question for OSAS believers

[Solo]

What conditional salvation proponents fail to understand is the following:

Those born only of the flesh cannot obey God for salvation as they are sinners, and cannot appease the wages of sin which is death; therefore, such a one needs assistance in order to be saved. Yes or no? (John 6:63, John 16:13)

Those born of the flesh must also be born of the Spirit in order to see AND enter the kingdom of God. Yes or no? (John 3:3-5)

Once one is born of the flesh and born of the Spirit one is a new spiritual creature existing in old natural sinful flesh. Yes or no? (Romans 7, 2 Corinthians 5:17)

Once one is born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells this one, and seals him until the day of redemption? Yes or no? (Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:11)

Once one is born of the Spirit, one is incorruptible and immortal while living in a corruptible, mortal flesh. Yes or no? (Romans 7, 1 John 3:9)

Can one who is born of God be sinful, corrupt, and mortal? Yes or no? (1 John 3:9)

When one dies physically, the new creature which was born of the Spirit goes to be with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of the dead, corrupt, mortal body whereby the new spiritual creature will join with the new resurrected incorruptible, immortal, glorified body. Yes of no? (Ecclesiastes 12:7, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

Those who have been born of God are spiritually incorruptible and immortal not stained with sin like the flesh.

 

[Good News Brown]

I think we all know that one doesn't need to clean up their act before coming to Christ Matthew 11:28. I often hear things like a believer with an alcohol problem couldn't be saved. And if they were truly saved, they would quit drinking immediately. I don't know what some people think. I guess they think that if they received Christ at the time they had an alcohol addiction, they would magically quit. Realistically, the only reason you and I are not lying in an alley with a bottle of wine in our hands, is by the sheer no holds barred grace and mercy of God. We've been spared the addiction. Any sin we don't commit can be attributed to God's mercy. King Abimelech, although perhaps not a man of faith per Genesis 20:11, thought he was justified in what he didn't do. However, it was God that prevented him from sinning.

God prevents man fron sinning? So much for free will - and God desiring all men to be saved ...

God gives us the ABILITY to obey Him. God enables us to resist temptation. The final choice to do so, or not, depends on our free will. Without God, we can do nothing good. But that doesn't mean that God does everything.

I agree with you above, that when God saves us, it doesn't mean we instantaneously become all holy and drop all addictions. God gives us that ABILITY. We now have a new principle, a new guide within us. But as any guide, we can ignore Him and do our own thing, remaining in addiction and sin.

Regards

Yes, we do have free-will. And of course God doesn't prevent us from sinning because we all do. We also know that Satan presents himself at times to God, to get permission from God to tempt us as we see with Peter Luke 22:31-32, and in Job. We don't see this happening (Satan presenting himself to God) anymore than Peter or Job did. You or I don't know really know what temptations we may have been spared where we would have fallen into sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 states that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle. This would indicate that we all have weaknesses that we wouldn't be able to handle without God's prevention. It may not be alcohol. Some people can't stand the taste. One of the ways were are told to pray as we see in the Lord's prayer, is lead us not into temptation. The opposite of this would be bring it on, I can handle it as Peter implied when confronted with the denying issue. Why should we pray this way if there's no danger? And unless there's an understanding of our own weakness and potential of falling?

 

[shad]

Those who have been born of God are spiritually incorruptible and immortal not stained with sin like the flesh.

Jesus says to His followers to be faithful to Him until the end. Why does He say this if we are spiritually incorruptible?

 

[Solo]

Those who have been born of God are spiritually incorruptible and immortal not stained with sin like the flesh.

Jesus says to His followers to be faithful to Him until the end. Why does He say this if we are spiritually incorruptible?

Walk in the Spirit so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, my friend. For walking in the sinful flesh instead of the sinless born again spirit will lead you to physical destruction.

 

[shad]

Those who have been born of God are spiritually incorruptible and immortal not stained with sin like the flesh.

Jesus says to His followers to be faithful to Him until the end. Why does He say this if we are spiritually incorruptible?

Walk in the Spirit so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, my friend. For walking in the sinful flesh instead of the sinless born again spirit will lead you to physical destruction.

You are making excuses one after another to support your man-made doctrine with confusing explanation. God is not God of confusion.

I have been Jesus' servant and I have not following your doctrine. The Bible is making it very clear how it is important to make every effort to get into heaven. I understand that the only security Jesus gives us is to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, strength and mind, and love our neighbor as ourselves until the end. It takes a lot of effort. We should not give false security to new and weak believers. When we strive to be faithful to Jesus, the Holy Spirit will give us confidence and secure feeling to overcome our weakness. I know that the Holy Spirit has been working in my walk with Jesus powerfully. I also know that once you give your life to Jesus honestly you are born again, and your life will change drastically according to Jesus' teachings.

My testimony for Jesus has nothing to do with OSAS doctrine.

I am done with this thread.

Simple servant, shad.

 

[Solo]

• 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
  Romans 8:1-9

• 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
  Galatians 5:13-26

 

[XTruth]

• 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
  Romans 8:1-9

• 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
  Galatians 5:13-26

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
13And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
14And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
15And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
17And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
18And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
25And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
26And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
30And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

It is better for me to use this passage to support conditional eternal salvation based on faith plus works than for you to use the passages you have used. This passage of mine doesn't support my argument, but at least it doesn't contradict it.

 

[Solo]

• 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
  Romans 8:1-9

• 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
  Galatians 5:13-26

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
13And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
14And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
15And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
17And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
18And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
25And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
26And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
30And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

It is better for me to use this passage to support conditional eternal salvation based on faith plus works than for you to use the passages you have used. This passage of mine doesn't support my argument, but at least it doesn't contradict it.

Ignoring the truth of the Word of God causes terrible eternal ramifications, my neighbor.

 

[Good News Brown]

Judas Iscariot was personally chosen by Jesus, with Jesus spending the night in prayer to select 12 as his apostles.(Luke 6:12-16) At this time, Judas had a clean heart. However, he became a "lover of money" and allowed Satan to enter into his heart.(John 12:6)

It's not a very likely scenario that he had a clean heart, and then had this drastic change once he became a disciple. And I don't think that there's any indication of this in scripture.

I would say he had a love for money well before he became one of His followers.

 

[Good News Brown]

So, while I would LOVE to believe that 'being saved' was as simple as some would have it, if this were truth, then MOST of what has been offered in Word is NOT. i choose to believe that the entirety of scriptue exists for a 'purpose'. That it was offered so that we MAY receive the 'gift' that has been offered. So that we may gain the truth, wisdom, faith, hope, and LOVE that we NEED in order to be WORTHY of the 'gift that has been offered'.


MEC

I wouldn't say it was simple at all. Luke 13:24 states that one should strive to enter through the narrow gate. The problem that occurred at that time, as well as today, we can see in Romans 3:11 There is none who seeks after God. Consider all those today who no matter how many tracts are handed to them don't believe. Or if they believe in Jesus, upon further probing, they think He was merely a teacher or prophet. Or, they just reject the Gospel. Jesus' comment to Peter in Matthew 16:17 was that God Himself revealed the truth to him. It wasn't easy believe-ism fortified by faithfulness and good works.

 

[Solo]

Judas Iscariot was personally chosen by Jesus, with Jesus spending the night in prayer to select 12 as his apostles.(Luke 6:12-16) At this time, Judas had a clean heart. However, he became a "lover of money" and allowed Satan to enter into his heart.(John 12:6)

It's not a very likely scenario that he had a clean heart, and then had this drastic change once he became a disciple. And I don't think that there's any indication of this in scripture.

I would say he had a love for money well before he became one of His followers.

Judas was never a believer, nor did he have a clean heart, but was instead chosen to fulfill prophecy to betray the Lord Jesus Christ.

• 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

• 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

• 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. John 13:10-11

 

[LostSoul]

Judas Iscariot was personally chosen by Jesus, with Jesus spending the night in prayer to select 12 as his apostles.(Luke 6:12-16) At this time, Judas had a clean heart. However, he became a "lover of money" and allowed Satan to enter into his heart.(John 12:6)

It's not a very likely scenario that he had a clean heart, and then had this drastic change once he became a disciple. And I don't think that there's any indication of this in scripture.

I would say he had a love for money well before he became one of His followers.

Judas was never a believer, nor did he have a clean heart, but was instead chosen to fulfill prophecy to betray the Lord Jesus Christ.

• 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

• 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

• 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. John 13:10-11

Solo,

I am sorry but this is one interpretation I cannot agree with. Yes, Judas DID betray Jesus as was prophesied. At the same time, was it not also him who was so stricken with grief over the very same fact that he ended his own life?

Then....are you one who believes that those who end their own lives are doomed to Hell? Each of us are sinners no doubt and salvation to some is easily achieved simply through faith alone. While others believe it is good works.

As I have said before....a real relationship with Christ requires both. Which I understand if some or a number here are not in agreement with me.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Solo]

It's not a very likely scenario that he had a clean heart, and then had this drastic change once he became a disciple. And I don't think that there's any indication of this in scripture.

I would say he had a love for money well before he became one of His followers.

Judas was never a believer, nor did he have a clean heart, but was instead chosen to fulfill prophecy to betray the Lord Jesus Christ.

• 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

• 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

• 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. John 13:10-11

Solo,

I am sorry but this is one interpretation I cannot agree with. Yes, Judas DID betray Jesus as was prophesied. At the same time, was it not also him who was so stricken with grief over the very same fact that he ended his own life?

Then....are you one who believes that those who end their own lives are doomed to Hell? Each of us are sinners no doubt and salvation to some is easily achieved simply through faith alone. While others believe it is good works.

As I have said before....a real relationship with Christ requires both. Which I understand if some or a number here are not in agreement with me.

May God Bless You

Danielle

Danielle,

The Scriptures say that Judas was not a believer, and that he was a devil, and that he was not clean. If you disagree with the Scripture, then that is something that you and God have to work out.

Unbelievers will be cast out and will weep and gnash their teeth. Will this be because they messed up and did not believe? Yes. Did Judas commit suicide because he messed up and did not believe? Yes.

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

Michael

 

[francisdesales]

The Scriptures say that Judas was not a believer, and that he was a devil, and that he was not clean. If you disagree with the Scripture, then that is something that you and God have to work out.

The Scriptures say no such thing when Judas was first called, OR when Judas was among the disciples sent out to preach the Word. Only at the end did Judas FALL AWAY.

We see it all the time, except for those who stubbornly deny reality. People accept the Lord with all their heart, begin a life of faith working in love, perhaps for YEARS - and then fall away, sometimes into atheism. It is unlikely that you do not know anyone like this, Solo. Your denial that "they were never saved to begin with" is just soliphism - since it calls into question EVERYONE'S "saved status", since none of us knows whether we will be among those whose names are BLOTTED OUT of the book of life...

Unbelievers will be cast out and will weep and gnash their teeth. Will this be because they messed up and did not believe? Yes. Did Judas commit suicide because he messed up and did not believe? Yes.

Unbelievers, including FORMERLY BELIEVERS...

2 Peter2 remains...

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

In other words, you also may "believe you are born again and are not"...

Subjective salvation gets you nowhere...

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

And a person can have a very long and good relationship only to break up the relationship and hate the other person.

Maybe you have heard of "divorce"? Two people of one flesh, totally giving to the other - CHOOSE to separate and go their separate ways, often times, hating the other.

This is not rocket science. This is life.

Wake up.

Regards

 

[shad]

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

Michael

Solo,

You have been flippant about your position from here to there. Jesus is the only one who knows who is secured in their position or not, not your doctrine. OSAS is a judgmental doctrine to ostracize believers who don't agree with you. It is not of Jesus.

 

[LostSoul]

Danielle,

The Scriptures say that Judas was not a believer, and that he was a devil, and that he was not clean. If you disagree with the Scripture, then that is something that you and God have to work out.

Unbelievers will be cast out and will weep and gnash their teeth. Will this be because they messed up and did not believe? Yes. Did Judas commit suicide because he messed up and did not believe? Yes.

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

Michael

Solo,

I could be wrong....for I do not know everything...nor will I imply that I do. My understanding of things in terms of the Bible will vary even differ from a number of the people here at the forums. That is undeniable.

But are any of us truly qualified to judge what is in another's heart when we, ourselves, do not know fully what is in another's heart?

In terms of scripture there are a number of sinful people who walked with Jesus we could look at and question their salvation. What of Mary Magdeline? What of our doubting Thomas? What of our passionate and ever fearful Peter? Did not the devil use Peter to say he did not know Jesus? Is that much different than handing Jesus over to be crucified? Is that any less of a betrayal?

Judas DID betray Jesus. But never....NEVER did he deny Him as Peter did. Jesus too, DID prophesy Peter's denial. Which was not done once,...or twice...but THREE times! So in a way...Peter's betrayal was no less shameful or wrong than that of Judas. For He not only fled from His Lord, but denied Him.

If we were to put such in a modern scenario...it would almost be as if Jesus were falsely accused of a crime and Peter had the alibi of which Jesus needed, but was denied because of fear. God NEVER gave us the spirit of fear. That is one of many tools Satan uses against us. Does such mean that Peter went to Hell for his crimes? ...God alone knows.

None of us are perfect. So many of us...if not all of us...FALL from grace. For we are IMPERFECT. Born again or no, we still are VERY MUCH capable of sin which is why Jesus is an ever constantly NEEDED presence in our lives.

So if in truth....I am wrong....and because I do not share your views I am doubting scripture...then I pray God leads me right and helps me to see the error of my ways. However, I will not lie to you, it pains me to the heart to have a fellow brother or sister tell me because I do not see things the way they do that I do not believe in parts of scripture. Nonetheless, I respect your views Solo even if I cannot fully share them. One thing I know we can agree on is that God is love and He would want us to love one another and to minister to each other in such. With that being said, I am going to thank you and the others here for much of this discussion. It has proven ensightful thus far.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[mondar]

• 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

My compliments, excellent scriptural response to the Judas issue.

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved;

I am sure your comment could spark an shallow but emotion filled discussion. I probably should ignore your comment, not because it is wrong, nor because you have done anything wrong, but because much damage can be done by those who are ignorant of how Christianity might function with those who have serious mental disorders. I fear someone responding to your statement or my statements with terrible ignorance. Yet I cannot hold my tongue (or keyboard fingers).

I know believers with major depression (one successfully committed suicide), and schizophrenia. Now doubt there are also Christians with Bi-Polar, Obsessive Compulsive DO, Post Traumatic Stress DO, and other Anxiety disorders. Believers hear voices, become delusional, commit suicide, and suffer from all the same sicknesses and symptoms that unbelievers do. Just as your heart or some other major organ can become diseased and defective, a brain is a physical organ that can become sick, or have diseases.

I also wish to say that I marvel at the power of the gospel in the lives of the saved mentally ill. The light of the gospel shines through in their integrity, and works of kindness to others. Unfortunately, if they don't control their sickness through the medications they take, it can be deadly to both their actual lives, and their spiritual lives.

 

[Good News Brown]

Danielle,

The Scriptures say that Judas was not a believer, and that he was a devil, and that he was not clean. If you disagree with the Scripture, then that is something that you and God have to work out.

Unbelievers will be cast out and will weep and gnash their teeth. Will this be because they messed up and did not believe? Yes. Did Judas commit suicide because he messed up and did not believe? Yes.

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

Michael

Solo,

I could be wrong....for I do not know everything...nor will I imply that I do. My understanding of things in terms of the Bible will vary even differ from a number of the people here at the forums. That is undeniable.

But are any of us truly qualified to judge what is in another's heart when we, ourselves, do not know fully what is in another's heart?

In terms of scripture there are a number of sinful people who walked with Jesus we could look at and question their salvation. What of Mary Magdeline? What of our doubting Thomas? What of our passionate and ever fearful Peter? Did not the devil use Peter to say he did not know Jesus? Is that much different than handing Jesus over to be crucified? Is that any less of a betrayal?

Judas DID betray Jesus. But never....NEVER did he deny Him as Peter did. Jesus too, DID prophesy Peter's denial. Which was not done once,...or twice...but THREE times! So in a way...Peter's betrayal was no less shameful or wrong than that of Judas. For He not only fled from His Lord, but denied Him.

If we were to put such in a modern scenario...it would almost be as if Jesus were falsely accused of a crime and Peter had the alibi of which Jesus needed, but was denied because of fear. God NEVER gave us the spirit of fear. That is one of many tools Satan uses against us. Does such mean that Peter went to Hell for his crimes? ...God alone knows.

None of us are perfect. So many of us...if not all of us...FALL from grace. For we are IMPERFECT. Born again or no, we still are VERY MUCH capable of sin which is why Jesus is an ever constantly NEEDED presence in our lives.

So if in truth....I am wrong....and because I do not share your views I am doubting scripture...then I pray God leads me right and helps me to see the error of my ways. However, I will not lie to you, it pains me to the heart to have a fellow brother or sister tell me because I do not see things the way they do that I do not believe in parts of scripture. Nonetheless, I respect your views Solo even if I cannot fully share them. One thing I know we can agree on is that God is love and He would want us to love one another and to minister to each other in such. With that being said, I am going to thank you and the others here for much of this discussion. It has proven ensightful thus far.

May God Bless You

Danielle

Hi Danielle,

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but just wanted to add something to ponder. First off, Solo is absolutely correct about Judas. There's absolutely nothing that would indicate that he was ever saved/born again, and that he was placed among the disciples to fulfill that certain purpose. That's exactly what the scriptures clearly state. That's all we really need to know, and that's the difference between Judas and Peter, Mary Magdeline, etc. It's not a matter of what sin was the worse. Although Judas felt remorse, it doesn't mean he repented of his sins as did the confirmed believers in the Bible who've sinned.

We know that there is wolves in sheep's clothing, so consider the warning in Matthew 7:15-16 concerning false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. Also the parable of the wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved) in Matthew 13:24-30. Both of these scriptures indicate a close interaction between genuine believers, and false brethren. Paul was concerned about false teachers coming into the Body of Christ. Some I would say would like to point to Judas being saved at one time because it would support their viewpoint, because most of us believe that Judas is eternally separated from God. The reasoning that's often used is by the mere fact that he was chosen. But again, the concept of false brethren/wolfs in sheep's clothing (never saved) is not a foreign one now, nor back then.

 

[Good News Brown]

Danielle,

The Scriptures say that Judas was not a believer, and that he was a devil, and that he was not clean. If you disagree with the Scripture, then that is something that you and God have to work out.

Unbelievers will be cast out and will weep and gnash their teeth. Will this be because they messed up and did not believe? Yes. Did Judas commit suicide because he messed up and did not believe? Yes.

I happen to believe that even born again believers can commit suicide, and yet they will be saved; however, some may believe that they are born again and are not. Those that commit suicide will be saddened to know that they were not born again as those whom Jesus told to depart from him as He never knew them.

A relationship requires one being born again, and after that He knows them and they know Him. All else is like fools gold; it looks like gold but is not.

Michael

Solo,

I could be wrong....for I do not know everything...nor will I imply that I do. My understanding of things in terms of the Bible will vary even differ from a number of the people here at the forums. That is undeniable.

But are any of us truly qualified to judge what is in another's heart when we, ourselves, do not know fully what is in another's heart?

In terms of scripture there are a number of sinful people who walked with Jesus we could look at and question their salvation. What of Mary Magdeline? What of our doubting Thomas? What of our passionate and ever fearful Peter? Did not the devil use Peter to say he did not know Jesus? Is that much different than handing Jesus over to be crucified? Is that any less of a betrayal?

Judas DID betray Jesus. But never....NEVER did he deny Him as Peter did. Jesus too, DID prophesy Peter's denial. Which was not done once,...or twice...but THREE times! So in a way...Peter's betrayal was no less shameful or wrong than that of Judas. For He not only fled from His Lord, but denied Him.

If we were to put such in a modern scenario...it would almost be as if Jesus were falsely accused of a crime and Peter had the alibi of which Jesus needed, but was denied because of fear. God NEVER gave us the spirit of fear. That is one of many tools Satan uses against us. Does such mean that Peter went to Hell for his crimes? ...God alone knows.

None of us are perfect. So many of us...if not all of us...FALL from grace. For we are IMPERFECT. Born again or no, we still are VERY MUCH capable of sin which is why Jesus is an ever constantly NEEDED presence in our lives.

So if in truth....I am wrong....and because I do not share your views I am doubting scripture...then I pray God leads me right and helps me to see the error of my ways. However, I will not lie to you, it pains me to the heart to have a fellow brother or sister tell me because I do not see things the way they do that I do not believe in parts of scripture. Nonetheless, I respect your views Solo even if I cannot fully share them. One thing I know we can agree on is that God is love and He would want us to love one another and to minister to each other in such. With that being said, I am going to thank you and the others here for much of this discussion. It has proven ensightful thus far.

May God Bless You

Danielle

Hi Danielle,

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but just wanted to add something to ponder. First off, Solo is absolutely correct about Judas. There's absolutely nothing that would indicate that he was ever saved/born again, but that he was actually placed among the disciples to fulfill that certain purpose of betrayal. That's exactly what the scriptures clearly state. That's all we really need to know, and that's the difference between Judas, Peter, Mary Magdeline, etc. It's not a matter of what sin was the worse. Although Judas felt remorse, it doesn't mean that he repented of his sins as did the various confirmed believers in the Bible who have sinned.

We know that there are wolves in sheep's clothing, so consider the warning in Matthew 7:15-16 concerning false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. Also the parable of the wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved) in Matthew 13:24-30. Both of these scriptures indicate a close interaction between genuine believers, and false brethren (even within the church). Paul was also concerned about false teachers coming into the Body of Christ. Some I would say would like to point to Judas being saved at one time because it would support their viewpoint, because most of us believe that Judas is eternally separated from God. The reasoning that's often used is the mere fact that he was chosen to be one of the 12. But again, the concept of false brethren/wolfs in sheep's clothing (never saved) is not a foreign one now, nor was it back then. We may even look at Judas as an example/predecessor to today's false brethren residing within the Body of Christ.

 

[shad]

.

We know that there are wolves in sheep's clothing, so consider the warning in Matthew 7:15-16 concerning false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. Also the parable of the wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved) in Matthew 13:24-30. Both of these scriptures indicate a close interaction between genuine believers, and false brethren (even within the church). Paul was also concerned about false teachers coming into the Body of Christ. Some I would say would like to point to Judas being saved at one time because it would support their viewpoint, because most of us believe that Judas is eternally separated from God. The reasoning that's often used is the mere fact that he was chosen to be one of the 12. But again, the concept of false brethren/wolfs in sheep's clothing (never saved) is not a foreign one now, nor was it back then. We may even look at Judas as an example/predecessor to today's false brethren residing within the Body of Christ.

So you use your OSAS and trinity doctrine to ostracize your opponents as wolves?