Scripture so that you are free to "interpret" them. You have changed "healing" into "not physical".In fact you left out physical healing totally, even though it clearly speaks of physical healing WITHOUT interpretation. Why ?: you have been taught to believe it and now you do not even question it. Just like a Catholic, who can never see the reality of the bread in communion. They believe and always will believe it magically changes into Jesus. Tell them its idolatry and see what happens.

I most certainly have not "changed the words of Scripture". You are putting physical healing into portions of scripture that have nothing to do with it. There certainly are portions of scripture that speak of physical healing but the one you put forth DOES NOT. Therefore, what you accuse me of doing, you are doing yourself. Why you can't look in the mirror is more than I can say, but you'd be wise to take heed of scripture that warns of such things.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[glorydaz]

Those who "fall away" or "for a while believe" are not those who have been born again...raised into "newness of life". I'm pretty sure I've heard many on this board say there is "belief" and then there is "belief" for even the devils believe.

Maybe you are confused about what it means to be "born from above"... Let's look at this from another angle.

Being born is a one time event. It is not ongoing. Correct?

It is being born from above. We do nothing to bring it about. Correct?

Finally, it is an invisible moment - we don't SEE the "birth", we only see the immediate results and hear the declaration from God's Church that such has been born from above. Correct?

Now, this means that by faith, ALL who approach Baptism with the intent to be linked with the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, who desire to be immersed into His death and resurrection, are indeed BORN FROM ABOVE. If at that moment, a person has a true desire, moved by the Spirit, then Mother Church brings forth another child out of the waters into new life. That is a one-moment event that happens EVERY TIME - otherwise, it NEVER happens...

The problem is that OSAS questions this Scriptural notion. It wonders if a birth EVER happened in a case by case basis. It takes judging fellow Christians to the extreme - "are they even CHRISTIANS TO BEGIN WITH???"

Now, since we are dealing with the invisible one-time moment, we take it upon faith that EVERY such Baptism is indeed a birth from above. How could you prove it otherwise? The OSAS line of reasoning calls into doubt EVERY "born from above" moment, pending further review of one's ENTIRE life... ENTIRE. Because if one falls away TWENTY YEARS LATER, the rejoinder will be the silly comment "he never was saved to begin with". Never mind all those works done in Christ (since we can do nothing good without Him), they never happened, in the deluded OSAS mindset.

Where OSAS falls short of the mark is that it confuses the current FRUIT with the past born again moment. This is faulty logic. Incredibly so. And they refuse to see it. The seed of the fruit is planted by Christ, not the follower of Christ. We do not know what the soil will bear, however. This is not dependent upon the planting, but upon the soil. Thus, it is faulty logic to look at the lack of fruit today and conclude that there NEVER was a planting. We don't know if the seed will bear fruit only in the distant future. We don't know if the seed ever will bear fruit, because of a falling away (planted in bad soil).

As such, the OSAS error "he never was saved to begin with" calls into question EVERY born from above moment, since we cannot scientifically see this one-time event, nor are they taking into account the soil where the seed falls.

That a tree does not bear fruit does not mean it never was planted...

As to the other comment, about "false brethern", they are false to their own calling, to the gift once given. Not that the gift was never given. They are false to themselves and their own promises. By faith, we believe that ALL brothers born by Baptism are our brothers. They are false to their calling, if they fall away.

Regards

Yes, being born again is a one time event. Actually, I don't believe it is man's place or his prerogative to say who is saved and who isn't. I don't believe man can know anyone's heart but his own. Therefore, we cannot assume someone is saved or not when they appear to be living in sin or they appear to have fallen away. To put forth a doctrine based on what we see is error. We are to base our beliefs on what the Word of God says in total.

When we are given so many clearly written promises concerning salvation, and other verses that may seem to contradict those promises, we choose to either ignore some and stand on the ones we like, or we choose to believe some and figure out what the others must be saying. If two verses seem to disagree, we know it's our understanding that is at fault. I see the promises of God as written in stone...they must be totally ignored in order to believe the others that say we can lose our salvation. I can rectify those verses with the promises. I don't have to ignore them in order to believe in God's power to save and keep those who are His.

So rather than go around claiming the saved can be lost...which requires ignoring the promises of God, I know that God alone knows who is born again of the Spirit. I know there will be some who He will say He NEVER knew...therefore, the only default position is that not all who claim to be saved are saved, indeed. Personally, I think it's wrong to be so taken up with another man's salvation. The Lord allows many people to go through all kinds of things in their lives before He calls them home. It's not my job to accuse people of sin...people aren't convicted of their sin by any man telling him he's a sinner and falling short. It's the Word of God that does that, and man merely becomes a pharisee when he points his finger at others when he has a beam (he can't see and won't admit) in his own eye.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, being born again is a one time event. Actually, I don't believe it is man's place or his prerogative to say who is saved and who isn't.

But you think it is your perogative to tell those who have fallen away that they NEVER had Christ to begin with???? This goes quite well with your invisible born again thing, so you'll NEVER know you were even saved to begin with...

Jesus came so that we could be saved, not to wonder if it was so, waiting only until the end of our lives if it really "took".

I don't believe man can know anyone's heart but his own. Therefore, we cannot assume someone is saved or not when they appear to be living in sin or they appear to have fallen away.

There you go again, confusing fruit with the planting of the seed. The entire purpose of making the salvific event tied to a visible ritual, baptism, is SO THAT WE KNOW we are saved from sin, linked with the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, Risen with Him, and freed from Sin. There is no doubt about it, if you have faith in the Word of God. Thus, we see baptism, a visible washing, and God spiritually washes said individual, saving that person from sin. Your statement yet again shows the confusion between "being saved" and "going to heaven".

Being saved is a one time event and is traceable to our Baptism. There is no need to question "whether it took or not". The seed is planted, now it is time to focus on the soil the seed was planted in on whether the fruit will be forthcoming or not. If OSAS didn't confuse the planting with the bearing of fruit, there wouldn't be such an issue.

To put forth a doctrine based on what we see is error. We are to base our beliefs on what the Word of God says in total.

To put forth a doctrine that refuses to believe what is evident is dream-land fodder...

The Sacred Scriptures put forth the sacrament of baptism as our moment of being "born from above". You question this because it is visible? That's the entire point of linking a visible action with an invisible grace - so that we KNOW, rather than guessing whether we really are saved or will remain saved or will fall away and destroy our entire concept that we were saved to begin with...

A person who THINKS he is Christian today might be delusional, because in 2026, he might swear off Jesus Christ and never return, making void the sacrifice of Christ for this man. People will see this fruit and claim "the seed was never planted". This attitude, then, means one cannot know if they EVER were saved to begin with. OSAS is lunacy and does the opposite of what it pretends to do, and unfortunately, too many people do not have the logical ability to see it for what it is, a tool of faulty preachers telling us NOT to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Making them easy prey for Satan when difficult times come.

When we are given so many clearly written promises concerning salvation,

You are confusing hte promises of salvation with the promises of heaven...

The promises of heaven are conditional throughout Sacred Scriptures. Maybe your one thousandth reading will bring that to fruition, excuse the pun... The fact of the matter remains that we are heirs to eternal life ONLY if we suffer with Christ, only if we die to self, ONLY if we obey the Will of the Father.

If, If, IF....

Only if we enter the Wedding Feast with the White Robe, a sign of our good deeds in Christ. Otherwise, you will be cast out into the night, otherwise.

Translation - this is not a "lesser reward"... Heaven and hell awaits your decision to obey God.

and other verses that may seem to contradict those promises

You got it backwards and Christians for 2000 years recognize that OSAS is a false gospel.

we choose to either ignore some and stand on the ones we like, or we choose to believe some and figure out what the others must be saying. If two verses seem to disagree, we know it's our understanding that is at fault. I see the promises of God as written in stone...

The promises to those who remain faithful. God doesn't promise that person "X" is unconditionally going to heaven. For example, liars shall not inherit the Kingdom. That is a condition. If you are a liar AFTER receiving enlightenment and knowledge about Christ, been born from above, etc., and continue to be a liar, you have broken the condition necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Simple as that.

A liar doesn't enter the Kingdom, regardless of whether he rationalizes whether it is a sin or not...

So rather than go around claiming the saved can be lost...which requires ignoring the promises of God,

Again and again, you ignore what God has actually promised. ALL men will be judged based upon their deeds in this life. For eternal life or eternal condemnation, not for lesser rewards. This is a condition.

We are saved by God's initiative - Baptism. But whether we enter into eternal life into heaven is dependent upon the fruit of the planting. You would have to ignore an incredible amount of Sacred Scriptures to deny that. Virtually every book of the NT includes this theme.

I know that God alone knows who is born again of the Spirit. I know there will be some who He will say He NEVER knew...therefore, the only default position is that not all who claim to be saved are saved, indeed.

Yet again, you are confusing being born with providing fruit. The verse you are refering to doesn't speak about being born from above. It speaks about bearing fruit.

Personally, I think it's wrong to be so taken up with another man's salvation. The Lord allows many people to go through all kinds of things in their lives before He calls them home. It's not my job to accuse people of sin...people aren't convicted of their sin by any man telling him he's a sinner and falling short. It's the Word of God that does that, and man merely becomes a pharisee when he points his finger at others when he has a beam (he can't see and won't admit) in his own eye.

And this attitude is why American Christianity has become so liberal and relative. Something is sinful only if you think it is. If you can rationalize it away, it isn't sinful...

In the Scripture you refer to, the point is NOT that pointing the finger is wrong, but that a person points the finger who is sinful themselves... Jesus time and again points the finger at evil when He sees it. The Apostles and Paul do, as well. The issue here is not to be a hypocrite, as you will NOT be able to teach with Authority if you ARE a hypocrite...

And thus, many Christians do not preach the Gospel because their works are clearly seen by others (and not good ones)

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

I most certainly have not "changed the words of Scripture". You are putting physical healing into portions of scripture that have nothing to do with it. There certainly are portions of scripture that speak of physical healing but the one you put forth DOES NOT.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

H7495
??? ???
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.

In other words : heal ! :yes

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

G2390
??????
iaomai
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively): - heal, make whole.

In other words : Heal ! :yes

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, being born again is a one time event. Actually, I don't believe it is man's place or his prerogative to say who is saved and who isn't.

But you think it is your perogative to tell those who have fallen away that they NEVER had Christ to begin with???? This goes quite well with your invisible born again thing, so you'll NEVER know you were even saved to begin with...

Jesus came so that we could be saved, not to wonder if it was so, waiting only until the end of our lives if it really "took".

I don't believe man can know anyone's heart but his own. Therefore, we cannot assume someone is saved or not when they appear to be living in sin or they appear to have fallen away.

There you go again, confusing fruit with the planting of the seed. The entire purpose of making the salvific event tied to a visible ritual, baptism, is SO THAT WE KNOW we are saved from sin, linked with the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, Risen with Him, and freed from Sin. There is no doubt about it, if you have faith in the Word of God. Thus, we see baptism, a visible washing, and God spiritually washes said individual, saving that person from sin. Your statement yet again shows the confusion between "being saved" and "going to heaven".

Being saved is a one time event and is traceable to our Baptism. There is no need to question "whether it took or not". The seed is planted, now it is time to focus on the soil the seed was planted in on whether the fruit will be forthcoming or not. If OSAS didn't confuse the planting with the bearing of fruit, there wouldn't be such an issue.

To put forth a doctrine based on what we see is error. We are to base our beliefs on what the Word of God says in total.

To put forth a doctrine that refuses to believe what is evident is dream-land fodder...

The Sacred Scriptures put forth the sacrament of baptism as our moment of being "born from above". You question this because it is visible? That's the entire point of linking a visible action with an invisible grace - so that we KNOW, rather than guessing whether we really are saved or will remain saved or will fall away and destroy our entire concept that we were saved to begin with...

A person who THINKS he is Christian today might be delusional, because in 2026, he might swear off Jesus Christ and never return, making void the sacrifice of Christ for this man. People will see this fruit and claim "the seed was never planted". This attitude, then, means one cannot know if they EVER were saved to begin with. OSAS is lunacy and does the opposite of what it pretends to do, and unfortunately, too many people do not have the logical ability to see it for what it is, a tool of faulty preachers telling us NOT to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Making them easy prey for Satan when difficult times come.

When we are given so many clearly written promises concerning salvation,

You are confusing hte promises of salvation with the promises of heaven...

The promises of heaven are conditional throughout Sacred Scriptures. Maybe your one thousandth reading will bring that to fruition, excuse the pun... The fact of the matter remains that we are heirs to eternal life ONLY if we suffer with Christ, only if we die to self, ONLY if we obey the Will of the Father.

If, If, IF....

Only if we enter the Wedding Feast with the White Robe, a sign of our good deeds in Christ. Otherwise, you will be cast out into the night, otherwise.

Translation - this is not a "lesser reward"... Heaven and hell awaits your decision to obey God.

and other verses that may seem to contradict those promises

You got it backwards and Christians for 2000 years recognize that OSAS is a false gospel.

we choose to either ignore some and stand on the ones we like, or we choose to believe some and figure out what the others must be saying. If two verses seem to disagree, we know it's our understanding that is at fault. I see the promises of God as written in stone...

The promises to those who remain faithful. God doesn't promise that person "X" is unconditionally going to heaven. For example, liars shall not inherit the Kingdom. That is a condition. If you are a liar AFTER receiving enlightenment and knowledge about Christ, been born from above, etc., and continue to be a liar, you have broken the condition necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Simple as that.

A liar doesn't enter the Kingdom, regardless of whether he rationalizes whether it is a sin or not...

So rather than go around claiming the saved can be lost...which requires ignoring the promises of God,

Again and again, you ignore what God has actually promised. ALL men will be judged based upon their deeds in this life. For eternal life or eternal condemnation, not for lesser rewards. This is a condition.

We are saved by God's initiative - Baptism. But whether we enter into eternal life into heaven is dependent upon the fruit of the planting. You would have to ignore an incredible amount of Sacred Scriptures to deny that. Virtually every book of the NT includes this theme.

I know that God alone knows who is born again of the Spirit. I know there will be some who He will say He NEVER knew...therefore, the only default position is that not all who claim to be saved are saved, indeed.

Yet again, you are confusing being born with providing fruit. The verse you are refering to doesn't speak about being born from above. It speaks about bearing fruit.

Personally, I think it's wrong to be so taken up with another man's salvation. The Lord allows many people to go through all kinds of things in their lives before He calls them home. It's not my job to accuse people of sin...people aren't convicted of their sin by any man telling him he's a sinner and falling short. It's the Word of God that does that, and man merely becomes a pharisee when he points his finger at others when he has a beam (he can't see and won't admit) in his own eye.

And this attitude is why American Christianity has become so liberal and relative. Something is sinful only if you think it is. If you can rationalize it away, it isn't sinful...

In the Scripture you refer to, the point is NOT that pointing the finger is wrong, but that a person points the finger who is sinful themselves... Jesus time and again points the finger at evil when He sees it. The Apostles and Paul do, as well. The issue here is not to be a hypocrite, as you will NOT be able to teach with Authority if you ARE a hypocrite...

And thus, many Christians do not preach the Gospel because their works are clearly seen by others (and not good ones)

Regards

Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I say?

I never once said I tell someone they never had Christ to begin with...that isn't my business. I'm merely pointing out that there are many people who claim to be born again that aren't. Proven by our Lord's words..."I never knew you." I know I've been born-again...I have no idea if you have. That is not my concern. Only you know if you have been changed...only you know if your desires are for the Lord. I have no problem encouraging people to make their calling and election sure...which is what Paul speaks of so often. Sharing the Word with someone who may have doubts is what we are called to do.

So you claim anyone who gets baptized is saved....fine. I refuse to go there. God alone knows someone's heart. Each must answer to God. And stop telling me I'm confused. You're confused because you're so sure you know what I believe. It's getting old...stop putting words in my mouth. If you are unable to understand what I'm saying then just ignore me. I have no problem with that. I believe I've made it very clear and have no need to defend myself from your false assumptions.

 

[glorydaz]

I most certainly have not "changed the words of Scripture". You are putting physical healing into portions of scripture that have nothing to do with it. There certainly are portions of scripture that speak of physical healing but the one you put forth DOES NOT.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

H7495
??? ???
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.

In other words : heal ! :yes

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

G2390
??????
iaomai
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively): - heal, make whole.

In other words : Heal ! :yes

Oh please...you can reach into the word pot all you want, but it does not make that scripture read what you claim it does. If you simply read the Word, instead of attempting to dissect it in order to support your personal belief, you'd see it's quite clear. SINS, TRANGRESSIONS, INIQUITIES.....

 

[glorydaz]

Men has turned it into a circus and preach that salvation is a line you step over. The result is the church of today: Unholy, in unbelief, running after any and every doctrine, powerless to even pray for the common cold let alone raise the dead. Its this doctrine that has robbed God's people and made them complacent and "at peace".

I love God's people and it hurts to see how many of them are on their way to hell, because they fell for a doctrine of demons.

This is totally incredible. Is this the "doctrine of demons" according to the Word of God? No, it's your own personal determination and it's judgmental in the extreme. You speak of love and have no idea what that is....this stone casting must be a "fruit" not mentioned in the Scripture. Perhaps it's come by some private revelation.

 

[jasoncran]

really, i guess that guy who was raised from the dead that visited my church a yr ago was a phony.

 

[glorydaz]

really, i guess that guy who was raised from the dead that visited my church a yr ago was a phony.

Knock knock...is this the Twilight Zone or just an episode of Candid Camera and no one told me?

 

[jasoncran]

really, i guess that guy who was raised from the dead that visited my church a yr ago was a phony.

Knock knock...is this the Twilight Zone or just an episode of Candid Camera and no one told me?

he was clinically dead for hours and people prayed and he was revived via medical prodecures. not sure of the exact story.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

There is no problem between the promises of God- and the ability for a person to fall away and loose their salvation.-

The reason is that ALL the promises of God are conditional! We are told that yes nothing shall seperate us from the Love of God- He will finish the work He began in us etc etc etc..... HOWEVER....

We are ALSO told that we MUST abide in the vine by faith and if we do not, it will be God himself who will cut us off as an unfruitful branches that bare thorns and get burned.

ALL the promises of God are in ONE PLACE- they are IN CHRIST. To have access to them you must 1 ABIDE IN CHRIST by faith and 2 WALK BY FAITH IN THAT PROMISE.

If you do not believe and walk by faith in the promises of God you will not lay hold on them and get them.

We stand by faith. We are born again and recieve His Spirit but we do not lay hold on and have the possesion of our salvation until we recieve our inheritance and our new bodies. Until then we live in hope and faith of that salvation and we have it by FAITH- NOT by manifestation.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Here it is. We who endure till the end SHALL be saved.-We ARE saved IF we KEEP in memory what was preached and did not believe in vain.

When we say we are saved- we are s[peaking BY FAITH according to the promise we are looking to and standing on, but we do not have it yet until the redemption of our bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, let's see. We can be saved from our enemies. We must endure...

That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Then we see saved (past tense)

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Here, we are quickened..."are saved".

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Saved...past tense.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Apparently not everyone believed we must wait to be saved.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

We are a sweet savour of Christ...them that ARE SAVED.

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Has saved....past tense.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Cornelius]

I most certainly have not "changed the words of Scripture". You are putting physical healing into portions of scripture that have nothing to do with it. There certainly are portions of scripture that speak of physical healing but the one you put forth DOES NOT.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

H7495
??? ???
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.

In other words : heal ! :yes

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

G2390
??????
iaomai
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively): - heal, make whole.

In other words : Heal ! :yes

Oh please...you can reach into the word pot all you want, but it does not make that scripture read what you claim it does. If you simply read the Word, instead of attempting to dissect it in order to support your personal belief, you'd see it's quite clear. SINS, TRANGRESSIONS, INIQUITIES.....

The interesting thing about life is that experience outweighs theory.

I am not writing about healing as a theory, I am writing about healing out of experience. I live it daily and so does the community of believers that I am part of. Last night in our meeting we took time to thank God for the many miraculous healings that He has done in our group, since we have believed the promise.
It was a long list , praise God. One amazing one, is when we prayed for a man a month ago, that was in a coma and his family was told that he will die and never wake up. After we prayed he started coming around and this week he took his first steps : Praise God ! So to another woman on whom the doctors have given up hope for. We prayed and she is out of ICU:actually she is the second woman we prayed for that came out of ICU after the doctors told the family there is no hope) Praise God, His promises are true. Also one of our sisters, who suffered from migraine for 20 years, every month for three days: We prayed and last night she again testified that its been two years now since we prayed and she has never had a migraine again: Praise be to God , for His promises are for those who believe and they are true.

Another sister's mother had to have a toe amputated . It went black due to lack of circulation. We prayed: Withing two days the blood started circulating again. No amputation: Praise God, for He still heals today. He restored my eyes so that I do not have to wear glasses and I am 53. He has just healed my mother's chronic colon, that has been like that for 50 years .Totally healed. No more problems. Praise God His word stands forever. He healed our sister Linda from cancer. In our group He has healed high blood pressure, legs, hearts, teeth, and the list goes on and on and on.(too long to post here in total )

So when I say "through His stripes we were healed" I mean "through His stripes we were healed" because that is how we get our healing. We walk in that promise, we stand on it.

Kind of like in "good news" you know. Praise God. The gospel is indeed good news that includes healing and deliverance and freedom from the curse and from sin............for those who believe.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Oh, before I forget: Last night after prayer the Lord healed my eyes from a constant pain that they developed. It felt like needles and now its gone. Praise God. He also healed me of a arrhythmic heart condition, that is "incurable" .

Lord I will sing your praises in the midst of the congregation, because You are great and You Word is forever true . hallelujah !

 

[Mysteryman]

There is no problem between the promises of God- and the ability for a person to fall away and loose their salvation.-

The reason is that ALL the promises of God are conditional! We are told that yes nothing shall seperate us from the Love of God- He will finish the work He began in us etc etc etc..... HOWEVER....

We are ALSO told that we MUST abide in the vine by faith and if we do not, it will be God himself who will cut us off as an unfruitful branches that bare thorns and get burned.

ALL the promises of God are in ONE PLACE- they are IN CHRIST. To have access to them you must 1 ABIDE IN CHRIST by faith and 2 WALK BY FAITH IN THAT PROMISE.

If you do not believe and walk by faith in the promises of God you will not lay hold on them and get them.

We stand by faith. We are born again and recieve His Spirit but we do not lay hold on and have the possesion of our salvation until we recieve our inheritance and our new bodies. Until then we live in hope and faith of that salvation and we have it by FAITH- NOT by manifestation.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Here it is. We who endure till the end SHALL be saved.-We ARE saved IF we KEEP in memory what was preached and did not believe in vain.

When we say we are saved- we are s[peaking BY FAITH according to the promise we are looking to and standing on, but we do not have it yet until the redemption of our bodies.

Hi

If God is going to keep you, then he will not cut you off, so that you will loose your salvation. You are totally contradicting yourself here.

 

[francisdesales]

Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I say?

I never once said I tell someone they never had Christ to begin with...that isn't my business.

Why are you being obtuse???

You HAVE INDEED said this. You even quote Matthew's Gospel, "I never knew you" to "prove" your point - that those who do not bear fruit never had the seed planted. EVER!!!

That's the entire premise of OSAS. If we look at someone's fruit of late, we can determine whether there was EVER a seed planted - whether he was EVER born from above. You used "I never knew you" as your proof text. Thus, a miracle worker can end up "never knowing Jesus to begin with"...

I'm merely pointing out that there are many people who claim to be born again that aren't.

Let's ignore everything else that follows and look at this, and you'll see what I was first attempting to do with my definition of being born from above. Then, you'll see why you are confusing the planting of the seed (being born from above) with the fruit (good works).

Being born from above is a one time event, correct?
A seed was planted, correct?
Do YOU KNOW WHEN THE SEED WILL GERMINATE?
Does a tree ALWAYS bear good fruit in season? Is it cut down immediately or is it given time to bear fruit?

Then why are you judging whether someone "really" was born from above (the term is "from above, not "again", Jesus corrected Nicodemus on that word.) because as of right now, they are going through a difficult growing period, a time of spiritual famine, and is in need of more care and attention?

When a seed has been planted, someone has been born from above. We know from the parable of the sower and the seed that ALL seeds do not necessarily bear good fruit in every season - and that some do indeed fall away and 'die'.

OSAS doesn't take this into account, and so is false.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Oh please...you can reach into the word pot all you want, but it does not make that scripture read what you claim it does. If you simply read the Word, instead of attempting to dissect it in order to support your personal belief, you'd see it's quite clear. SINS, TRANGRESSIONS, INIQUITIES.....

The interesting thing about life is that experience outweighs theory.

I am not writing about healing as a theory, I am writing about healing out of experience. I live it daily and so does the community of believers that I am part of. Last night in our meeting we took time to thank God for the many miraculous healings that He has done in our group, since we have believed the promise.
It was a long list , praise God. One amazing one, is when we prayed for a man a month ago, that was in a coma and his family was told that he will die and never wake up. After we prayed he started coming around and this week he took his first steps : Praise God ! So to another woman on whom the doctors have given up hope for. We prayed and she is out of ICU:actually she is the second woman we prayed for that came out of ICU after the doctors told the family there is no hope) Praise God, His promises are true. Also one of our sisters, who suffered from migraine for 20 years, every month for three days: We prayed and last night she again testified that its been two years now since we prayed and she has never had a migraine again: Praise be to God , for His promises are for those who believe and they are true.

Another sister's mother had to have a toe amputated . It went black due to lack of circulation. We prayed: Withing two days the blood started circulating again. No amputation: Praise God, for He still heals today. He restored my eyes so that I do not have to wear glasses and I am 53. He has just healed my mother's chronic colon, that has been like that for 50 years .Totally healed. No more problems. Praise God His word stands forever. He healed our sister Linda from cancer. In our group He has healed high blood pressure, legs, hearts, teeth, and the list goes on and on and on.(too long to post here in total )

So when I say "through His stripes we were healed" I mean "through His stripes we were healed" because that is how we get our healing. We walk in that promise, we stand on it.

Kind of like in "good news" you know. Praise God. The gospel is indeed good news that includes healing and deliverance and freedom from the curse and from sin............for those who believe.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Oh, before I forget: Last night after prayer the Lord healed my eyes from a constant pain that they developed. It felt like needles and now its gone. Praise God. He also healed me of a arrhythmic heart condition, that is "incurable" .

Lord I will sing your praises in the midst of the congregation, because You are great and You Word is forever true . hallelujah !

I have never once said I didn't believe the Lord heals...so don't claim I have. I've never met a believer that didn't know know they can come to the Lord for healing. I just don't believe that verse is speaking of physical healing. I don't need a lecture from you as if you and your friends have some special understanding of how God works. We always pray for healing of our physical ills, but that does not mean someone has a lack of faith when the Lord doesn't heal, as you seem to have claimed in the past. Nor does it mean men go around with the "gift" of healing. The Lord heals when He has mercy and hears our prayers.

 

[Cornelius]

Oh please...you can reach into the word pot all you want, but it does not make that scripture read what you claim it does. If you simply read the Word, instead of attempting to dissect it in order to support your personal belief, you'd see it's quite clear. SINS, TRANGRESSIONS, INIQUITIES.....

The interesting thing about life is that experience outweighs theory.

I am not writing about healing as a theory, I am writing about healing out of experience. I live it daily and so does the community of believers that I am part of. Last night in our meeting we took time to thank God for the many miraculous healings that He has done in our group, since we have believed the promise.
It was a long list , praise God. One amazing one, is when we prayed for a man a month ago, that was in a coma and his family was told that he will die and never wake up. After we prayed he started coming around and this week he took his first steps : Praise God ! So to another woman on whom the doctors have given up hope for. We prayed and she is out of ICU:actually she is the second woman we prayed for that came out of ICU after the doctors told the family there is no hope) Praise God, His promises are true. Also one of our sisters, who suffered from migraine for 20 years, every month for three days: We prayed and last night she again testified that its been two years now since we prayed and she has never had a migraine again: Praise be to God , for His promises are for those who believe and they are true.

Another sister's mother had to have a toe amputated . It went black due to lack of circulation. We prayed: Withing two days the blood started circulating again. No amputation: Praise God, for He still heals today. He restored my eyes so that I do not have to wear glasses and I am 53. He has just healed my mother's chronic colon, that has been like that for 50 years .Totally healed. No more problems. Praise God His word stands forever. He healed our sister Linda from cancer. In our group He has healed high blood pressure, legs, hearts, teeth, and the list goes on and on and on.(too long to post here in total )

So when I say "through His stripes we were healed" I mean "through His stripes we were healed" because that is how we get our healing. We walk in that promise, we stand on it.

Kind of like in "good news" you know. Praise God. The gospel is indeed good news that includes healing and deliverance and freedom from the curse and from sin............for those who believe.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Oh, before I forget: Last night after prayer the Lord healed my eyes from a constant pain that they developed. It felt like needles and now its gone. Praise God. He also healed me of a arrhythmic heart condition, that is "incurable" .

Lord I will sing your praises in the midst of the congregation, because You are great and You Word is forever true . hallelujah !

I have never once said I didn't believe the Lord heals...so don't claim I have. I've never met a believer that didn't know know they can come to the Lord for healing. I just don't believe that verse is speaking of physical healing. I don't need a lecture from you as if you and your friends have some special understanding of how God works. We always pray for healing of our physical ills, but that does not mean someone has a lack of faith when the Lord doesn't heal, as you seem to have claimed in the past. Nor does it mean men go around with the "gift" of healing. The Lord heals when He has mercy and hears our prayers.

I am really not going to get into any argument with you about it.

 

[DarcyLu]

Nor does it mean men go around with the "gift" of healing. The Lord heals when He has mercy and hears our prayers.

1 Cor 12:8For to one is given the word of (M)wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.