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question for OSAS believers

Good News Brown said:
Hi Danielle,

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but just wanted to add something to ponder. First off, Solo is absolutely correct about Judas. There's absolutely nothing that would indicate that he was ever saved/born again, and that he was placed among the disciples to fulfill that certain purpose. That's exactly what the scriptures clearly state. That's all we really need to know, and that's the difference between Judas and Peter, Mary Magdeline, etc. It's not a matter of what sin was the worse. Although Judas felt remorse, it doesn't mean he repented of his sins as did the confirmed believers in the Bible who've sinned.

We know that there is wolves in sheep's clothing, so consider the warning in Matthew 7:15-16 concerning false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. Also the parable of the wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved) in Matthew 13:24-30. Both of these scriptures indicate a close interaction between genuine believers, and false brethren. Paul was concerned about false teachers coming into the Body of Christ. Some I would say would like to point to Judas being saved at one time because it would support their viewpoint, because most of us believe that Judas is eternally separated from God. The reasoning that's often used is by the mere fact that he was chosen. But again, the concept of false brethren/wolfs in sheep's clothing (never saved) is not a foreign one now, nor back then.

Good News Brown,

This is an open forum for discussion. So no qualms had with you participating in this conversation. It is clear you and I also will not see eye to eye. For the point in particular I am striving to make here is that NO MAN can judge another's heart. That GOD ALONE knows every man's heart. So in short....NO ONE of us CAN say who does or does not have salvation. For that is NOT for any of us to decide but GOD seeing as He knows us best and knows our true intentions.

As I have said before, my understanding can be flawed. Then...it may not. That is something hopefully God will clear up for me in time. Just find it hard not to be upset when someone more or less tells me that if I do not have their views I twist or do not understand the passage as it was meant to be read. I know that each of us will be passionate on certain views, but we should also try to keep our tongues in check along with our tempers. All it takes is one wrong word to set a spark of anger, and one angry word or the like for us to lead one another into sin or temptation. Which undoubtably is no one's intentions here.

Knowing that the views I have are thought to be wrong, I am going to bow out of this discussion and try to learn what I can from this discussion.

May God Bless You

Danielle
 
Psalms 109:13
Example of Judas
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.


The entire book of Psalms was written from about 450 to 1,500 B.C. This is a prophecy written about Judas Iscariot at least 481 years before he betrayed and rejected Jesus. It is further proof that names can be blotted out of God’s book of life; though, the codices, the Septuagint and the Vulgate, read ‘his name,’ instead of ‘their name,’ referring to Judas alone. There is no reason implied why anyone else’s name can’t be blotted out who reject Christ after salvation, especially in view of Exodus 32:32-33 and Revelation 22:18-19. Refer to Luke 10:20 for the reasons why doctrine’s against this belief hold no water. Here, we’re going to prove that Judas was a justified and a saved man; therefore, having his name written with the righteous in the Lamb’s book of life and that he died a condemned and a damned man; therefore, had his name blotted out of the book as said in Psalms 109:13. This alone should be proof that anyone can lose salvation. Unfortunately, it won’t be.

Judas was once saved in his physical life as proved from a number of passages. Judas had to have had his name written in the book of life in order for it to be taken out (Ps.69:25-28; 109:13; Acts 1:20). Judas was a bishop of the church (Ps.109:8, Acts 1:20). He was a familiar friend of Jesus, a man Jesus trusted, and ate of Christ’s bread (Ps.41:9). Jesus gave him power over demon spirits to cast them out and to heal every kind of sickness and disease (Mat.10:1-4, 8; Mk.3:14-15; 6:7; Lk.9:1-2). He was sent forth as a representative of Christ to all of Israel (Mat.10:5-6) and was part of the apostolic ministry (Acts 1:17, 25). He was called to preach (Mat.10:7) and had the peace of God to give to a home as all Christ’s disciples had (Mat.10:13). Judas was an apostle, which means he was divinely called and sent forth by God to do His work (Lk.6:13). He was a sheep in the midst of wolves like all the disciples were (Mat.10:16) and had the Holy Spirit in him (Mat.10:19-20). As a disciple, Judas was ordained by Jesus to the ministry (Mk.3:14) and just as successful at it as the other disciples were (Lk.9:6, 10). He also had eternal life at one time by Jesus’ own admission (Jn.17:2).

So Jesus considered Judas a familiar friend; the Hebrew word for familiar means, to confide in, as to be secure without fear. Many people teach that Judas had the devil in him since birth. Jesus wouldn’t call an unsaved man controlled by the devil “My own familiar friend,†nor would he have confided in or ate bread with such a man. Those who were very intimate and personal friends always did breaking bread with another and partaking it together. Judas had the Holy Spirit and the power of Christ in him to heal and cast out demons. Can a kingdom divided against itself, stand? Would a man possessed by Satan cast out Satan (Mk.3:23-27)? Only saved men are given the Holy Spirit and authority over devils (Jn.3:5-6; Rom.8:9). Judas had been a righteous man, on fire for God before he gave way to sin and damned his soul.

Judas’ soul was damned during the last days of his life and was never renewed again, which is possible to do (Heb.6:6). He fell by transgression from the ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25). Satan had entered him at the end of Christ’s ministry (Lk.22:3; Jn.13:2) and he became a thief (John 12:6). Judas became an adversary and betrayer of Christ (Jn.6:70-71) just as Peter would deny Christ (see Peter’s fall in Mat.26:34, and in Mark 14:27-31 from this book). Neither had happened when first spoken of, so they were still innocent until acted out. Judas’ salvation had been confirmed in John 17:2, while in John 17:12, Jesus states that all will be kept except the son of destruction in order that prophecy would be fulfilled.

How did Judas fall from something he never had (Acts 1:25)? That defeats the very definition. Some translations say ‘turn away’ or ‘turned aside.’ We turn from sin to follow Jesus (Jn.8:12). So it is very true that you can turn from Jesus to follow sin, lest Jesus took our free will in exchange for our salvation. It was also said that Satan entered him. This proves that Judas wasn’t always under the manipulation of him or submitting to Satan’s temptations to transgress against the righteousness of God through stealing, lying, and betrayal. Neither thief nor covetous, greedy person will ever inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10). No one dieing a saved man will be condemned at judgment having Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). All Judas’ labor was in vain, being counted as worthless (Ps.109:11; Phil.2:16). All his righteousness could not save him the day he betrayed Jesus and took his own life (Eze.3:20). He showed no mercy to Jesus and persecuted Him (Ps.109:16).

God is still merciful and just to forgive such a man as this if that man would return to Him. Judas never did. The KJV and RSV translation of Matthew 27:3 does say Judas repented himself after he saw that he was condemned. But the Greek word for ‘repent’ in that verse only means he had deep regret (Turn to Matthew 27:3 for more information about that). Judas was a saved man after coming to Christ and walking with Him. Sin, which is the only thing that has ever condemned man, later condemned the same Judas. His name was in the book of life and was taken out just as anyone who sins against God (Ex.32:33). But let no one who is saved say they aren’t condemned by ‘normal sin’ because it was never against God. All sin is against God and all man’s sin is betrayal to God by saying your authority own is greater than His.

Matthew 27:3
Example of Judas
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,


Judas was an apostle of the gospel of God (Lk.6:13) and filled with the Holy Spirit (Mat.10:19-20). He also became a thief (Jn.12:6), betrayed Jesus (Mat.27:4), and committed suicide (Mat.27:5). Some say he was always filled with the devil, despite his three years of casting out devils. Therefore, destined to be condemned in order to fulfill prophecy (Ps.69:25-28; 109:6-20). God has never destined one for destruction, but chooses everyone to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). Even the Antichrist has a choice. It’s just that God already knew their outcome before it happened(s). Others say that a man who was filled by the Spirit of God and walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry could never be damned to hell for eternity with Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). It rattles the ground from beneath their feet and boggles the minds of the eternal security believing saint’s foundation of thinking. But their pride is too great and grip too strong to let go (Mat.5:5).

Judas never repented to God. He only had self regret as meant by the Greek word ‘metamellomai.’ This word is never used of legitimate repentance. If Judas had a moral change in direction to act or think differently, then the Greek word ‘metanoeo’ would have been used. An example of the Greek word ‘metanoeo’ being used is when John the Baptist was yelling in the wilderness for people to repent (Mat.3:2), and the same ‘repent’ Jesus commanded people to do from the very beginning of His earthly ministry (Mat.4:17). Sometimes, you have to look at the original word, whether in Greek or Hebrew, to be aware of the real meaning. Pastors aren’t always trying to look smart by their word search studies. They’re just looking for the authentic comprehension of the message God wishes to convey.

Not only is this proof of a genuine falling away, but also a warning to the reader that self regret isn’t valid repentance. Judas knew what he did was messed up. He knew and it’s in writing (Mat.27:4). But confessing sin and accepting your responsibility for it doesn’t mean you’ve been atoned for it by God. Judas had self-regret and confessed his sin before man. Unless you go before God, who alone pardons sin, you are not justified and held blameless. (For more on Judas, flip over to Psalms 109:13 in this book).

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Many look at this verse and only see that Jesus keeps all that are His. They are blinded from the exception of the one, who was Judas. Jesus is specifically referring to the twelve hand picked disciples. If salvation can’t be lost and God squeezes everyone in His hand so that none can jump ship, then why couldn’t Judas be kept? Judas was certainly chosen of Jesus and anointed to the ministry and performing miracles just as the other eleven were. If Judas wasn’t included among the saved, then language means nothing here. None was lost except for Judas who fell by transgression (Ps.41:9; 69:25-29; Acts 1:20-25). (Refer to Psalms 109:13 and Matthew 27:3 for the example of Judas).

The ‘son of perdition’ reference of Judas is not the Antichrist in this verse as it is in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Greeks and Hebrews called anyone who had a particular characteristic, destiny, or quality, the child of that thing. This can be seen twice in Ephesians 2:2-3 when believers who won’t submit to God’s authority are called ‘children of disobedience’ and ‘the children of wrath.’ Judas willfully sinned and became lost, it was not conducted by God that Scripture would be fulfilled. Prophecy was written because God knew what would happen. He wishes for none to be lost (2 Pt.3:9).

Lets examine the word ‘lost’ in case anyone doubts how this word is used. The Greek word used for ‘lost,’ which is said of Judas’ eternal state, is ‘apollumi,’ which means to destroy fully, to perish, or lose. This Greek word ‘apollumi’ was translated ‘lose’ in John 12:25: “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal,†and ‘perish’ in John 3:15-16: “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.†Based on this one verse alone, salvation is clearly up to each individual to keep or lose for himself.

Acts 1:25
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


This verse carries on where John 17:12 left off. Judas was saved, but was not kept by Jesus, though that was not the desire of Jesus. Men are free moral agents, and when we rebel to the point of judgment, God is under obligation to enforce His promise of destruction for the wicked (Ex.34:7; Nah.1:2-3). “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgressi of the law (1 Jn.3:4).†Judas transgressed the law of God and went to the place made for the transgressors when they die. He chose this place after he had been saved. He felt unworthy of eternal life by betraying Christ, though God would’ve eagerly received Him; for he has received the most heinous of people (1 Cor.6:11). Judas would’ve had his named immortalized in the foundations of the New Jerusalem, instead of being replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Rev.21:14).†Transgressions of God’s laws are always the way a saved individual becomes unsaved.
 
shad said:
Good News Brown said:
.

We know that there are wolves in sheep's clothing, so consider the warning in Matthew 7:15-16 concerning false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. Also the parable of the wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved) in Matthew 13:24-30. Both of these scriptures indicate a close interaction between genuine believers, and false brethren (even within the church). Paul was also concerned about false teachers coming into the Body of Christ. Some I would say would like to point to Judas being saved at one time because it would support their viewpoint, because most of us believe that Judas is eternally separated from God. The reasoning that's often used is the mere fact that he was chosen to be one of the 12. But again, the concept of false brethren/wolfs in sheep's clothing (never saved) is not a foreign one now, nor was it back then. We may even look at Judas as an example/predecessor to today's false brethren residing within the Body of Christ.

So you use your OSAS and trinity doctrine to ostracize your opponents as wolves?
shad,

Not at all. I tried to word it so it wouldn't appear that way, but I probably should have specified this. My reference to wolves in sheep's clothing was in reference to Judas, and anyone who is a not a genuine believer. I personally don't view one who believes in conditional security as false brethren based on their belief, so my comment has nothing to do with anyone posting here.
 
Good News Brown said:
Not at all. I tried to word it so it wouldn't appear that way, but I probably should have specified this. My reference to wolves in sheep's clothing was in reference to Judas, and anyone who is a not a genuine believer. I personally don't view one who believes in conditional security as false brethren based on their belief, so my comment has nothing to do with anyone posting here.

thank you for your reply GNB. :-)

There are many kinds of wolves everywhere, according to the Bible. There is no sense talking about it because all of us can abuse the Scriptures to attack our opponents. Jesus says to watch our fruit if we are of God or not, not doctrine or what we say.
 
XTruth said:
Psalms 109:13
Example of Judas
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.


The entire book of Psalms was written from about 450 to 1,500 B.C. This is a prophecy written about Judas Iscariot at least 481 years before he betrayed and rejected Jesus. It is further proof that names can be blotted out of God’s book of life; though, the codices, the Septuagint and the Vulgate, read ‘his name,’ instead of ‘their name,’ referring to Judas alone. There is no reason implied why anyone else’s name can’t be blotted out who reject Christ after salvation, especially in view of Exodus 32:32-33 and Revelation 22:18-19. Refer to Luke 10:20 for the reasons why doctrine’s against this belief hold no water. Here, we’re going to prove that Judas was a justified and a saved man; therefore, having his name written with the righteous in the Lamb’s book of life and that he died a condemned and a damned man; therefore, had his name blotted out of the book as said in Psalms 109:13. This alone should be proof that anyone can lose salvation. Unfortunately, it won’t be.

Judas was once saved in his physical life as proved from a number of passages. Judas had to have had his name written in the book of life in order for it to be taken out (Ps.69:25-28; 109:13; Acts 1:20). Judas was a bishop of the church (Ps.109:8, Acts 1:20). He was a familiar friend of Jesus, a man Jesus trusted, and ate of Christ’s bread (Ps.41:9). Jesus gave him power over demon spirits to cast them out and to heal every kind of sickness and disease (Mat.10:1-4, 8; Mk.3:14-15; 6:7; Lk.9:1-2). He was sent forth as a representative of Christ to all of Israel (Mat.10:5-6) and was part of the apostolic ministry (Acts 1:17, 25). He was called to preach (Mat.10:7) and had the peace of God to give to a home as all Christ’s disciples had (Mat.10:13). Judas was an apostle, which means he was divinely called and sent forth by God to do His work (Lk.6:13). He was a sheep in the midst of wolves like all the disciples were (Mat.10:16) and had the Holy Spirit in him (Mat.10:19-20). As a disciple, Judas was ordained by Jesus to the ministry (Mk.3:14) and just as successful at it as the other disciples were (Lk.9:6, 10). He also had eternal life at one time by Jesus’ own admission (Jn.17:2).

So Jesus considered Judas a familiar friend; the Hebrew word for familiar means, to confide in, as to be secure without fear. Many people teach that Judas had the devil in him since birth. Jesus wouldn’t call an unsaved man controlled by the devil “My own familiar friend,†nor would he have confided in or ate bread with such a man. Those who were very intimate and personal friends always did breaking bread with another and partaking it together. Judas had the Holy Spirit and the power of Christ in him to heal and cast out demons. Can a kingdom divided against itself, stand? Would a man possessed by Satan cast out Satan (Mk.3:23-27)? Only saved men are given the Holy Spirit and authority over devils (Jn.3:5-6; Rom.8:9). Judas had been a righteous man, on fire for God before he gave way to sin and damned his soul.

Judas’ soul was damned during the last days of his life and was never renewed again, which is possible to do (Heb.6:6). He fell by transgression from the ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25). Satan had entered him at the end of Christ’s ministry (Lk.22:3; Jn.13:2) and he became a thief (John 12:6). Judas became an adversary and betrayer of Christ (Jn.6:70-71) just as Peter would deny Christ (see Peter’s fall in Mat.26:34, and in Mark 14:27-31 from this book). Neither had happened when first spoken of, so they were still innocent until acted out. Judas’ salvation had been confirmed in John 17:2, while in John 17:12, Jesus states that all will be kept except the son of destruction in order that prophecy would be fulfilled.

How did Judas fall from something he never had (Acts 1:25)? That defeats the very definition. Some translations say ‘turn away’ or ‘turned aside.’ We turn from sin to follow Jesus (Jn.8:12). So it is very true that you can turn from Jesus to follow sin, lest Jesus took our free will in exchange for our salvation. It was also said that Satan entered him. This proves that Judas wasn’t always under the manipulation of him or submitting to Satan’s temptations to transgress against the righteousness of God through stealing, lying, and betrayal. Neither thief nor covetous, greedy person will ever inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10). No one dieing a saved man will be condemned at judgment having Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). All Judas’ labor was in vain, being counted as worthless (Ps.109:11; Phil.2:16). All his righteousness could not save him the day he betrayed Jesus and took his own life (Eze.3:20). He showed no mercy to Jesus and persecuted Him (Ps.109:16).

God is still merciful and just to forgive such a man as this if that man would return to Him. Judas never did. The KJV and RSV translation of Matthew 27:3 does say Judas repented himself after he saw that he was condemned. But the Greek word for ‘repent’ in that verse only means he had deep regret (Turn to Matthew 27:3 for more information about that). Judas was a saved man after coming to Christ and walking with Him. Sin, which is the only thing that has ever condemned man, later condemned the same Judas. His name was in the book of life and was taken out just as anyone who sins against God (Ex.32:33). But let no one who is saved say they aren’t condemned by ‘normal sin’ because it was never against God. All sin is against God and all man’s sin is betrayal to God by saying your authority own is greater than His.

Matthew 27:3
Example of Judas
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,


Judas was an apostle of the gospel of God (Lk.6:13) and filled with the Holy Spirit (Mat.10:19-20). He also became a thief (Jn.12:6), betrayed Jesus (Mat.27:4), and committed suicide (Mat.27:5). Some say he was always filled with the devil, despite his three years of casting out devils. Therefore, destined to be condemned in order to fulfill prophecy (Ps.69:25-28; 109:6-20). God has never destined one for destruction, but chooses everyone to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). Even the Antichrist has a choice. It’s just that God already knew their outcome before it happened(s). Others say that a man who was filled by the Spirit of God and walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry could never be damned to hell for eternity with Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). It rattles the ground from beneath their feet and boggles the minds of the eternal security believing saint’s foundation of thinking. But their pride is too great and grip too strong to let go (Mat.5:5).

Judas never repented to God. He only had self regret as meant by the Greek word ‘metamellomai.’ This word is never used of legitimate repentance. If Judas had a moral change in direction to act or think differently, then the Greek word ‘metanoeo’ would have been used. An example of the Greek word ‘metanoeo’ being used is when John the Baptist was yelling in the wilderness for people to repent (Mat.3:2), and the same ‘repent’ Jesus commanded people to do from the very beginning of His earthly ministry (Mat.4:17). Sometimes, you have to look at the original word, whether in Greek or Hebrew, to be aware of the real meaning. Pastors aren’t always trying to look smart by their word search studies. They’re just looking for the authentic comprehension of the message God wishes to convey.

Not only is this proof of a genuine falling away, but also a warning to the reader that self regret isn’t valid repentance. Judas knew what he did was messed up. He knew and it’s in writing (Mat.27:4). But confessing sin and accepting your responsibility for it doesn’t mean you’ve been atoned for it by God. Judas had self-regret and confessed his sin before man. Unless you go before God, who alone pardons sin, you are not justified and held blameless. (For more on Judas, flip over to Psalms 109:13 in this book).

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Many look at this verse and only see that Jesus keeps all that are His. They are blinded from the exception of the one, who was Judas. Jesus is specifically referring to the twelve hand picked disciples. If salvation can’t be lost and God squeezes everyone in His hand so that none can jump ship, then why couldn’t Judas be kept? Judas was certainly chosen of Jesus and anointed to the ministry and performing miracles just as the other eleven were. If Judas wasn’t included among the saved, then language means nothing here. None was lost except for Judas who fell by transgression (Ps.41:9; 69:25-29; Acts 1:20-25). (Refer to Psalms 109:13 and Matthew 27:3 for the example of Judas).

The ‘son of perdition’ reference of Judas is not the Antichrist in this verse as it is in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Greeks and Hebrews called anyone who had a particular characteristic, destiny, or quality, the child of that thing. This can be seen twice in Ephesians 2:2-3 when believers who won’t submit to God’s authority are called ‘children of disobedience’ and ‘the children of wrath.’ Judas willfully sinned and became lost, it was not conducted by God that Scripture would be fulfilled. Prophecy was written because God knew what would happen. He wishes for none to be lost (2 Pt.3:9).

Lets examine the word ‘lost’ in case anyone doubts how this word is used. The Greek word used for ‘lost,’ which is said of Judas’ eternal state, is ‘apollumi,’ which means to destroy fully, to perish, or lose. This Greek word ‘apollumi’ was translated ‘lose’ in John 12:25: “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal,†and ‘perish’ in John 3:15-16: “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.†Based on this one verse alone, salvation is clearly up to each individual to keep or lose for himself.

Acts 1:25
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


This verse carries on where John 17:12 left off. Judas was saved, but was not kept by Jesus, though that was not the desire of Jesus. Men are free moral agents, and when we rebel to the point of judgment, God is under obligation to enforce His promise of destruction for the wicked (Ex.34:7; Nah.1:2-3). “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn.3:4).†Judas transgressed the law of God and went to the place made for the transgressors when they die. He chose this place after he had been saved. He felt unworthy of eternal life by betraying Christ, though God would’ve eagerly received Him for he has received the most heinous of people (1 Cor.6:11). Judas would’ve had his named immortalized in the foundations of the New Jerusalem, instead of being replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Rev.21:14).†Transgressions of God’s laws are always the way a saved individual becomes unsaved.
Do not ignore the words spoken by Jesus when he revealed that Judas Iscariot was not a believer!

  • 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64
 
So, Judas PERSONALLY WITNESSED the miracles of Christ, was CHOSEN BY Christ, BETRAYED The Christ,....................but didn't BELIEVE. Hmmmm.....................

I believe that the TRUTH of Judas has been deceptively manipulated in this thread. For we even have PETER denying Christ THREE times on the day of His persecution. Would these SAME contend that Peter didn't believe EITHER?

And the FACT that Judas returned to those that gave him his silver and tried to give it BACK, this is NOT an indication that he PLAINLY recognized his 'mistake'? And to recognize such, isn't that a PURE indication that he DID 'believe'?

Amusing and amazing that there are SO MANY different interpretations 'at ever juncture'. How can this be?

Judas WAS 'one of the twelve'. He would CERTAINLY have witnessed the miracles of Christ. Judas was NOT Satan's child, but a 'child OF the Devil. That means that when faced with temptation, he was UNABLE or UNWILLING to resist. How OFTEN do we see those that 'claim' to BE Christians struggle in the SAME MANNER? How often have YOU AND I 'betrayed Christ'. For NEVER FORGET, once you accept Christ INTO your heart, HE LIVES IN YOU. And EVERY TIME that you commit sins, you are, in essence, FORCING Christ to endure these sins HIMSELF.

Judas DID believe. He was simply WEAK in the flesh. Not unlike SO MANY TODAY. His very actions plainly point to the guilt that he suffered AFTER falling to temptation. How many feel guilt BEFORE they sin? It is USUALLY AFTER.

So, instead of attempting to paint Judas into a corner as 'someone SPECIAL'. Let us simply accept the FACT that he was merely 'one of US'. Just another that Christ died for.

We are ALL God's children, it's just that NOT ALL choose to BE Children of God.

Blessings,

MEC
 
mondar said:
Solo said:
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/color] John 6:64

My compliments, excellent scriptural response to the Judas issue.

Except that it is a non-sequitar to the entire conversation.

The issue is whether Judas EVER believed. Not if he became an unbeliever or not. I think we ALL realize the Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever of the Christ at the end, as early as John 6. But when Judas was called, when Judas went out to the various villages, being one of those sent to teach the Jews, was he not a believer then? Is it the work of man to go out with "one cloak" and "accept no money" to spread the teachings of the Christ? To repent and believe? Is that the work of an unbelieving man? Or is this by the power of the Spirit? Is it not true that we can do nothing good without Jesus abiding within us, and clearly, Jesus abided in Judas for at least a time.

The issue on "OSAS" and Judas is NOT whether Judas was an unbeliever, but whether he EVER was a BELIEVER. If he was, then Judas clearly points to a Scriptural example of a very close associate of Jesus falling away in disbelief.

This does not bode well for those OSAS people who think that NO ONE can fall away once they accept Jesus as the Christ. Jesus' abiding presence today does not guarantee His abiding presence in the future, since those who disobey the Commandments are called LIARS IF they insist that the Lord REMAINS in them...

Regards
 
Imagican said:
So, Judas PERSONALLY WITNESSED the miracles of Christ, was CHOSEN BY Christ, BETRAYED The Christ,....................but didn't BELIEVE. Hmmmm.....................

I believe that the TRUTH of Judas has been deceptively manipulated in this thread. For we even have PETER denying Christ THREE times on the day of His persecution. Would these SAME contend that Peter didn't believe EITHER?




Judas WAS 'one of the twelve'. He would CERTAINLY have witnessed the miracles of Christ. Judas was NOT Satan's child, but a 'child OF the Devil. That means that when faced with temptation, he was UNABLE or UNWILLING to resist. How OFTEN do we see those that 'claim' to BE Christians struggle in the SAME MANNER? How often have YOU AND I 'betrayed Christ'. For NEVER FORGET, once you accept Christ INTO your heart, HE LIVES IN YOU. And EVERY TIME that you commit sins, you are, in essence, FORCING Christ to endure these sins HIMSELF.

Judas DID believe. He was simply WEAK in the flesh. Not unlike SO MANY TODAY. His very actions plainly point to the guilt that he suffered AFTER falling to temptation. How many feel guilt BEFORE they sin? It is USUALLY AFTER.
Being near Jesus for any length of time or proximity was no guarantee of believing. Matthew 13:54-58 indicates there were those who even witnessed His childhood, and still did not believe. Jesus made it clear as to why Peter believed when He revealed to Him that it was God the Father that revealed it to him, not close association. As far as miracles, the Pharisees/Saducees witnessed them as well and did not believe.
 
francisdesales said:
mondar said:
Solo said:
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/color] John 6:64

My compliments, excellent scriptural response to the Judas issue.

Except that it is a non-sequitar to the entire conversation.

The issue is whether Judas EVER believed. Not if he became an unbeliever or not. I think we ALL realize the Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever of the Christ at the end, as early as John 6. But when Judas was called, when Judas went out to the various villages, being one of those sent to teach the Jews, was he not a believer then? Is it the work of man to go out with "one cloak" and "accept no money" to spread the teachings of the Christ? To repent and believe? Is that the work of an unbelieving man? Or is this by the power of the Spirit? Is it not true that we can do nothing good without Jesus abiding within us, and clearly, Jesus abided in Judas for at least a time.
Why would this work of Judas be any different than those who did mighty works that in the last day Jesus will claim He never knew?
 
shad said:
Good News Brown said:
Not at all. I tried to word it so it wouldn't appear that way, but I probably should have specified this. My reference to wolves in sheep's clothing was in reference to Judas, and anyone who is a not a genuine believer. I personally don't view one who believes in conditional security as false brethren based on their belief, so my comment has nothing to do with anyone posting here.

thank you for your reply GNB. :-)

There are many kinds of wolves everywhere, according to the Bible. There is no sense talking about it because all of us can abuse the Scriptures to attack our opponents. Jesus says to watch our fruit if we are of God or not, not doctrine or what we say.
I agree with you shad! The wolves can come in all forms, and doctrines. However, there are different opinions on doctrine among fellow believers in the Body of Christ. So I don't perceive one who differs from me as not being a brother or sister in the Lord.
 
Good News Brown said:
francisdesales said:
The issue is whether Judas EVER believed. Not if he became an unbeliever or not. I think we ALL realize the Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever of the Christ at the end, as early as John 6. But when Judas was called, when Judas went out to the various villages, being one of those sent to teach the Jews, was he not a believer then? Is it the work of man to go out with "one cloak" and "accept no money" to spread the teachings of the Christ? To repent and believe? Is that the work of an unbelieving man? Or is this by the power of the Spirit? Is it not true that we can do nothing good without Jesus abiding within us, and clearly, Jesus abided in Judas for at least a time.
Why would this work of Judas be any different than those who did mighty works that in the last day Jesus will claim He never knew?

Now we have entered the realm of men judging the hearts of other men...

Good luck with that, my friend. There is cockle amongst the wheat, and none of US can tell the difference. Let God's angels do the reaping.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Good News Brown said:
francisdesales said:
The issue is whether Judas EVER believed. Not if he became an unbeliever or not. I think we ALL realize the Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever of the Christ at the end, as early as John 6. But when Judas was called, when Judas went out to the various villages, being one of those sent to teach the Jews, was he not a believer then? Is it the work of man to go out with "one cloak" and "accept no money" to spread the teachings of the Christ? To repent and believe? Is that the work of an unbelieving man? Or is this by the power of the Spirit? Is it not true that we can do nothing good without Jesus abiding within us, and clearly, Jesus abided in Judas for at least a time.
Why would this work of Judas be any different than those who did mighty works that in the last day Jesus will claim He never knew?

Now we have entered the realm of men judging the hearts of other men...

Good luck with that, my friend. There is cockle amongst the wheat, and none of US can tell the difference. Let God's angels do the reaping.

Regards
I'm afraid I'm a bit puzzled here. Matthew 7:21-23 indicates clearly that there are those who do mighty works, and not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In addition, Jesus states that He never knew them which is an indication that they were never one of His flock. My question was why would going out with one cloak and no money, be any different than the works mentioned in Matthew 7?

As far as judging one's heart, the scriptures explain where Judas' heart was. So we do know. Are you referring to whether or not he may have repented before killing himself?
 
francisdesales said:
mondar said:
Solo said:
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/color] John 6:64

My compliments, excellent scriptural response to the Judas issue.

Except that it is a non-sequitar to the entire conversation.

The issue is whether Judas EVER believed. Not if he became an unbeliever or not. I think we ALL realize the Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever of the Christ at the end, as early as John 6. But when Judas was called, when Judas went out to the various villages, being one of those sent to teach the Jews, was he not a believer then? Is it the work of man to go out with "one cloak" and "accept no money" to spread the teachings of the Christ? To repent and believe? Is that the work of an unbelieving man? Or is this by the power of the Spirit? Is it not true that we can do nothing good without Jesus abiding within us, and clearly, Jesus abided in Judas for at least a time.

The issue on "OSAS" and Judas is NOT whether Judas was an unbeliever, but whether he EVER was a BELIEVER. If he was, then Judas clearly points to a Scriptural example of a very close associate of Jesus falling away in disbelief.

This does not bode well for those OSAS people who think that NO ONE can fall away once they accept Jesus as the Christ. Jesus' abiding presence today does not guarantee His abiding presence in the future, since those who disobey the Commandments are called LIARS IF they insist that the Lord REMAINS in them...

Regards
Excuse the double negative, but John 6:64 is not non-sequitur. In fact I am going to have to admit that I dont even see it as a close issue.

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.
The verse speaks of them who "believed not." The timing of this lack of faith is the word "beginning." The word "beginning" is not speaking of preknowledge of events for that would be in eternity past. It speaks of the beginning of Jesus ministry. The context is one of a plurality of disciples. The disciples were grumbling.
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?
This grumbling group of disciples were not approaching Jesus in faith. In fact they could not approach Jesus in faith. That is made crystal clear in the very next verse. Verse 65 tells us why the could not come to Jesus in faith.

65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
These faithless followers of Jesus (JUDAS BEING THE GREAT ARCH TYPE) were not able to have faith unless by the enabling intervention of the Father. I wish we all could read greek. If you could look up the word "can" in verse 65, we would see it is the word δÃ…ναÄαι. This word speaks of ability. So then the verse is saying that the false disciples of Jesus are not able to come to Jesus in faith without God first acting by enabling them to come.

So then, Jesus picked Judas knowing "from the beginning" that he was an unbeliever.
 
Good News Brown said:
francisdesales said:
[quote="Good News Brown":xjxk2j0u]
Why would this work of Judas be any different than those who did mighty works that in the last day Jesus will claim He never knew?

Now we have entered the realm of men judging the hearts of other men...

Good luck with that, my friend. There is cockle amongst the wheat, and none of US can tell the difference. Let God's angels do the reaping.

Regards
I'm afraid I'm a bit puzzled here. Matthew 7:21-23 indicates clearly that there are those who do mighty works, and not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In addition, Jesus states that He never knew them which is an indication that they were never one of His flock. My question was why would going out with one cloak and no money, be any different than the works mentioned in Matthew 7?

As far as judging one's heart, the scriptures explain where Judas' heart was. So we do know. Are you referring to whether or not he may have repented before killing himself?[/quote:xjxk2j0u]
Good News Brown,

Thank you for your wise posts concerning God's salvation throughout the various threads. Some reject the truth throughout the Scriptures, and they do so for many reasons; but the crux of their rejection of the truth is for the retention of their current set of beliefs, traditions, and attitudes because of the position that they have obtained in their life. To hold and believe the truth would cause them to leave their current position and/or status attained in their life.

Jesus Himself said that Judas did not believe in John 6:64, and many who were disciples left Jesus because they too did not believe as revealed in John 6:64-66. Thomas the disciple did not believe until after Jesus' resurrection. He believed after seeing the resurrected Christ in John 20:26-29. No one can come to Jesus and believe unless God the Father gives Salvation to them according to Jesus in John 6:65.

Thanks again, and God bless you,

Michael
 
francisdesales said:
Now we have entered the realm of men judging the hearts of other men...
Do not confuse the actual need of discernment and judging another by their fruits to protect brothers and sisters in Christ from false teachings and false teachers.

  • 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:15-20

A believer is to judge all things according to Jesus and the Apostle Paul. The world always cries out, "judge not, lest ye be judged" to cover their sin. Read what the Scriptures say about judging:

  • 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-5

In the Scripture above, Jesus is telling us not to be hypocrites in judging others when we have like sins in our lives. We are to correct our own sins first before judging another of their sins, and assisting them in correcting their sins.

Paul tells us to judge among ourselves:

  • 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

  • 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:1-3

And last but not least, some have been given the gift of the Spirit of discernment.

  • 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
 
Each way this discussion is going it seems that man's will is preserved.

I may have missed part of the discussion.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV

Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
KJV

Biology, religious ceremony, social service do not have the quality of the grace in the Lamb of God. The powers of man are bound within these three legal formats. These three are good but fall short of the death and resurrection and eternal priesthood of Jesus.

The wrath that we possess through the natural desires of the flesh and the mind lead us to think we can please God through religious duty and/or charitable, humanitarian activity or by an act of faith that we choose.

Faith comes at the sound of God's voice/writing of his law on the fleshly tables of the heart. It leads us to hate our own life. We have not power to resist the choice of God in his grace. Even the flesh within us is ultimately conquered through the supremacy of grace. When sin abounds, grace much more abounds. The little children in Christ do not know this supremacy. They are children of God, but they believe they can choose to accept or reject grace. They need to be bound by this limitation for a little time, while the form of their religion is strengthening. Then in the time appointed of the Father, he will call them to lay aside the religion of their fathers and to move toward the work that he will show them.

Joe
 
mondar said:
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.

Very good. Jesus knew. Not you. Not me. No one but God...

Thanks.

Since no one can know the future on whether even THEIR name will remain in the book of life, it is pointless to wonder about others. Jesus knows. We do not.

Regards
 
Solo said:
Do not confuse the actual need of discernment and judging another by their fruits to protect brothers and sisters in Christ from false teachings and false teachers.

I am not.

There is a difference between judging whether a person is walking in faith by their works or not and whether a person's INTERIOR MOTIVE is of pure intent or not.

Matthew 7 points out that many perform good works - and Christ says He never knew them. WE, Solo, do not have the ability to judge. We see the external works, the working of the Spirit. But we do not know the other person's motives. A person can hide them. That is the point of the parable of the weeds and the wheat. WE are not to execute judgment, since WE cannot tell the difference between the wheat and the cockles... That is done only at judgment by the One who KNOWS.

In the Scriptures, you will note, no doubt, that false teachers often make themselves known by their moral actions, such as in Jude. We can know them also by referencing to what has ALREADY been taught (as Paul points out to the Galatians). However, can we know if a pastor at our own community who teaches what we may consider to be truth is REALLY pure of motives while working good deeds? No. We cannot know if a person was a true believer or not. It is moot to judge, because someone fell away, that "he never was a true believer to begin with", since WE are not in the position to make that judgment.

Solo said:
Jesus is telling us not to be hypocrites in judging others when we have like sins in our lives. We are to correct our own sins first before judging another of their sins, and assisting them in correcting their sins.

Agreed. We shouldn't be hypocrites. I am not saying we should not judge - but to judge what we have the ability to judge. YOU do not have the ability to judge another's interior heart. Only God knows whether someone is a "weed" or "wheat".

Solo said:
And last but not least, some have been given the gift of the Spirit of discernment.

  • 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

Discernment is not a gift that extends to knowing the inner heart of another. Those who claim that sort of "ability" leads much too quickly to casting people out, in my opinion, not in calling people together. It is a divisive "ability". We as Christians are to detect false teachings from true teachings. Some receive discernment in interpreting Scriptures or whether another teaches correctly. Whether something is from the devil. Discerning God's Will in their lives, especially. THAT is the role of the gift of discernment...

NOT whether someone's internal heart is following God or not.

Regards
 
How We May Know We are Born of God

by B.B. Caldwell



Many dear souls think that they have been born again because they have joined the church and have been baptized. Every saved person ought to join the church and be baptized. But joining a church and being baptized does not make one a Christian. Water baptism is not designed to give birth to your soul. Only God can give birth to a soul. Water baptism is a symbol, and is designed to picture death, burial, and resurrection. Remember that water baptism made no change in Judas Iscariot, neither in Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8:9.24). The only change these men had was a change of clothes! There must be a change in heart in order to be saved.

Without Bible assurance of your salvation you could neither be happy nor useful. How could you enjoy something you did not know you had, and how could you be happy unless you knew that you were eternally saved? You could never be happy with the thought that you are saved now, but that you might be lost tomorrow. My beloved, there is quite a difference in holding on to a limb and in being in the limb. Born again people are not holding on to Christ: they are in Christ. Read Rom. 8:1-2; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 2:20.

The word “know†is a very interesting word in the New Testament. Forty-two times the word know or its equivalent appears in I John alone. This epistle was written that we might know some things, and the new birth is one of them. In 1 John 2:12 God says: “I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.†Now if there is not some way of knowing that our sins are forgiven us then these words have no meaning. In this epistle John goes on to show how you may know that you are born again.

  1. We know by our faith in Him, In I John 5:1 God says: “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one loveth him loveth him also that is begotten of Him.†The last part of this verse is the result of the first part. The first part of this verse has to do with our faith in Christ, which gives birth to our soul.

    Christ is Prophet. Priest, and King and as such He is able “to save unto the ‘uttermost’ all that come unto God by Him seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb. 7:25).â€Â

    You will observe from I John 5:1 that we are to believe that Jesus is the Christ. He could not be our Jesus (God-Saviour) unless He were the Christ. He could not reveal the way of salvation except He were a prophet. He could not work out that salvation, except He were a priest. He could not confer that salvation upon us, except He were a King. He could not be prophet, Priest, and king, except He were the Christ. Christ is the only begotten Son by generation: we become begotten sons of God by regeneration and adoption.

    Paul says I know whom I have believed and not what I have believed. You see, salvation is in a person and not in a system, or a creed, or in a ceremony. Yes, salvation is in a person, and that person is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  2. We know by the witness of the Spirit. I John 5:10 God says: “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself.†The witness is God’s Spirit dwelling in us and witnessing that Jesus is the Lord; the Christ; the Son of God. So the Witness is God’s Spirit bearing witness with our human spirit that we have been born again. In Gal. 4:6 we read: “And because ye are Sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.†Here we see that believers receive the Spirit of Adoption, “putting them upon the duty of prayer, and enabling them in prayer to eye God as a Father†(Matthew Henry). So we become sons of God by our believing in Christ. If we do not have the witness of God’s Spirit in our hearts then our salvation is very doubtful. (See Rom. 8::9).

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  3. We know by the witness of God’s love. We read in I John 3:14 that “we know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.†If you do not love the people of God, then it is very doubtful if you have been born again.

    The Divine love of God is an “exotic plant that is brought down from the throne of God and placed in all regenerate hearts†(Charles Spurgeon). This imparted love will make you love people who are not lovable. Christian religion will make you love your enemies: it takes an inwrought Divine love to do this. This is where Christianity jumps by Mohammedism. Buddhism. Zoroasterism. Confucianism, and all others.

    This Divine love is the Christian’s badge of identity to the world, and is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost. Please read John 13:35, Rom. 5:5 and I John 1:7-8.

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  4. We know by the witness of overcoming. There are two classes in the New Testament: Overcomers and the overcome. The unsaved are overcome by the devil, while the saved are overcomers. How do they overcome? By their faith in Christ and by the blood of the Lamb. In I John 5:4-5 we read: “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?†Then in Rev. 12:11: “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb.†The Lamb is Christ.

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  5. We know by the witness of God’s word. God cannot lie, and He says in I John 5:1 that if we believe that Jesus is “the Christ†that we are born of God. God is faithful, and He has promised never to leave us nor forsake us. (Heb. 13:5.6)

    In John 5:24 we have another promise: “Verily. Verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death into life.†I believe God’s word, and God says that His word will stand forever (Luke 21:33; Pet. 1:23, 25).

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  6. We know by the witness of new things. When a person is born again everything becomes new in his life. In 11 Cor. 5:17, we read: “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.†A born again person is completely changed and turned around. The things he once loved he now hates, and the things he once hated, he now loves. He has new desires, new appetites, new determinations, new aspirations, new hopes, new thoughts, new ambitions and new companions. A girl once asked me when she came to Christ what she would do with her old companions. I told her when they found out that she was saved that she would not have to shake them, they would shake her. God will give us some Christian companions for our old sinful companions. Sheep and goats do not companion They are too different in desires, and in nature, and in habits. Goats will eat just anything, but not so with sheep. A goat is satisfied anywhere, but not so with sheep.

    [/*:m:1uxfeigk]
  7. We know by the witness of the divine nature. In II Pet. 1:4 we see that the children of God are made “partakers of the divine nature.†This divine nature is the nature of Christ, and the holiness of God. It is the imparting to us of God Himself by the Holy Spirit in the soul.

    This divine nature befits us for heaven. Without it, heaven would be hell. If an unregenerated person should go to heaven without bring born again, without this divine nature, heaven would be a hell to him, and not only that, but he would make heaven a hell for everybody else. How do you think an ungodly person would feel in a holy heaven, in the presence of a holy God, and in the presence of holy angels with all of the saints and the angelic hosts singing “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts� You see we must have a nature to befit us for heaven. This nature is given us in the new birth![/*:m:1uxfeigk]

Notable Quotes

  • Beware, I pray thee, of presuming that thou art saved. If thy heart be renewed, if thou shalt hate the things that thou didst once love, and love the things that thou didst once hate; if thou hast really repented; if there be a thorough change of mind in thee; if thou be born again, then hast thou reason to rejoice: but if there be no vital change, no inward godliness; if there be no love to God, no prayer, no work of the Holy Spirit, then thy saying “I am saved†is but thine own assertion, and it may delude, but it will not deliver thee.  Charles H. Spurgeon

    We all profess that we are bound for heaven, immortality, and glory: but is it any evidence that we really design it if all our thoughts are consumed about the trifles of this world, which we must leave behind us, and have only occasional thoughts of things above?  John Owen

    All the fruits of the Spirit which we are to lay weight upon as evidential of grace, are summed up in charity, or Christian love; because this is the sum of all grace. And the only way, therefore, in which any can know their good estate, is by discerning the exercises of this divine charity in their hearts; for without charity, let men have what gifts you please, they are nothing.  Jonathan Edwards

    Are you born again? This is one of life's most important questions. Jesus Christ said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    It is not enough to reply, "I belong to the church; I suppose I'm a Christian." Thousands of nominal Christians show none of the signs of being born again which the Scriptures have given us; many listed in the First Epistle of John.  J.C. Ryle



Author

This sermon by B.B. Caldwell was taken from the bulletin of Thirteenth Street Baptist Church in Ashland, KY, Pastor Henry Mahan, from the winter of 1981.Since Brother Caldwell passed away in 1976, I cannot be sure exactly when it was originally preached. I heard Brother Caldwell, and Brother Mahan several times, and was blessed by both.

Edited by Charles Woodruff for Word of Truth---June 10, 2006

Retrieved from http://www.the-highway.com/bornagain_Caldwell.html
 
What they believed? Well we believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Judas hung himself before Jesus was crucified. I'm sure Judas was a disciple, a pupil, but Jesus said he was a devil. I take it literally; that he was the devil's seed, put on this earth to accomplish God's will. He didn't know it, that's the thing. When he realized it, he hung himself.

I don't think OSAS and eternal life are the same thing. Those who are ordained to eternal life believe, but that's not saying anything about salvation. The cares of the world and the desire for riches can rob men of salvation. Thistles can choke the word, leaving the branches without water. The withered branches are gathered up and cast into the fire.

Perhaps the righteous man will get a beating. Perhaps he will not survive the fire. We are to go through the fire to be refined, but if what we have stored up is wood and hay and stubble, then it will not pass through, but it will be burned up. But then Paul says the man himself will be saved. So I see it that as long as we continue to believe, we will be saved, but we may lose our reward. It may be a seat at the table. It may be a better seat. It may be some will be cast out into the outer darkness - there men will weep and gnash their teeth. What we know is that when the cares of the world occupy our mind, then our mind is not on Christ, and the mind that is not on Christ is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But, as Paul said, we are not in the flesh, we are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you. So I think we should not lower our defenses, but put on the entire armor of God, aiming for the higher gifts, knowing we have the new life in ourselves, never letting the devil find any opportunity to accuse us. In a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize. So run that you may obtain it. Let's make sure the Lord finds us believing and doing the will of God when he returns.

The sheep enter the kingdom and find pasture. The goats trod down the grass underfoot. They pollute the water with their feet.
 
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